Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[ezrider]

Speak for yourself!

I am a son of God.

You are what you believe.

Be it unto you according to your faith.

As a man thinks in his heart so is he.

I am a new creation, all things have become new for me, in Christ.

Have a nice day!


JLB

Good, I'm glad to hear you acknowledge that you are a new creation in Christ, and that you consider yourself a son of God. I take no exception to that at all; for by Faith I also consider myself to be a son of God, and a new living creature by the Spirit of God, created in his image. But I am curious as to a few things about your statements that maybe you would be so kind as to clarify them for me.

If you are a new creation in Christ, then is not your old nature destroyed by the Spirit of Christ? Do you deny that before Christ you were considered according to the flesh a man of sin?

If you believe yourself to be a son of God, then you must be alive in the resurrection of Christ, for God is a God of the living, and not of the dead (Matthew 22:31-32). So if you are living by the resurrection of Christ and as you claim to be a son of God, then why do you say the resurrection has not happened? And if you are not living in the resurrection, then how can you claim to be a son? Christ is the resurrection (John 11:25).

If you believe yourself to be a son of God, then you would have to say that the Spirit of Christ dwells in your heart. As the scripture says that God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying Abba, Father (Gal 4:6-7). By claiming to be a son of God, you are therefore declaring that the Spirit of Christ dwells within your heart and thus the Lord is present with you. God is a Spirit (John 4:24), so if the Spirit of Christ already be with you, why do you then look for another?

 

[DRS81]

In this respect, I would have to say there truly is a pre-trib rapture, just not in the way most expect it to come. The rapture is not about flying away or escaping from any tribulation. The rapture is your spiritual awakening. The moment you are truly “born again,” alive in the resurrection of Christ, led and instructed by the Spirit of God. When faith becomes more than the tenants of ones own beliefs, but the acceptance and trust in the Lord’s personal guidance in your spiritual walk. When we give way to our own understanding to wait upon the Lord’s. The idea that we shall be caught up to meet them in the air I think is better understood in the light of being caught up in the Spirit, like as unto the day of Pentecost, for in the Lord, we are to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh. And while flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God, those who walk after the Spirit have already entered therein by Faith.

While I have no hopes or expectations of bypassing any future tribulation that may befall us in the flesh, I can rest assured in Faith knowing that the Spirit of the Lord is with me.

Hi ezrider. Post-trib rapture is biblical, and I can prove it to you. Ask me anything. The rapture however is not your spiritual awakening, it's being caught up in the air with Jesus Christ. You have to be (very careful) when using biblical words, or you will confuse yourself and others. When we are caught up in rapture we are not only caught up in spirit, we are also caught up physically in our bodies. The rapture occurs in the great tribulation after the sixth seal opens. - DRS81.

Correct Wording
1. Being Born Again - Spiritual Awakening
2. Rapture - Being caught up in the air physically with Jesus Christ in the great tribulation
3. Spiritual Resurrection I - Being born again/Spiritual
4. Physical Resurrection II - The dead rising in Christ at rapture time/Physical

 

[BigSodaExposer]

I thought the temple has to be rebuilt and daily sacrifices reoccurring before the man of sin is revealed?

 

[for_his_glory]

A rapture as some like to call it, but the Bible calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, will take place, but not the way others are teaching it to be before a great seven year tribulation as no one will know when it will happen, not even Jesus himself will know. Scripture does give us signs to look towards and to be watchful. There is no mention in scripture of a great seven year tribulation as we will always have tribulations until Jesus comes for us. There is no literal 1000-year reign with Christ either, because we reign with Christ the first time we ask him into our heart as we become joint heirs with him. We will face much tribulation before Jesus returns as Gods word says this world will wax worse and those who endure until the end are those who will be saved, which means the end of all things this world will go through before the new heaven and new Jerusalem can be ushered down from heaven.

Matthew 24:36 but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:37 but as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

Matthew 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Matthew 24:13 but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(For a complete study please visit my website and click on Second Coming of Christ as it's to long to post in a forum)

 

[veryberry]

I believe the body of Christ started in secret with Paul and the body of Christ will end in secret at anytime.....We are nothing but a space(between words) or a comma, perios, semi-colon, etc in Gods prophetic program

 

[JLB]

I thought the temple has to be rebuilt and daily sacrifices reoccurring before the man of sin is revealed?

Yes sir!

 

[DRS81]

I thought the temple has to be rebuilt and daily sacrifices reoccurring before the man of sin is revealed?

Correct.

I believe the body of Christ started in secret with Paul and the body of Christ will end in secret at anytime...

Hi veryberry. What do you mean by this statement. - DRS81

 

[veryberry]

What Paul preached in his 13 epistles were all a mystery that was kept secret since the world began.

Rom 16:25 - Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

This Mystery will soon come to end and Prophecy will pick back up...

Peter, preached according to what was known since the world began

Acts 3:21 - Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

If you follow the prophetic course, once Israel rejected Jesus Christ at the stoning of Stephen, the wrath of God was to follow. But instead of pouring out wrath, Paul was intercepted and converted putting a hold on the prophetic timeline, and then came what was kept secret...Never before prophesied about.

 

[JLB]

What Paul preached in his 13 epistles were all a mystery that was kept secret since the world began.

Rom 16:25 - Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

This Mystery will soon come to end and Prophecy will pick back up...

Peter, preached according to what was known since the world began

Acts 3:21 - Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

If you follow the prophetic course, once Israel rejected Jesus Christ at the stoning of Stephen, the wrath of God was to follow. But instead of pouring out wrath, Paul was intercepted and converted putting a hold on the prophetic timeline, and then came what was kept secret...Never before prophesied about.

All of the whole Old Testament prophesied and spoke of this Mystery concerning Christ and the Church.


Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. Luke 24:44


JLB

 

[veryberry]

All of the whole Old Testament prophesied and spoke of this Mystery concerning Christ and the Church.


Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. Luke 24:44


JLB

1 Cor 2: 6-8

6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

It was Kept secret....It was not prophesied..

 

[Eugene]

A Temple Not Necessary For Sacrifice.
What type of sacrifice do you imagine Israel will be sacrificing thirty days prior to the tribulation that will be taken away?

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Without a temple, presently the Jews have taken the scripture of Hosea 14:2 as sacrifice. ". . we render the calves of our lips." This is much like Hebrews 13:15. "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."

After seventy years captivity, the first thing Israel did was to return to Jerusalem and build an altar to sacrifice; the temple had been burned according to 2 Chronicles 36:19. Ezra 3:2-3 Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God. 3 And they set the altar upon his bases; for fear was upon them because of the people of those countries: and they offered burnt offerings thereon unto the LORD, even burnt offerings morning and evening.

The temple was not rebuilt yet. Ezra 3:4-6 They kept also the feast of tabernacles, as it is written, and offered the daily burnt offerings by number, according to the custom, as the duty of every day required; 5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD. 6 From the first day of the seventh month began they to offer burnt offerings unto the LORD. But the foundation of the temple of the LORD was not yet laid.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

A rapture as some like to call it, but the Bible calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air, will take place, but not the way others are teaching it to be before a great seven year tribulation as no one will know when it will happen, not even Jesus himself will know. Scripture does give us signs to look towards and to be watchful. There is no mention in scripture of a great seven year tribulation as we will always have tribulations until Jesus comes for us. There is no literal 1000-year reign with Christ either, because we reign with Christ the first time we ask him into our heart as we become joint heirs with him. We will face much tribulation before Jesus returns as Gods word says this world will wax worse and those who endure until the end are those who will be saved, which means the end of all things this world will go through before the new heaven and new Jerusalem can be ushered down from heaven.

Matthew 24:36 but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:37 but as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

Matthew 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Matthew 24:13 but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(For a complete study please visit my website and click on Second Coming of Christ as it's to long to post in a forum)

No mention of 7 year tribulation?
Daniel Chapter 9

No mention of 1000 year reign of Christ?
Revelation 20:6

No hope of escape from the greatest woes this Earth will ever face?
God intends to put his church through the time of the destruction of the world?

What verses do you use to back this up?

 

[for_his_glory]

No mention of 7 year tribulation?
Daniel Chapter 9

No mention of 1000 year reign of Christ?
Revelation 20:6

No hope of escape from the greatest woes this Earth will ever face?
God intends to put his church through the time of the destruction of the world?

What verses do you use to back this up?

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will face much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord and be His witnesses as a faithful servant.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about Papal Rome (not Catholics) ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. We can only repent through Gods Spirit and if that Spirit dwells in the hearts of the believers then who would be left for anyone to repent if they wanted to if we were already gone

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation of Papal Rome’s rule (not Catholics). This is Gods rapture of his bride or as scripture calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring great tribulations, even to death; we had to go through before the end of days

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will face much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord and be His witnesses as a faithful servant.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about Papal Rome (not Catholics) ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. We can only repent through Gods Spirit and if that Spirit dwells in the hearts of the believers then who would be left for anyone to repent if they wanted to if we were already gone

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation of Papal Rome’s rule (not Catholics). This is Gods rapture of his bride or as scripture calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring great tribulations, even to death; we had to go through before the end of days

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

After Chapter 3 in Revelation, the Church is never mentioned once.
You are reading into something that is not there.

 

[JLB]

1 Cor 2: 6-8

6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

It was Kept secret....It was not prophesied..

Simeon saw in the scriptures and in an 8 day old child, this marvelous Mystery.


25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, 28 he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said: 29 "Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word; 30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation. Luke 2:25-30


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

After Chapter 3 in Revelation, the Church is never mentioned once.
You are reading into something that is not there.

Pretrib is a nice theory that was first taught around 1830, but also a false teaching that will cause many to fall away, 2Thess 2:3. If that be the case that we the saints of God are taken out of here before chapter 4 then why does everything else have to happen from 4-22, especially the mark of the beast in chapter 13, the seven trumpet calls and even the harvest judgement in chapter 14. Why wouldn't God just make an immediate end to all things right after the moment we are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds and at that time usher down the new heaven and new Jerusalem.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Pretrib is a nice theory that was first taught around 1830, but also a false teaching that will cause many to fall away, 2Thess 2:3. If that be the case that we the saints of God are taken out of here before chapter 4 then why does everything else have to happen from 4-22, especially the mark of the beast in chapter 13, the seven trumpet calls and even the harvest judgement in chapter 14. Why wouldn't God just make an immediate end to all things right after the moment we are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds and at that time usher down the new heaven and new Jerusalem.

There is a promise to the Jews that needs to be fulfilled.
Revelation is full of Jewish symbolism and they will see it in the end.
Daniel's 70 weeks, there is still a week to go.

 

[JLB]

ez rider said -

If you believe yourself to be a son of God, then you must be alive in the resurrection of Christ, for God is a God of the living, and not of the dead (Matthew 22:31-32). So if you are living by the resurrection of Christ and as you claim to be a son of God, then why do you say the resurrection has not happened? And if you are not living in the resurrection, then how can you claim to be a son? Christ is the resurrection (John 11:25).

I have faith that I am a son of God.

I will see the reality of what I am hoping for, when I am literally raised from the dead, and receive an immortal body that will never die, and shines as the sun. [Luke 20:36,Matthew 13:43]

The resurrection will take place when Jesus returns on the last Day.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

When Jesus Christ returns, it will be on that Day we who believe, will experience the reality of the salvation, that we are hoping for, that was paid for, by Christ Jesus on the cross.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

For when we see Him, we shall be like Him...

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2


If you don't have a body that shines like the sun, and will never die, then the Resurrection has not taken place yet.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

There is a promise to the Jews that needs to be fulfilled.
Revelation is full of Jewish symbolism and they will see it in the end.
Daniel's 70 weeks, there is still a week to go.

What is that promise to the Jews that needs to be fulfilled?
Where do you see Rev as only being Jewish symbolism since after Christ ascended to sit at the right hand of God the word comes to both Jew and gentile as being the same word as Gods word never changes and given to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles.

Daniel 9:24-27 establishes the timing of the first and second advents of Christ referred to as 70 weeks of years. The starting point of the 70 weeks of years was with the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, (Daniel 9:25). Gabriel gave Daniel this prophecy during the time of Israel's exile in Babylon right before the first remnant of Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem around 536 B.C. under Zerubbabel. Cyrus, King of Persia, issued a decree to Zerubbabel to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem around 538 B.C., (2 Chronicles 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1-3; and Ezra 6:1-5). Jerusalem was in ruins at this time, having been destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar 70 years earlier in 586 B.C. The captivity had begun in 605 B.C., before the destruction of Jerusalem, when Nebuchadnezzar took Daniel and others to Babylon as hostages, Daniel 1:1-4.

The 490 years will be divided into three periods as follows: seven weeks (49 years) plus sixty-two weeks (434 years) plus one week (7 years). At the end of the first two periods (69 weeks or 483 years), the Messiah will be cut off, reference to the crucifixion, and that both Jerusalem and the Temple will be destroyed. The prophecy concludes by focusing on the last week of years. It says that following the death of the Messiah and the destruction of Jerusalem, "the prince who is to come" will make a covenant with the Jewish people that will enable them to reinstitute their sacrificial system. This prince will come from the same people who destroyed the Temple (the Romans). 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 reveals the prince who is to come is that of the man of lawlessness, son of perdition.

Daniels first half of the 70 weeks:
First Advent of Messiah: From rebuilding the Temple to Messiah come
Daniels 69 weeks are 483 Solar years (Daniel 9:25),
7 weeks of years was 49 years rebuilding Jerusalem around 457B.C. (Ezra 7:11-26; 9:9)
62 weeks of years was the period of time leading up to Messiah the Prince in the beginning of his ministry in 27A.D. up to the crucifixion in 31A.D., (Daniel 9:26)

From the cross to the second advent of Messiah was a prophetic gap being the present Church age (Gentiles) which was a mystery not revealed to Daniel, Ephesians 3:4-10

Daniel's second half of the 70th week
The second advent of Messiah: From the time of Christ ministry to the cross
7 Lunar years or of great tribulations as described in (Daniel 7:13,14; 9:26,27; 12:1; Matthew Chapter 24). A covenant between Israel and the one who is to come (son of perdition)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Numbers, numbers, numbers, everyone has numbers.
I could pull up a dozen sites that would give different numbers, all claiming to be right.
I have numbers too.
Mine say that the final 7 years of tribulation establishes the nation of Israel under the Messiah, and the church (the age of grace) is already gone.