Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[Willie T]

I was just thinking (I do that sometimes).
What does God's Word tell us about what his church will be doing during the great tribulation?

They were continuing on with His work. That's why, today, 2000 years later, we have the Christianity they built upon during the tribulations they faced.

 

[reba]

where does God tell the church there is "the great tribulation'?

Christian in the middle east, China, the Sudan, are under great tribulation now and many other places...

 

[for_his_glory]

This has been interesting. But the two camps (pre and post) had better be careful..... All they might end up "proving" is that if pre is false... and post is false... then the "Rapture" may just end up also being false, too.

All we can do is give scripture to support either side and let it up to others to what they want to believe. I only speak against a pretrib that I use to believed in, not the rapture itself, because I don't want anyone to be taken as a thief in the night, but to stand strong in their faith, which is Christ Jesus, as all things must come to pass first before Christ returns.

 

[Willie T]

Not getting that..... What do you mean, "taken as a thief in the night"? There nothing in the Bible about anything like that.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

where does God tell the church there is "the great tribulation'?

Christian in the middle east, China, the Sudan, are under great tribulation now and many other places...

Matthew 24:21;

Daniel 12:1;

 

[reba]

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
I do not see the word the there

 

[Deborah13]

As soon as the 69th week was finished Messiah was cut off. I don't see what you are talking about in this. Messiah was cut off (crucified) as soon as the 69th week was completed.

So if the Messiah was crucified 'after' the 69th week and it was soon after (although I don't see where it says 'soon' after) then He was crucified in the following week, the 70th week. The new covenant took effect when He died and was resurrected, in the 70th week. But we know that scripture says that it began with the preaching of John the Baptist. We know that Jesus' ministry lasted 3.5 years, He was crucified, the apostles preached only to the Jews another 3.5 years and then Stephen was stoned (Saul/Paul was present) and after this the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles by Paul.
That being the 70th week.
Verse 24, tells us that there are 70wks determined for Daniels people (the Jews) and for six things to happen. I see that all these things did happen during those 70 wks., specifically the Messiah's ministry and death and resurrection. I will take the list from Adam Clarke's Commentary because I believe he has done well in explaining clearly and easily understood.
In Daniel 9:24 there are six events mentioned which should be the consequences of the incarnation of our Lord: -

I. To finish (לכלא lechalle, to restrain), the transgression which was effected by the preaching of the Gospel, and pouring out of the Holy Ghost among men.

II. To make an end of sins; rather ולהתם חטאות ulehathem chataoth, "to make an end of sin-offerings," which our Lord did when he offered his spotless soul and body on the cross once for all.

III. To make reconciliation (ולכפר ulechapper, "to make atonement or expiation") for iniquity; which he did by the once offering up of himself.

IV. To bring in everlasting righteousness, צדק עלמים tsedek olamim, that is, "the righteousness, or righteous One, of ages;" that person who had been the object of the faith of mankind, and the subject of the predictions of the prophets through all the ages of the world.

V. To seal up (ולחתם velachtom, "to finish or complete") the vision and prophecy; that is, to put an end to the necessity of any farther revelations, by completing the canon of Scripture, and fulfilling the prophecies which related to his person, sacrifice, and the glory that should follow.

VI. And to anoint the Most Holy, קדש קדשים kodesh kodashim, "the Holy of holies." משיח mashach, to anoint, (from which comes משיח mashiach, the Messiah, the anointed one), signifies in general, to consecrate or appoint to some special office. Here it means the consecration or appointment of our blessed Lord, the Holy One of Israel, to be the Prophet, Priest, and King of mankind.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/daniel/9.htm

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
I do not see the word the there

Shall I put it in there for you?

 

[Willie T]

Shall I put it in there for you?

That would be the typical way of trying to make verses say what they do not say.

 

[for_his_glory]

reba, I have been asking that question for years, but yet have never got an answer as there is nowhere in scripture that speaks of some "Great Tribulation" that the saints of God will be taken out before it takes place. Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21; John 16:33; Rev 7:14; Matthew 24:15, 29;Rev 6:9-11 are just a few of many scriptures that speak about us going through much tribulation until the time of the end when Christ returns. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.None of us are saved yet, but only sealed by the Holy Spirit, but can break that seal only through blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[Deborah13]

That would be the typical way of trying to make verses say what they do not say.

Don't be too harsh with us, Willie. Sometimes we all can get MSS, the "that's my story and I'm stickin' to it" syndrome.

 

[for_his_glory]

They were continuing on with His work. That's why, today, 2000 years later, we have the Christianity they built upon during the tribulations they faced.

I thought Christianity was built upon the rock which is Christ Jesus that while we are enduring all tribulations and trials we will face that Christ is our faith that we stand on as we fear not that which has to come as we stand for the sake of Christ as being a faithful servant right up to the end.

 

[for_his_glory]

Shall I put it in there for you?

Right there is the problem as many try to add to the word or take away from it, but refuse to read it as it is written. God gives strict warning to those who do that, Rev 22:19.

 

[for_his_glory]

Shall I put it in there for you?

Right there is the problem as many try to add to the word or take away from it, but refuse to read it as it is written. God gives strict warning to those who do that, Rev 22:19. There will be no excuses when we stand in judgement of those things we have taught others and for the things we allowed ourselves to believe as each of us has the word of God and need to study for ourselves as the Holy Spirit teaches us all things.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That would be the typical way of trying to make verses say what they do not say.

It wouldn't be much different than what you're saying.

 

[for_his_glory]

Shall I put it in there for you?

Right there is the problem as many try to add to the word or take away from it, but refuse to read it as it is written. God gives strict warning to those who do that, Rev 22:19. There will be no excuses when we stand in judgement of those things we have taught others and for the things we allowed ourselves to believe as each of us has the word of God and need to study for ourselves as the Holy Spirit teaches us all things.

 

[Willie T]

I thought Christianity was built upon the rock which is Christ Jesus that while we are enduring all tribulations and trials we will face that Christ is our faith that we stand on as we fear not that which has to come as we stand for the sake of Christ as being a faithful servant right up to the end.

No, Christianity goes nowhere if we all do not do as Jesus designed it to work... by each of us taking Him out into the world by the way we live in that world.

 

[Willie T]

It wouldn't be much different than what you're saying.

You're right. In this case, it would only be one word different. But that added word is enough to mislead millions.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So everyone wants to gain up on Rollo.
Okay, I'll just write it all down in my Hush-Hush magazine.
The, the, the, the, the, the

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

So you all can just go out there and tell everyone that there is no pre-trib rapture, and then tell them something that will edify them.
What will it be?
Doom and gloom?
That's what you all sound like to me.