Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[Willie T]

Seriously. In one church I attended, what "being faithful" constituted was showing up at the building each time the doors were unlocked.

 

[gr8grace3]

uhm then if john was represented as the church where does it say that plainly? john also was told to write to those others, and he also had to know and understand that vision as best as he could. btw the church didn't teach scholfiedism until well uncle cy came along.

This is way before The great teacher Scofield. (August 19, 1843 – July 24, 1921)

Ephraem, the Syrian (306-373 AD)http://www.according2prophecy.org/ancient.html

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

 

[jasonc]

Ephraem, the Syrian (306-373 AD)http://www.according2prophecy.org/ancient.html

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

This is not proof, but it sure defeats the Idea that the pre-trib rapture is new.

uhm the trib was 250 years long. see the man Justin martyr for that and he was only 100 years after john and taught no such rapture. uhm this man was an early catholic. there will be something from them. I don't want pick and choose what he said. I will read it. my self.wiki has nothing on end times from him.odd if he wrote that and just that. which he didn't.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephrem_the_Syrian

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/St._Ephraem

he is a bit out there. it wouldn't listen to him much since well he did use 3 Corinthians in his bible! nothing there about any endtimes commentary from that place.

if you see in that please show me that. the rcc isn't hiding much about him and doesn't even say he is a heretic. but im not going to give much credence to that man given what he believed as canonical.

 

[Malachi]

The only time (whenever that might come) that there is going to be any mass skyward exodus is the day Jesus returns.....

According to Scripture, here's what happens the day Jesus returns WITH His saints (Rev 19):
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

What we see here is a "skyward descent" not a "skyward exodus". So the question for the naysayers is "How and when did those saints clothed in "linen, white and clean" get into Heaven, so that they could accompany Christ to earth at His Second Coming"?

 

[Eugene]

It's all very simple.
Just wait until the tribulation begins, and then start counting the days.
If you are mid-trib, you will know what day the rapture is.
If you are post-trib, you will know what day the rapture is.
But pre-trib?
1 Thessalonians 5:2;
"...for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night".

Rollo – It’s all very simple.
Just wait until the tribulation begins, and then start counting the days.
Eugene – Tribulation continues throughout this age; just read the judgment of the churches in Revelation Chapters Two & Three, yet there is a major indicator coming and that is Dan 12:11. “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.” This places the middle of the week 1290 days away. When we see the daily sacrifice reestablished in Israel there is a time it will be taken from them.

Rollo - 1 Thes 5:2 "...for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night".
Eugene - When is this Day of the Lord, or Lord’s Day (Rev 1:10) to be? I believe it is the time Jesus receives His own throne in Rev 4:2. According to Heb 8:1 Jesus presently sits on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens. Notice that there are some saints already with Jesus (Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6) when that throne was set in heaven. Does this occur prior to “Great Tribulation that shall be shown John to be hereafter from Rev 4:1”?

 

[jasonc]

This is way before The great teacher Scofield. (August 19, 1843 – July 24, 1921)

Ephraem, the Syrian (306-373 AD)http://www.according2prophecy.org/ancient.html

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

have you read his commentary. one paragraph on some books compare him to henry and adam Clarke on that same book.

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/srn/view.cgi?bk=39&ch=24
for some one of some great ability which he didn't.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/srn/view.cgi?bk=39&ch=24
clarkes above.

so you believe that law of moses is greater then the blood as that is what schofied taught. the church would be in heaven and the law would return yet paul says otherwise in Hebrew epistle.
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/e...ament-sacrificial-system-by-loraine-boettner/
spafer met and was a student of cis.

http://books.google.com/books?id=4Z... teach literal millennial sacrifices&f=false

 

[for_his_glory]

So if the Messiah was crucified 'after' the 69th week and it was soon after (although I don't see where it says 'soon' after) then He was crucified in the following week, the 70th week. The new covenant took effect when He died and was resurrected, in the 70th week. But we know that scripture says that it began with the preaching of John the Baptist. We know that Jesus' ministry lasted 3.5 years, He was crucified, the apostles preached only to the Jews another 3.5 years and then Stephen was stoned (Saul/Paul was present) and after this the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles by Paul.
That being the 70th week.
Verse 24, tells us that there are 70wks determined for Daniels people (the Jews) and for six things to happen. I see that all these things did happen during those 70 wks., specifically the Messiah's ministry and death and resurrection. I will take the list from Adam Clarke's Commentary because I believe he has done well in explaining clearly and easily understood.
In Daniel 9:24 there are six events mentioned which should be the consequences of the incarnation of our Lord: -

I. To finish (לכלא lechalle, to restrain), the transgression which was effected by the preaching of the Gospel, and pouring out of the Holy Ghost among men.

II. To make an end of sins; rather ולהתם חטאות ulehathem chataoth, "to make an end of sin-offerings," which our Lord did when he offered his spotless soul and body on the cross once for all.

III. To make reconciliation (ולכפר ulechapper, "to make atonement or expiation") for iniquity; which he did by the once offering up of himself.

IV. To bring in everlasting righteousness, צדק עלמים tsedek olamim, that is, "the righteousness, or righteous One, of ages;" that person who had been the object of the faith of mankind, and the subject of the predictions of the prophets through all the ages of the world.

V. To seal up (ולחתם velachtom, "to finish or complete") the vision and prophecy; that is, to put an end to the necessity of any farther revelations, by completing the canon of Scripture, and fulfilling the prophecies which related to his person, sacrifice, and the glory that should follow.

VI. And to anoint the Most Holy, קדש קדשים kodesh kodashim, "the Holy of holies." משיח mashach, to anoint, (from which comes משיח mashiach, the Messiah, the anointed one), signifies in general, to consecrate or appoint to some special office. Here it means the consecration or appointment of our blessed Lord, the Holy One of Israel, to be the Prophet, Priest, and King of mankind.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/daniel/9.htm

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

These verses shows us that the timing from Ezra to the cross was 490 days as within that time Ezra was reestablishing the law in Jerusalem until Jesus had fulfilled the end of transgression, made an end to sin, made reconciliation for iniquity and bring everlasting righteousness and to seal up the prophecy to fulfill the law through the cross.

 

[Eugene]

. . show me scripture where we are taken out before Rev chapter 4 . .

for_his_glory, I might suggest that since we know that Jesus is in heaven in Rev 4:1, and asks John to come up to be shown things that must happen thereafter from that point in time, there are also the 24 elders (Rev 4:4) and 4 beasts (Rev 4:6) with Him, and all this before the tribulation. Who are they? In Rev 5:9 they sing "(Thou) hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. If they are there with Jesus at Rev 4:1, how did they get there if not caught up?

 

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory,

Can you show us where, between Rev 4 and Rev 22, the Church is being taken out of this world? That really is the key issue.

The terms "the Church" or "church" or "churches" will not be found after Rev 3:22, and when Christ mentions "churches" once again in Rev 22:16, it is for a summation of all that is in this book of prophecy as was to be presented to the then existing churches: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches" (see Rev 1:11).

The reason the Church or churches have no place in Revelation after chapter 3 is because the Church is already in Heaven. Those are the saints which then return with Christ in Rev 19:14 as "armies" after they become "the wife of the Lamb" (Rev 19:7-9).

I will post it again since you might have missed it.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face much tribulation before we enter into the kingdom of God. There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture defining a seven year Great Tribulation. Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will face much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord and be His witnesses as a faithful servant.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about Papal Rome (not Catholics) ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. We can only repent through Gods Spirit and if that Spirit dwells in the hearts of the believers then who would be left for anyone to repent if they wanted to if we were already gone

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation of Papal Rome’s rule (not Catholics). This is Gods rapture of his bride or as scripture calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring great tribulations, even to death; we had to go through before the end of days

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[gr8grace3]

uhm the trib was 250 years long. see the man Justin martyr for that and he was only 100 years after john and taught no such rapture. uhm this man was an early catholic. there will be something from them. I don't want pick and choose what he said. I will read it. my self.wiki has nothing on end times from him.odd if he wrote that and just that. which he didn't.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephrem_the_Syrian

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/St._Ephraem

he is a bit out there. it wouldn't listen to him much since well he did use 3 Corinthians in his bible! nothing there about any endtimes commentary from that place.

if you see in that please show me that. the rcc isn't hiding much about him and doesn't even say he is a heretic. but im not going to give much credence to that man given what he believed as canonical.

Some one taught the idea of the pre trib before Darby. It is not that new is my point. We can't ascribe the idea to a few men just a few years ago. 1000 yrs before Darby, the idea was out there. Right or wrong......the idea was 1000yrs or so before Darby or Scofield. They did not come up with it.

 

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory, I might suggest that since we know that Jesus is in heaven in Rev 4:1, and asks John to come up to be shown things that must happen thereafter from that point in time, there are also the 24 elders (Rev 4:4) and 4 beasts (Rev 4:6) with Him, and all this before the tribulation. Who are they? In Rev 5:9 they sing "(Thou) hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. If they are there with Jesus at Rev 4:1, how did they get there if not caught up?

The background for the 24 elders is found in 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; and 26:12-19. In chapter 24, the Levitical priesthood is divided into 24 divisions, according to the schedule of their service: they were officials of the sanctuary and of the house of God. In Chapter 25, the Levitical priests are further divided into 24 divisions, responsible for the worship of the sanctuary, and in particular the music of that worship. In Chapter 26, the Levitical priests are again divided into 24 gatekeepers for the house of God.

They were responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship. They were also to stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. As it was with the twenty-four divisions of the priests in the book of Chronicles, so it is with the twenty-four elders in the book of Revelation. They are responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship; they also stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

The twenty-four elders, then, are elders--elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God--who are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

Scripture has identified the twenty-four elders that surround the throne as elders, but what is the significance of those elders around the throne? Why are they there? The answer is that the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church. There is a correspondence between the twenty-four elders above and the office of elder below. This means that the government of the church is patterned after heaven itself. As there are elders in heaven above, so there are elders on earth below.


The seven Spirits are wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, power and fear (respect) of the Lord. The four beasts represent that of the four Gospels being taught in the governing Church here on Earth that is patterned after heaven.

 

[for_his_glory]

Did you actually read Post #225? The Greek has "The Tribulation, The Great One" (thlipsis megale). Had the KJV translators done a strict literal translation, you would be reading exactly that. Quibbling over "The" does not alter the fact that this is an entirely unique and unimaginably terrible period in human history. Hence "The Great Tribulation". No one has seen anything like it since creation.

It's only when "The" is emphasized and taught to be something that happens after the Rapture is what I have a problem with as no where in scripture does it say so. The Rapture happens around Rev 14 during the harvest judgement after the seventh trumpet is sounded. So you are saying the Greek changed the word of God and added "The".

 

[jasonc]

Some one taught the idea of the pre trib before Darby. It is not that new is my point. We can't ascribe the idea to a few men just a few years ago. 1000 yrs before Darby, the idea was out there. Right or wrong......the idea was 1000yrs or so before Darby or Scofield. They did not come up with it.

uhm, there is no evidence that your man said that. I went to the catholics for what he did teach. he had an entire bible commentary and most of its gone. no links there to what he said. im not buying it that he said that.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yeah, like I said..... THAT is certainly in the Bible, but not an instance of people being taken like thieves in the night....... or whatever it was you said that seemed so confusing.

.

What I meant by taken as a thief in the night was in light of not being prepared as the Bride Christ returns for. It's not some secret Rapture like you see in those Left Behind series, but that when Christ returns every eye will see Him and every knee will bow, but for many it will be to late as there are no second chances after Christ returns in the clouds. Since the Holy Spirit dwells in us and speaks through us to witness to others confirming Gods word who would be left to witness to anyone. When Christ returns it is finished.

 

[Edward]

42

 

[for_his_glory]

I took your post to indicate that our "job" was to simply "stand fast" and believe (not real sure, specifically, how people do that), and God would take care of getting Himself some converts.

Sorry, conversation really doesn't register too well for me when people just use standard Christian phraseology without a bit of explaining as to what (for instance) being a "faithful servant" means in the context of the post.

Think of the phraseology as in the faithful servant of what we are to be continuing in as a servant of Christ, which is being a witness and helping others until the day He returns.
This thread is moving so fast I'm having a hard time keeping up with all the post in the last couple of hours.

 

[gr8grace3]

uhm, there is no evidence that your man said that. I went to the catholics for what he did teach. he had an entire bible commentary and most of its gone. no links there to what he said. im not buying it that he said that.

http://prophecy.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/rapture-proofs.html
Ephraem the Syrian (AD 306-373) clearly taught that believers will be Raptured to Heaven before the Tribulation. He was from Nisibis on the eastern edge of the Roman Empire (about 100 miles NW of Nineveh). Ephraem was a well-known and prolific Syrian writer and witness to early Christianity.

Following is part of Ephraem's sermon called, "On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World." It is said to be among the most interesting of apocalyptic texts from the early Middle Ages. The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. The translation from Latin (there are 4 known manuscripts) of the sermon includes the following segment:

"For all the saints and Elect of God are
gathered, prior to the Tribulation that
is to come, and are taken to the Lord
lest they see the confusion that is to
overwhelm the world because of our
sins." (English translation of the Latin
text [Christiania, 1890, pp. 208-20]
provided by Cameron Rhoades, Latin
instructor at Tyndale Theological
Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX.)

In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about A.D. 370, he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah. (The Book of the Cave of Treasures, p. 235) This dispensational teaching also supports the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

 

[for_his_glory]

Did you actually read Post #225? The Greek has "The Tribulation, The Great One" (thlipsis megale). Had the KJV translators done a strict literal translation, you would be reading exactly that. Quibbling over "The" does not alter the fact that this is an entirely unique and unimaginably terrible period in human history. Hence "The Great Tribulation". No one has seen anything like it since creation.

The Jerusalem Bible in Matthew 24:21 calls it great distress just as the KJV calls it great tribulation. Just because someone stuck a "The" in front of it does not change the original wording. I will stick to what these two Bibles call it.

 

[jasonc]

again that source, go elsewhere. that is akin to telling me to believe what the jw say about the the trinity. the books isn't written by him per the rcc.

so one of us must be wrong.

and well I guess im right he didn't write that.


http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bct/bct00.htm
this man claims he did but the rcc says nothing. odd that would be the case.


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/St._Ephraem

I will go again.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05498a.htm
and nothing. so I don't know what to make of that. if he did write that and why doesn't the rcc recognize that? they have Justin martyr and his diatribes and he goes into the end times with trypho and also states the early chialism. so either that man above isn't really the Ephraim or im wrong. idk.
they also no complete work survives and also have links for that for sources or references. therefore because its not mentioned here twice as its repeating the same thing as the other site, I refuse to buy that he said it. the birth and death is the same, the idea that he is Syrian per that page you said and the usage of the other books but I cant buy it. surely the rcc would. im thinking he made that one up. cant say for sure and confirm.therefore I wont buy that. im being that picky for a reason. if he is a catholic I should be able to see it with them and go to them for it.

just to make my case.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0128.htm

I have used them for martyr before and he mentions a few things that have made me think about what was in the bible. another topic.

 

[reba]

That's preterism.

Persecution of the Church is preterism?

We have pretersim sub forum so it that is your topic please take it there...