Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory,

Can you show us where, between Rev 4 and Rev 22, the Church is being taken out of this world? That really is the key issue.

The terms "the Church" or "church" or "churches" will not be found after Rev 3:22, and when Christ mentions "churches" once again in Rev 22:16, it is for a summation of all that is in this book of prophecy as was to be presented to the then existing churches: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches" (see Rev 1:11).

The reason the Church or churches have no place in Revelation after chapter 3 is because the Church is already in Heaven. Those are the saints which then return with Christ in Rev 19:14 as "armies" after they become "the wife of the Lamb" (Rev 19:7-9).

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelations starts with the angel showing John things that must come to pass. Shortly is just a time reference that has no length in actual timing. The angel proceeds to give warning and instruction to the seven churches that represent the seven spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2, which are wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, power and might that by these spirits they, as well as all of us, will be prepared to understand and withstand by faith what has to come hereafter. Revelation is given in three parts: The things which thou hast seen, 1:1-20, the things which are, 2:1-3:22; and the things which shall be hereafter, 4:1-22:21. I have shown where the Church is still here up until around Chapter 14 right before the vial judgments begin. Revelation is all prophecy given in the shadow of the OT revealed by the Holy Spirit in the NT of all things which must come to be before that great and terrible day of the Lord that only God knows when that will be.

 

[reba]

The Jerusalem Bible in Matthew 24:21 calls it great distress just as the KJV calls it great tribulation. Just because someone stuck a "The" in front of it does not change the original wording. I will stick to what these two Bibles call it.

but it does.change it...

Example... We are having a party..
We are having the party.
Then folks will even claim a literal understanding of scripture and say it says the great tribulation... when it does not ... and they will tell us the antichrist will do this and that and that is not scriptural... There is no mention of antichrist in The Revelation...

 

[jasonc]

but it does.change it...

Example... We are having a party..
We are having the party.
Then folks will even claim a literal understanding of scripture and say it says the great tribulation... when it does not ... and they will tell us the antichrist will do this and that and that is not scriptural... There is no mention of antichrist in The Revelation...

don't ruin the party. uncle cy wont be happy.

 

[reba]

Some time when ya have the time try a word search of a couple phrases...


Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

"shortly" and "at hand'

 

[Malachi]

http://prophecy.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/rapture-proofs.html
Ephraem the Syrian (AD 306-373) clearly taught that believers will be Raptured to Heaven before the Tribulation.

He was not the only early Christian writer to believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture. Irenaeus (2nd century) said this: in Against Heresies 5.29,
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2)

Next Cyprian (3rd century)
In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:
“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

So the doctrine of a pre-tribulation Rapture was the Apostolic teaching, which faded away after Augustine come on the scene, and the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches became dominant, and later influenced the Reformers regarding eschatology. It was certainly revived in the 19th century when Christians began to search the Scriptures instead of relying on theologians.

 

[jasonc]

Some time when ya have the time try a word search of a couple phrases...


Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

"shortly" and "at hand'

cough it means gods time of short and at hand which well a long time and so be patient.

 

[jasonc]

He was not the only early Christian writer to believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture. Irenaeus (2nd century) said this: in Against Heresies 5.29,
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2)

Next Cyprian (3rd century)
In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:
“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

So the doctrine of a pre-tribulation Rapture was the Apostolic teaching, which faded away after Augustine come on the scene, and the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches became dominant, and later influenced the Reformers regarding eschatology. It was certainly revived in the 19th century when Christians began to search the Scriptures instead of relying on theologians.

then why do we have a theological seminary teach that when its that obvious?

lets take this literally, either a star is falling star or a comet. some here say that its literal star. meet the real alpha centauri a binary star system. which is a two star system that both stars are destroying each other. so it can be that the sun would destroy that or be destroyed and the entire solar system with it. a comet? one comet or a big one will wipe out life as we know it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Seriously. In one church I attended, what "being faithful" constituted was showing up at the building each time the doors were unlocked.

We call them SMO's...........Sunday morning only as that's probably the only time they open a Bible even if they bring one with them.

 

[Malachi]

Some time when ya have the time try a word search of a couple phrases... "shortly" and "at hand'

These two phrases should be connected to Rev 1:19 and the phrase "the things which are", which would cover the messages to the seven churches (chapter 3) and the visions seen by John in chapters 4 and 5. From chapter 6 we have "the things which shall be hereafter" in visions.

Also the apostles expected the imminent return of Christ in their lifetimes and the restoration of the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6) shortly thereafter. The Lord did not reveal to them that it could be more than 2,000 years before that would happen. For God that is merely "two days" (2 Pet 3:8) -- a very short period in eternity.

 

[jasonc]

no exactly, he mentions no saints saved.

church removed then at the same judgement under that deception by the ac and the length of the tribulation isn't given, just stated.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103529.htm

 

[for_his_glory]

This is way before The great teacher Scofield. (August 19, 1843 – July 24, 1921)

Ephraem, the Syrian (306-373 AD)http://www.according2prophecy.org/ancient.html

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

So you are saying you believe in what one man teaches instead of getting into the word for yourself allowing the Holy Spirit confirm his teachings? Pretrib theory is only about 185 years old when it first was taught. Seems to me Gods word was from the beginning of time. Think I will stick with what God has already said.

These pre-trib theories started in the 1800’s and continued with Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland who first taught the pretrib view in 1830. Her theory was handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something.

 

[jasonc]

reba was referring to this not that.

edited to also include this also fits. I know here well enough that she would agree that if shortly is shortly only in some places it cant be shortly then in this context or soon or coming and now is.

for the kingdom of god is at hand. for the time is coming and now is that the dead shall pass unto life.. that is referring to the belief in jesus and the regeneration.

 

[jasonc]

I also have one problem if the saints in the trib simply can read the word and see what they are in how then will not this not be violated as well a mass evac of people we know will not be unnoticed.

no man knoweth the hour, well now those guys do know. they have a countdown of seven years to the exact second!

 

[for_his_glory]

According to Scripture, here's what happens the day Jesus returns WITH His saints (Rev 19):
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

What we see here is a "skyward descent" not a "skyward exodus". So the question for the naysayers is "How and when did those saints clothed in "linen, white and clean" get into Heaven, so that they could accompany Christ to earth at His Second Coming"?

The first battle of the end of days starts in Revelation chapter 20 and will be that of Satan’s control of Jerusalem through Papal Rome taking captive those that are of God and forcing them to bow down to their thoughts of an imaginative worship to their pagan gods and rituals and those that are in Christ will be forced to denounce Christ and if they refuse then they will die a martyrs death. This is the mark of the beast with Papal Rome being the beast and the mark of the beast is the actions of their hands and the thoughts of their minds. God sends an angel to bind up Satan and throw him into the Abyss right after Papal Rome’s abomination of desolation in Jerusalem so he can no longer deceive the nations. Remember that 1000 years is as a day with the Lord in his timing.
(Rev 13:11-18)

The second and last battle of the end of days will be the gathering of the bride of Christ (those who are Spiritually born again) as she has made herself ready as she endured until the end of days, both dead and alive and will be taken in the air to meet Jesus while the angel chains Satan and throws him into the Abyss for a time. Jesus then comes down to earth to stand on the Mt. Of Olives with his army (we the saints) to fight the final battle as he cast the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire and makes an end to the abominations of Papal Rome. Jesus will then let Satan loose from the Abyss and with Satan’s army will rage war on all the nations but will be consumed by the fire of heaven and will be cast into the lake of fire and sulphur with his army for eternity. After this God will bring everyone into his throne of judgment and those not found in the Lambs book of Life will be cast also into the lake of fire and sulphur with the beast, false prophet, Satan and all his army thus ushering in the new heaven and the new Jerusalem that we will be with the Lord forever.
(Rev 20:5,6; 9:20,21;20:15)

 

[reba]

Am i going to have to dust off the ol disagree but keep it friendly thanks staff

 

[turnorburn]

What does you bible say in the book of Mark 16: verses 9-20?

tob

 

[gr8grace3]

So you are saying you believe in what one man teaches instead of getting into the word for yourself allowing the Holy Spirit confirm his teachings? Pretrib theory is only about 185 years old when it first was taught. Seems to me Gods word was from the beginning of time. Think I will stick with what God has already said.

These pre-trib theories started in the 1800’s and continued with Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland who first taught the pretrib view in 1830. Her theory was handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something.

Sorry. We have writings and teachings that teach Pre trib wayyyyyyy before the 1800's. right or wrong you cannot stand by that the "teaching came about in the 1800's."

Ephraem, the Syrian (306-373 AD)http://www.according2prophecy.org/ancient.html

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

 

[jasonc]

Sorry. We have writings and teachings that teach Pre trib wayyyyyyy before the 1800's. right or wrong you cannot stand by that the "teaching came about in the 1800's."

not as taught today. I posted a link to what he said, a removal of the church prior to judgement. nothing there about the length of the trib.

 

[gr8grace3]

not as taught today. I posted a link to what he said, a removal of the church prior to judgement. nothing there about the length of the trib.

I don't care what you think about the length of the trib. the Guy might of been a complete freak!

WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY before the 1800's someone had the idea of a rapture before the trib. I DO NOT care if he was right or wrong, the Idea was proposed way before Darby or the 1800's.

 

[for_his_glory]

but it does.change it...

Example... We are having a party..
We are having the party.
Then folks will even claim a literal understanding of scripture and say it says the great tribulation... when it does not ... and they will tell us the antichrist will do this and that and that is not scriptural... There is no mention of antichrist in The Revelation...

Yes, you are right. It does change the whole meaning when you add words to something that has already been written.

The antichrist in Revelations is that of Satan that gives power to the beast (son of perdition 2Thess chapter 2) as Satan is the one who opposes everything of God and Jesus. Who is antichrist, those that deny God and Jesus as the Christ. Just as God uses us for His glory Satan uses his own for his glory.

1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.