Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[ezrider]

I have never really believed in the rapture theory, at least not as the church teaches it. I can find no substantial lesson within the scriptures of a time when the Lord simply took them out of the way. It is impossible for me to accept otherwise when the examples we have to guide our spiritual lives show us that the children of Israel remained in the land of Egypt and experienced the same plagues as did the Egyptians. Yet the Lord was a hedge about them and protected them from the tribulations. And by obedience through Faith, they painted their door posts with the blood of the passover lamb, so that the angel of death would pass them by. The children of God did not escape the tribulations and the plagues, they were delivered through them that the Lord might be Glorified. The examples we have through the witness of the scripture is just to powerful for me to imagine in any way of escaping the tribulations. The Lord will be Glorified.

If I were forced to take a position, I would have had to say it would be post-trib; but now I am not completely sold on this idea any longer. I have realized that when I am thinking about the idea of a rapture, I am doing so relative to my perceptions of the flesh, as when we shall put off this earthly tabernacle. But I am finding the idea of a pre-trib rapture does have merit, and the very same stories that witness to me that shall we shall not escape from the tribulations, they also testify that the Lord was with them to instruct them prior to His judgements, and He was their hedge to deliver them and protect them through the plagues and judgements.

In this respect, I would have to say there truly is a pre-trib rapture, just not in the way most expect it to come. The rapture is not about flying away or escaping from any tribulation. The rapture is your spiritual awakening. The moment you are truly “born again,” alive in the resurrection of Christ, led and instructed by the Spirit of God. When faith becomes more than the tenants of ones own beliefs, but the acceptance and trust in the Lord’s personal guidance in your spiritual walk. When we give way to our own understanding to wait upon the Lord’s. The idea that we shall be caught up to meet them in the air I think is better understood in the light of being caught up in the Spirit, like as unto the day of Pentecost, for in the Lord, we are to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh. And while flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God, those who walk after the Spirit have already entered therein by Faith.

While I have no hopes or expectations of bypassing any future tribulation that may befall us in the flesh, I can rest assured in Faith knowing that the Spirit of the Lord is with me.

 

[John S]

.


Elisha and Elijah weren't spared from suffering. They may or may not have been spared from 'death', whatever Yhwh did with them, Yhwh did.

But where did you get the idea that more than 8 as in Noah's time, or 3 as in sodom and gomorrah, would even have a chance of 'vanishing' let alone "millions" ?

NO ONE is escaping.

 

[JLB]

Understood. I need your thoughts on something however. I find it interesting that when the Bible says, "Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."...also has similar events happening around the sixth seal in Rev 6:12-13. Raise your heads means rapture time, and keep in mind that Luke 21:25-28 is speaking of the great tribulation (people fainting with fear and distress of nations). Take a look at the similarity here..

Rev 6:12-13 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)

Luke 21:25-28. 25 "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Yes I agree. Christians will be alive on earth to witness the signs and events of the tribulation period, just before Jesus returns.

The sun, moon and stars sign will be an unmistakable one that everyone will see, and as you said, men's hearts will fail them for fear of what is Coming...

Jesus said -

32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! Matthew 24:32


I will caution you that there are those who would teach that everything has happened already, and these things are all in the past, even saying the resurrection is past.

That Jesus came in 70 AD.

That Jesus was teaching about the destruction of the Temple, and that was the great Tribulation.

This doctrine is called Preterism.

They teach that all prophecy came to fulfillment in 70 AD.

Here is what Paul said about those who teach this -

17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:17-18

There is a section on this forum dedicated to the discussion of Preterism.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Resurrection of the dead will take place in this age on the last Day for all at the same time, at His Coming.

The has only been One who has been Resurrected from the dead, Jesus.

The have been none who have been Raptured.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

All those who are Christ's will be resurrected when He comes.

The rapture happens after the resurrection.

The end is not 7 years before the end, the end is the end when all evil, wicked rule and authority will cease and be cast into hell.

Then the Kingdom of God will have completely subdued the earth.

Then the Kingdoms of this world will have become the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ.

Then the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will cover this earth as the waters cover the sea.

Then the stone that was cut out without hands will strike the ten toes [ten kings].

Then the stone that was cut out without hands will become a great mountain and fill the earth.

You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:34-35


... so that no trace of them was found.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

 

[John S]

"The resurrection of the dead will take place in this age on the last day for all at the same time at His coming"

You probably don't even realize how right you are.
The return of Jesus Christ ends the 6th Day of Creation and the FIRST Biblical prophecy, Genesis 2:2, will have FINALLY been completed -
The arrival of the 7th Day of Creation. It will be the first time that God will be able to rest. Satan will have been banished and bound. Mankind will live just like God has always wanted us to live - in complete peace and harmony.

 

[JLB]

"The resurrection of the dead will take place in this age on the last day for all at the same time at His coming"

You probably don't even realize how right you are.
The return of Jesus Christ ends the 6th Day of Creation and the FIRST Biblical prophecy, Genesis 2:2, will have FINALLY been completed -
The arrival of the 7th Day of Creation. It will be the first time that God will be able to rest. Satan will have been banished and bound. Mankind will live just like God has always wanted us to live - in complete peace and harmony.

Thanks.

I try to carefully word my post's to covey a multifaceted expression of truth.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

The Resurrection of the dead will take place in this age on the last Day for all at the same time, at His Coming.

The has only been One who has been Resurrected from the dead, Jesus.

The have been none who have been Raptured.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

All those who are Christ's will be resurrected when He comes.

The rapture happens after the resurrection.

The end is not 7 years before the end, the end is the end when all evil, wicked rule and authority will cease and be cast into hell.

Then the Kingdom of God will have completely subdued the earth.

Then the Kingdoms of this world will have become the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ.

Then the knowledge of the glory of the Lord will cover this earth as the waters cover the sea.

Then the stone that was cut out without hands will strike the ten toes [ten kings].

Then the stone that was cut out without hands will become a great mountain and fill the earth.

You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:34-35


... so that no trace of them was found.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

Are you claiming Dan 2:34-35 is about the rapture? Equating those who are raptured to chaff?

 

[Edward]

JLB:..The has only been One who has been Resurrected from the dead, Jesus..

There were several in the bible. What about Lazarus?

 

[JLB]

Are you claiming Dan 2:34-35 is about the rapture? Equating those who are raptured to chaff?

Daniel 2 defines what the "end" will look like for the wicked political infrastructure that now governs planet earth.

No trace of them shall be found.


23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 1 Corinthians 15:23-25


This event takes place when Jesus returns to gather His people at the resurrection and then Rapture.


JLB

 

[JLB]

There were several in the bible. What about Lazarus?

Your are referring to raised from the dead.

Did Lazarus receive an immortal body that would never die and shines like the sun? No.

The resurrection happens on the last day.

Let's discuss the difference.



JLB

 

[JLB]

And the graves were opened ; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose ,And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Matthew 27:52-53 KJV

and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matthew 27:52-53 NKJV

This is the only use of this Greek word [resurrection] in the new testament.

Strong's Number: 1454 - Egersis

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36


41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:41-43


John says it this way -

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2


Example of shining forth as the sun -

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. Matthew 17:1-2


When the saints are Resurrected/Raptured at the end of this age this is what we shall be like.


JLB

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

well, that's what everyone thinks anyway. a lot of (most?) people are in for a shock.
something like Jesus said,
woe to you who are comfortable now, you have received your comfort....
some people (I don't know) think this may happen to the untied states >>>> (I see parallels anyway)

Amos 6 (The Message)
6 1-2 Woe to you who think you live on easy street in Zion,
who think Mount Samaria is the good life.
You assume you’re at the top of the heap,
voted the number-one best place to live.
Well, wake up and look around. Get off your pedestal.
Take a look at Calneh.
Go and visit Great Hamath.
Look in on Gath of the Philistines.
Doesn’t that take you off your high horse?
Compared to them, you’re not much, are you?


3-6 Woe to you who are rushing headlong to disaster!
Catastrophe is just around the corner!
Woe to those who live in luxury
and expect everyone else to serve them!
Woe to those who live only for today,
indifferent to the fate of others!
Woe to the playboys, the playgirls,
who think life is a party held just for them!
Woe to those addicted to feeling good—life without pain!
those obsessed with looking good—life without wrinkles!
They could not care less
about their country going to ruin.


7 But here’s what’s really coming:
a forced march into exile.
They’ll leave the country whining,
a rag-tag bunch of good-for-nothings.


You’ve Made a Shambles of Justice
8 God, the Master, has sworn, and solemnly stands by his Word.
The God-of-the-Angel-Armies speaks:


“I hate the arrogance of Jacob.
I have nothing but contempt for his forts.
I’m about to hand over the city
and everyone in it.”


9-10 Ten men are in a house, all dead. A relative comes and gets the bodies to prepare them for a decent burial. He discovers a survivor huddled in a closet and asks, “Are there any more?” The answer: “Not a soul. But hush! God must not be mentioned in this desecrated place.”


11 Note well: God issues the orders.
He’ll knock large houses to smithereens.
He’ll smash little houses to bits.


12-13 Do you hold a horse race in a field of rocks?
Do you plow the sea with oxen?
You’d cripple the horses
and drown the oxen.
And yet you’ve made a shambles of justice,
a bloated corpse of righteousness,
Bragging of your trivial pursuits,
beating up on the weak and crowing, “Look what I’ve done!”


14 “Enjoy it while you can, you Israelites.
I’ve got a pagan army on the move against you”
—this is your God speaking, God-of-the-Angel-Armies—
“And they’ll make hash of you,
from one end of the country to the other.”

 

[n2thelight]

On the day of Pentecost it became imminent.

So He could have returned in their(Apostles)lifetime,and before they finished spreading the gospel?

 

[JLB]

So He could have returned in their(Apostles)lifetime,and before they finished spreading the gospel?

We know from the scriptures that when He Comes, He will personally destroy the lawless one, which some refer to as antichrist or man of sin, or son of perdition.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

So we know from this scripture that there will certainly have to be an antichrist alive on earth, for Jesus to destroy him by the brightness of His coming.

The doctrine of imminency is not supported in the scriptures.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

We know from the scriptures that when He Comes, He will personally destroy the lawless one, which some refer to as antichrist or man of sin, or son of perdition.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

So we know from this scripture that there will certainly have to be an antichrist alive on earth, for Jesus to destroy him by the brightness of His coming.

The doctrine of imminency is not supported in the scriptures.


JLB

JLB comin thru with the scriptures again. Good work!

I'm keepin' notes.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

So He could have returned in their(Apostles)lifetime,and before they finished spreading the gospel?

I think within the limits of human , especially mankind's, understanding,
yes.
others have published accounts of how it could be, not that it had to be, but the Apostles and disciples expected the end soon. so may we.

 

[n2thelight]

We know from the scriptures that when He Comes, He will personally destroy the lawless one, which some refer to as antichrist or man of sin, or son of perdition.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

So we know from this scripture that there will certainly have to be an antichrist alive on earth, for Jesus to destroy him by the brightness of His coming.

The doctrine of imminency is not supported in the scriptures.


JLB

I know that,you know that,more importantly,scriptures says that,yet we have Christians saying the Church will be gone during that time...That's what I can't understand.........

 

[JLB]

I know that,you know that,more importantly,scriptures says that,yet we have Christians saying the Church will be gone during that time...That's what I can't understand.........

I can't understand it either.

I struggled with this doctrine when I was first saved, and kept crying out to God and studying.

What troubled me so much was that all the big name preachers and teachers were teaching this doctrine, so how could it be false?

There is not one verse or shadow and type in the scriptures that teach nor point to a pre-trib Rapture.

This doctrine prepares the saints to receive the antichrist as the Messiah.

Here is the safe guard to keep the saints from being deceived -

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:23-27


The Return of Jesus Christ will not be secret of invisible.

EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM!

As lightning flashes in one place and is seen in another.

No one will have to tell you that Jesus has returned, for every eye will see Him.

 

[Eugene]

I can't understand it either.

I struggled with this doctrine when I was first saved, and kept crying out to God and studying.

What troubled me so much was that all the big name preachers and teachers were teaching this doctrine, so how could it be false?

There is not one verse or shadow and type in the scriptures that teach nor point to a pre-trib Rapture.

This doctrine prepares the saints to receive the antichrist as the Messiah.

Here is the safe guard to keep the saints from being deceived -

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:23-27

The Return of Jesus Christ will not be secret of invisible.

EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM!

As lightning flashes in one place and is seen in another.

No one will have to tell you that Jesus has returned, for every eye will see Him. There is not one verse or shadow and type in the scriptures that teach nor point to a pre-trib Rapture.

This doctrine prepares the saints to receive the antichrist as the Messiah.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Are all the elect the Church? Please show me scripture in Revelation Chapters Two and Three.

I have continued to see references to the last day; what last day? How long is the day, and when does it begin? Is that the scripture of Rev 4:1 where we read “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” Where is hither, and what are the things?

 

[DRS81]

There is not one verse or shadow and type in the scriptures that teach nor point to a pre-trib Rapture.

This doctrine prepares the saints to receive the antichrist as the Messiah.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Are all the elect the Church? Please show me scripture in Revelation Chapters Two and Three.

I have continued to see references to the last day; what last day? How long is the day, and when does it begin? Is that the scripture of Rev 4:1 where we read “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” Where is hither, and what are the things?

Rev 4:1-2 isn't rapture scripture. It's a vision given to John about the great tribulation. Rev 4:1-2 mentions only (one guy) going up (in the spirit). However, rapture will be (all born again christians) going up (physically in the body). When the Bible mentions the elect they are referring to the church/born again christians. The last day is the day of the Lord/rapture. After rapture comes the wrath of God/trumpets and bowls. The rapture and God's wrath happen on the same day. There will be silence in heaven for a half our before God's wrath is poured out. Rev 8:1.