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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Question for those who believe in "speaking in tongues"...
- Thread starter Orion
- Start date
Thanks for sharing shadshad said:Cornelius said:So you are being a good witness, by telling people that God's gift of tongues are evil ?
Am I missing something here ?
You claim that if we dont speak in tongue, the Holy Spirit does not dwell in us. That is lie and evil.
.
I
Imagican
Guest
Cornelius,
Did I spell something wrong?
I am not familiar with the American Standard. But I can offer that the reason that I am a firm believer in reading ONE particular Bible is that once bunches of people with DIFFERENT beliefs come along and write DIFFERENT interpretations of The Bible, it is INEVITABLE that there be confusion. And I have noticed that different denominations have a tendencey to favor DIFFERENT versions for the SAKE of the differences.
I cannot SAY that ANY version is WRONG. But I can say that there are many that deviate from the OLE STAND BY; King James Version. Is IT perfect? I kind of doubt it. But it's probably about as close as it gets to accurately translated.
Not attacking you personally Cornelius. You are probably doing nothing other than defending what you have been taught.
If you would like to simply start with my FIRST error and work our way through it I will gladly offer explanation, scripture, or whatever you think i need to PROVE whatever I have written.
As I have stated previous on this and other threads concerning this issue. I have done EXTENSIVE study on the subject. Starting from the first page of the NT until the last. Studying EACH instance that the word TONGUE was used. And I have found NO instance where there were 'tongues' spoken that NO ONE understood. NOT ONE. If you are aware of any, even in the version that you read, please offer this to us.
As far as the epistle to the Corinthians BEING a 'letter of REBUKE', ALL it takes to KNOW this is to READ IT. From the beginning until the last chapter, Paul is SCOLDING the Corinthians to the best of his ability. Paul was FORCED by the nature of his UNDERSTANDING to BE humble. But if you read you will find that from the beginning he asks the Corinthians if upon his return he should return WITH A ROD. Now, I THINK you and everyone else KNOWS what a 'rod' is used for.
1 Corinthians 4:
18Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
19But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
20For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
21What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?
We also have the words of Paul that the 'church at Corinth' was allowing sinners among their congregation that he had taught them MUST NOT TAKE PLACE. For The Spirit will NOT dwell among a band of demons.
Blessings,
MEC
Did I spell something wrong?
I am not familiar with the American Standard. But I can offer that the reason that I am a firm believer in reading ONE particular Bible is that once bunches of people with DIFFERENT beliefs come along and write DIFFERENT interpretations of The Bible, it is INEVITABLE that there be confusion. And I have noticed that different denominations have a tendencey to favor DIFFERENT versions for the SAKE of the differences.
I cannot SAY that ANY version is WRONG. But I can say that there are many that deviate from the OLE STAND BY; King James Version. Is IT perfect? I kind of doubt it. But it's probably about as close as it gets to accurately translated.
Not attacking you personally Cornelius. You are probably doing nothing other than defending what you have been taught.
If you would like to simply start with my FIRST error and work our way through it I will gladly offer explanation, scripture, or whatever you think i need to PROVE whatever I have written.
As I have stated previous on this and other threads concerning this issue. I have done EXTENSIVE study on the subject. Starting from the first page of the NT until the last. Studying EACH instance that the word TONGUE was used. And I have found NO instance where there were 'tongues' spoken that NO ONE understood. NOT ONE. If you are aware of any, even in the version that you read, please offer this to us.
As far as the epistle to the Corinthians BEING a 'letter of REBUKE', ALL it takes to KNOW this is to READ IT. From the beginning until the last chapter, Paul is SCOLDING the Corinthians to the best of his ability. Paul was FORCED by the nature of his UNDERSTANDING to BE humble. But if you read you will find that from the beginning he asks the Corinthians if upon his return he should return WITH A ROD. Now, I THINK you and everyone else KNOWS what a 'rod' is used for.
1 Corinthians 4:
18Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
19But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
20For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
21What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?
We also have the words of Paul that the 'church at Corinth' was allowing sinners among their congregation that he had taught them MUST NOT TAKE PLACE. For The Spirit will NOT dwell among a band of demons.
Blessings,
MEC
No you have not spelled anything wrong, but you speak of "voices of angels" (something that I never mentioned) and of Bible translations, and woman who are not allowed to speak in tongues. All of which will take many post each and today I really do not have the energy to do it. LOL So forgive me, its nothing personal,
C
C
You know brother is also too late. I have been speaking in tongues for 30 years now and I know it so well. I have felt what it does to my spirit.
God used is once to save a friend of mine's life too. He was drowning in a river and God spoke to me at that moment in my bathroom. He told me to pray for Peter. I did not know what to pray, so I prayed in tongues for him. Later I found out that he was diving for diamonds and the current sucked him in under a rock. He knew he was going to die, because he could not get out . Then he felt himself being grabbed by something and he was pulled out from under the rock. It was God , using my prayer, to save Peter.
So you see, its too late, I already know the power. I cannot be without tongues anymore . No matter what people say, I have walked the road with the Lord. Nobody prayed for me, or taught me "how" or forced me. I was just a young man who believed God when He said He will baptize me with His Spirit and I will speak in tongues.
I prayed, I believed, I spoke.
Simple faith
C
God used is once to save a friend of mine's life too. He was drowning in a river and God spoke to me at that moment in my bathroom. He told me to pray for Peter. I did not know what to pray, so I prayed in tongues for him. Later I found out that he was diving for diamonds and the current sucked him in under a rock. He knew he was going to die, because he could not get out . Then he felt himself being grabbed by something and he was pulled out from under the rock. It was God , using my prayer, to save Peter.
So you see, its too late, I already know the power. I cannot be without tongues anymore . No matter what people say, I have walked the road with the Lord. Nobody prayed for me, or taught me "how" or forced me. I was just a young man who believed God when He said He will baptize me with His Spirit and I will speak in tongues.
I prayed, I believed, I spoke.
Simple faith
C
Cornelius said:
It is never too late to do the right thing. You may be practicing the power from devil. Watch out C. You are following what makes you feel good.
BTW, I am a simple Christian and have simple faith too. You are following doctrine of man. dont forget overall context. You seem to be obsessed with your tongue speaking.
.
Vic C.
Member
- Mar 16, 2003
- 18,230
- 4
Please forgive me for my disbelief, but do you really think He needed you to pray in some "unknown" language to save a life? We're laking about the Almighty, who "spoke" creation into existence. He doesn't need our help in or with anything! It is we who need His help, desperately.
Did Jesus ask anyone to pray (in a completely unknown language) for the Centurion's servant before He healed him? Jesus gave the power of performing miracles to His Apostles but no mention of asking anyone to pray in this tongue first. Matthew 13:15 makes no mention of praying in this tongue. Neither does Acts 28:27 Lazareth, was anyone asked to pray for him first? How about the crippled man in the bed that was simply told to Arise and take up thy couch...
Was anyone asked pray for the thief on the cross before he was saved?
This is all to confusing to a simple believer like myself. I struggle less with the triune God doctrine. Sorry, but I have to agree with MEC. the letters to the church in Corinth were full of rebuke. You must consider the history of the culture Paul was dealing with before you make an entire doctrine out of speaking in "tongues". Paul was convicting them of their actions. The believers in Corinth had a bad habit of incorporating the practices of the neighboring pagan communities.
The Mormons pray for the dead because they see it in 1 Cor. 15. Paul didn't give them the OK to do this just because those "other" people up the road were doing it. No, Paul was rebuking the practice. Hundreds upon hundreds of years, the concept of speaking in a unknown language wasn't even a normal practice in the ekklesia. Where is it that God says that all of a sudden, now, this practice is some sort of sign? Please don't tell me Acts 2 because I will insist Joel's prophecy was fulfilled in the first century.
This is what the tongue speaking crowd doesn't seem to get. They don't see the errors of the Latter Day Rain movement like I do. Man has no right to self fulfill prophecy, especially ones that have already come to pass.
That is my belief based on my understanding of the Bible.
Did Jesus ask anyone to pray (in a completely unknown language) for the Centurion's servant before He healed him? Jesus gave the power of performing miracles to His Apostles but no mention of asking anyone to pray in this tongue first. Matthew 13:15 makes no mention of praying in this tongue. Neither does Acts 28:27 Lazareth, was anyone asked to pray for him first? How about the crippled man in the bed that was simply told to Arise and take up thy couch...
Was anyone asked pray for the thief on the cross before he was saved?
This is all to confusing to a simple believer like myself. I struggle less with the triune God doctrine. Sorry, but I have to agree with MEC. the letters to the church in Corinth were full of rebuke. You must consider the history of the culture Paul was dealing with before you make an entire doctrine out of speaking in "tongues". Paul was convicting them of their actions. The believers in Corinth had a bad habit of incorporating the practices of the neighboring pagan communities.
The Mormons pray for the dead because they see it in 1 Cor. 15. Paul didn't give them the OK to do this just because those "other" people up the road were doing it. No, Paul was rebuking the practice. Hundreds upon hundreds of years, the concept of speaking in a unknown language wasn't even a normal practice in the ekklesia. Where is it that God says that all of a sudden, now, this practice is some sort of sign? Please don't tell me Acts 2 because I will insist Joel's prophecy was fulfilled in the first century.
This is what the tongue speaking crowd doesn't seem to get. They don't see the errors of the Latter Day Rain movement like I do. Man has no right to self fulfill prophecy, especially ones that have already come to pass.
That is my belief based on my understanding of the Bible.
Vic C.
Member
- Mar 16, 2003
- 18,230
- 4
I am truly sorry if any of this has become a stumbling block for you. We should strive to not become or be the cause of another person's stumbling. Paul makes this very clear to us. I can't help but think how easy it is for a person who is struggling in their faith to become dismayed by the practice of speaking in tongues.Orion said:
Sorry brother.
I
Imagican
Guest
Let me add this too:
The Romans picked up on and practiced just about EVERYTHING written in The Word. Even things that were SUBTLY even MENTIONED. It would seem a 'given' that IF there were 'tongues' being used that THEY of ALL people, would have picked it up and RUN with it. This would have inevitably lead to it being a 'part of the Catholic Church', (I am NOT discussing Catholic issues, just trying to make a point). Yet we see NO such tongues existing from the time of the apostles until about a HUNDRED years ago. Suspicious indeed.
I once read an article written by a pastor concerning his first assignment. he was sent to a dinky church up in the mountains of NC where there was a DYING congregation of about twenty people. He DEVOTED himself to the service of the people and after about two years the congregation had quadrupled. His members were spreading the word about the job that he was doing and the HARD word was beginning to gain results.
Then one day, a couple of NEW guys asked to have a meeting with this pastor. They met in a park and the two new members quickly go to the point: You NEED to start teachin' tongues' was the message that was offered. The pastor asked what they meant and they quickly offered an example. The pastor, in utter amazement, picked up his Bible and started to show the two gentlemen the error of their ways. Their response was to offer: ''We didn't come here to argue over what's in the Bible'', and the two of them proceeded to 'stomp off' and he never saw them again.
I know, useless information RIGHT? i don't THINK so. I believe that this is a pretty GOOD example of our 'modern tongue movement'. It really doesn't MATTER what's in The Word, some DESIRE this effect, (the emotional roller coaster involved), and NOTHING that anyone else can offer will CHANGE IT.
But I can attest to NUMEROUS people telling me that they once followed such practices but have since been led, (By God), away from such. And EVERY one of these people did NOT only follow this 'tongues' thing, the churches that they attended ALL practiced a BUNCH of 'things' that they later realized were NOT Biblical.
Now, the point that I HOPE I am making in offerings such as these: Don't simply FOLLOW. If you have ANY questions about what you practice, TAKE IT TO GOD. We have been PROMISED that He will NOT leave us 'on our own' so far as discernment is concerned. He LOVES us and WANTS us to KNOW the truth. So, before you simply follow and defend, PRAY. For it is NOT a 'love' of a 'gathering' that we are commanded to practice, it is the FOLLOWING of God and a love for HIM that matters MOST.
This by NO MEANS is an ABSOLUTE. For there ARE 'gods many' and one MUST be praying to the CORRECT God in order to be answered in truth. If you are following a 'church' instead of God, don't expect ANY answers other than what you CHOOSE to BELIEVE. For there will be those that CHOOSE to follow lies, and for these, God Himself will offer STRONG DELUSION so that they will believe those very lies. Why? To separate the wheat from the chaff of course. Don't 'take it from me', simply READ The Words.
Blessings,
MEC
The Romans picked up on and practiced just about EVERYTHING written in The Word. Even things that were SUBTLY even MENTIONED. It would seem a 'given' that IF there were 'tongues' being used that THEY of ALL people, would have picked it up and RUN with it. This would have inevitably lead to it being a 'part of the Catholic Church', (I am NOT discussing Catholic issues, just trying to make a point). Yet we see NO such tongues existing from the time of the apostles until about a HUNDRED years ago. Suspicious indeed.
I once read an article written by a pastor concerning his first assignment. he was sent to a dinky church up in the mountains of NC where there was a DYING congregation of about twenty people. He DEVOTED himself to the service of the people and after about two years the congregation had quadrupled. His members were spreading the word about the job that he was doing and the HARD word was beginning to gain results.
Then one day, a couple of NEW guys asked to have a meeting with this pastor. They met in a park and the two new members quickly go to the point: You NEED to start teachin' tongues' was the message that was offered. The pastor asked what they meant and they quickly offered an example. The pastor, in utter amazement, picked up his Bible and started to show the two gentlemen the error of their ways. Their response was to offer: ''We didn't come here to argue over what's in the Bible'', and the two of them proceeded to 'stomp off' and he never saw them again.
I know, useless information RIGHT? i don't THINK so. I believe that this is a pretty GOOD example of our 'modern tongue movement'. It really doesn't MATTER what's in The Word, some DESIRE this effect, (the emotional roller coaster involved), and NOTHING that anyone else can offer will CHANGE IT.
But I can attest to NUMEROUS people telling me that they once followed such practices but have since been led, (By God), away from such. And EVERY one of these people did NOT only follow this 'tongues' thing, the churches that they attended ALL practiced a BUNCH of 'things' that they later realized were NOT Biblical.
Now, the point that I HOPE I am making in offerings such as these: Don't simply FOLLOW. If you have ANY questions about what you practice, TAKE IT TO GOD. We have been PROMISED that He will NOT leave us 'on our own' so far as discernment is concerned. He LOVES us and WANTS us to KNOW the truth. So, before you simply follow and defend, PRAY. For it is NOT a 'love' of a 'gathering' that we are commanded to practice, it is the FOLLOWING of God and a love for HIM that matters MOST.
This by NO MEANS is an ABSOLUTE. For there ARE 'gods many' and one MUST be praying to the CORRECT God in order to be answered in truth. If you are following a 'church' instead of God, don't expect ANY answers other than what you CHOOSE to BELIEVE. For there will be those that CHOOSE to follow lies, and for these, God Himself will offer STRONG DELUSION so that they will believe those very lies. Why? To separate the wheat from the chaff of course. Don't 'take it from me', simply READ The Words.
Blessings,
MEC
I
Imagican
Guest
Vic C. said:I am truly sorry if any of this has become a stumbling block for you. We should strive to not become or be the cause of another person's stumbling. Paul makes this very clear to us. I can't help but think how easy it is for a person who is struggling in their faith to become dismayed by the practice of speaking in tongues.Orion said:
Sorry brother.
Vic,
What you offer is TRUTH. We are NOT to BE stumbling blocks. But I question whether we are ABLE to cause someone following false beliefs TO stumble. Maybe under THOSE circumstances we should do EVERYTHING within our POWER to cause them to STUMBLE away from such in the HOPES that they will stumble in the RIGHT direction.
I know. ''Mike and his KNOW IT ALL'' attitude. I don't mean to sound this way but I can assure you that we've ALL witnessed teachers that we KNOW are teaching things that are UTTERLY false. What if we could have offered ANYTHING in order to OPEN the eyes of a member of Jim Jonses' church? That could have potentially been a life saved and a SOUL as well.
I am NOT comparing ANY church to that of Jim Jones. I am simply offering that sometimes we ARE able to SEE that the direction others are taking is COMPLETELY the oposite of the truth. Under such circumstances, so far as words are concerned, I don't know that the 'stumbling rule' would apply. WE are to BE examples ALWAYS, so I am NOT advocating simply walking up to someone and stating: ''YOU ARE FOLLOWING LIES''. The most EFFECTIVE way is to simply POINT OUT THE TRUTH and allow THEM to come to the conclusion on their OWN.
Blessings,
MEC
Vic C.
Member
- Mar 16, 2003
- 18,230
- 4
We've been trying to do that with you for years, to no avail.
Let it go MEC, this is a discussion on Tongues, not the nature of the Godhead. You anti-Trinitarians have had your fun many times over. Lets concentrate on the nature of tongues, which looks like something we two agree upon, heh? :amen
I
Imagican
Guest
Vic,
I can ASSURE you that NOTHING that I have offered in this thread has been offered with 'tinity' in mind. I know you think that that's ALL I have on my mind, but I DO have much to offer among other subjects as well, (he he he).
But we have to go back a couple of chapters. Follow me will you?
1 Corinthians 12:
(I know it SEEMS long but it's really NOT and there is MUCH to be learned here)
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
This is important. Note that it PLAINLY states that BEFORE they were IDOL worshipers LED to DO SO. The important part is that we KNOW that those to which Paul spoke were NEW Christians. Barely able to bear MILK, much LESS meat.
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
We need to STOP HERE. Note what Paul has offered HERE: ''divers kinds of tongues'' DIVERS KINDS. Specifically he is offering EXACTLY what was offered in ACTS. NOT 'unknown tongues', divers kinds; DIVERSE KINDS of tongues. Now, to all who are reading this: What ARE diverse kinds of TONGUES? The answer is SIMPLE: DIFFERENT LANGUAGES ARE DIVERSE KINDS OF TONGUES.
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Now we can SEE that the 'gifts' are NOT for PERSONAL EDIFICATION but for the BENEFIT OF THE BODY. NOTHING offered here has ANYTHING TO DO WITH that which is PERSONAL. Read it yourself.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many.
15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Now the GOOD part; The ORDER in IMPORTANCE of the GIFTS. And we KNOW that it is such because it SAYS; FIRST: Apostles........................
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Now, notice that the LAST gift is 'diversities of tongues', (I like this cause it clears up what I offered previous. It is NOT merely MY interpretation that divers means DIVERSE, for here is CLEARLY offered only a few sentences away.
The REASON for 'diversities of tongues BEING LAST? For MOST of those that would speak to another in that AREA, (Corinth), would be ABLE to UNDERSTAND each other WITHOUT the NEED for 'other languages. Therefore, it would BE the LEAST important GIFT. What is the SECOND MOST important GIFT after apostleship? PROPHETS. Hmmmmmm............What IS a prophet? A prophet is merely one that is ABLE to discern the Word or The information offered THROUGH The Spirit. That SIMPLE. And that is WHY it is the SECOND MOST important GIFT: the ability to KNOW the TRUTH and God's WILL.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Now, Cornilius, YOU answer these questions FOR Paul.
Now I will add that Paul is PLAINLY offering that ALL will NOT receive EACH gift or even ANY gift. The SPIRIT supplies the gifts as NEEDED for the EDIFICATION of the BODY. Not to PLEASE individuals, but to offer EDIFICATION to the ENTIRE BODY.
Now the ANSWER: NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!! And I would go so far as to offer that MOST receive NO such GIFTS. For the GIFTS are offered BY the Spririt AS NEEDED for the EDIFICATION OF THE BODY. Now, if the Body is NOT LACKING, then there would be NO NEED for the GIFTS.
this is WHY MANY argue against the teachings of those that would offer that 'tongues' are a sign of being born in Spirit. It is an indication that WITHOUT 'tongues' one has NOT been born again in Spirit. And this is SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
This is the NEATEST sentence int this whole chapter: YET I SHEW YOU A MORE EXELLENT WAY. Know what this means? UNTIL I SHOW YOU A BETTER WAY. And that HE DID. That's what makes it SO NEAT.
Let's couple this with what Paul offered concerning MILK. He has already told these people that it's TIME TO GROW UP. That their continued insistance on FEELING the first FEELINGS that they experienced upon FIRST coming to Christ is ONLY THE BEGINNING. A FIRST STEP if you will. But NOW, NOW that they have COME to Christ, it's TIME TO GROW UP and PUT AWAY THOSE CHILDISH THINGS. Now THAT Is the MEAT of what Paul is offering in this ENTIRE epistle. GROW UP.
The NEXT chapter IS the 'MORE EXELLENT WAY'. That's for another conversation though.
Cornilius, do you SEE that Paul specifically offers DIVERSITIES of tongues? And that the gibberish that is CALLED tongues in todays churches are NOT languages. They are merely incoherent babblings that are NOT understood by THE BODY. IF we are to exercise gifts FOR the Body, then the BODY MUST RECEIVE EDIFICATION from the GIFT. That is WHY later Paul offers that the 'tongues' that the Corinthians were using were ONLY benefiting the USER. And not even SPIRITUALLY but through their PERSONAL EMOTIONS.
Diversities of tongues are the myriad languages spoken at the time. And the GIFT of 'tongues' was the ability to speak one's OWN language but be UNDERSTOOD by those of OTHERS. That is WHY there MUST be an interpreter IN THE CHURCH IF tongues are spoken. There MUST be SOMEONE that UNDERSTANDS the language that is able to EDIFY the CHURCH through INTERPRETATION. Otherwise, it CANNOT be considered a GIFT OF THE SPIRIT.
Blessings,
MEC
I can ASSURE you that NOTHING that I have offered in this thread has been offered with 'tinity' in mind. I know you think that that's ALL I have on my mind, but I DO have much to offer among other subjects as well, (he he he).
But we have to go back a couple of chapters. Follow me will you?
1 Corinthians 12:
(I know it SEEMS long but it's really NOT and there is MUCH to be learned here)
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
This is important. Note that it PLAINLY states that BEFORE they were IDOL worshipers LED to DO SO. The important part is that we KNOW that those to which Paul spoke were NEW Christians. Barely able to bear MILK, much LESS meat.
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
We need to STOP HERE. Note what Paul has offered HERE: ''divers kinds of tongues'' DIVERS KINDS. Specifically he is offering EXACTLY what was offered in ACTS. NOT 'unknown tongues', divers kinds; DIVERSE KINDS of tongues. Now, to all who are reading this: What ARE diverse kinds of TONGUES? The answer is SIMPLE: DIFFERENT LANGUAGES ARE DIVERSE KINDS OF TONGUES.
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Now we can SEE that the 'gifts' are NOT for PERSONAL EDIFICATION but for the BENEFIT OF THE BODY. NOTHING offered here has ANYTHING TO DO WITH that which is PERSONAL. Read it yourself.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many.
15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Now the GOOD part; The ORDER in IMPORTANCE of the GIFTS. And we KNOW that it is such because it SAYS; FIRST: Apostles........................
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Now, notice that the LAST gift is 'diversities of tongues', (I like this cause it clears up what I offered previous. It is NOT merely MY interpretation that divers means DIVERSE, for here is CLEARLY offered only a few sentences away.
The REASON for 'diversities of tongues BEING LAST? For MOST of those that would speak to another in that AREA, (Corinth), would be ABLE to UNDERSTAND each other WITHOUT the NEED for 'other languages. Therefore, it would BE the LEAST important GIFT. What is the SECOND MOST important GIFT after apostleship? PROPHETS. Hmmmmmm............What IS a prophet? A prophet is merely one that is ABLE to discern the Word or The information offered THROUGH The Spirit. That SIMPLE. And that is WHY it is the SECOND MOST important GIFT: the ability to KNOW the TRUTH and God's WILL.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Now, Cornilius, YOU answer these questions FOR Paul.
Now I will add that Paul is PLAINLY offering that ALL will NOT receive EACH gift or even ANY gift. The SPIRIT supplies the gifts as NEEDED for the EDIFICATION of the BODY. Not to PLEASE individuals, but to offer EDIFICATION to the ENTIRE BODY.
Now the ANSWER: NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!! And I would go so far as to offer that MOST receive NO such GIFTS. For the GIFTS are offered BY the Spririt AS NEEDED for the EDIFICATION OF THE BODY. Now, if the Body is NOT LACKING, then there would be NO NEED for the GIFTS.
this is WHY MANY argue against the teachings of those that would offer that 'tongues' are a sign of being born in Spirit. It is an indication that WITHOUT 'tongues' one has NOT been born again in Spirit. And this is SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
This is the NEATEST sentence int this whole chapter: YET I SHEW YOU A MORE EXELLENT WAY. Know what this means? UNTIL I SHOW YOU A BETTER WAY. And that HE DID. That's what makes it SO NEAT.
Let's couple this with what Paul offered concerning MILK. He has already told these people that it's TIME TO GROW UP. That their continued insistance on FEELING the first FEELINGS that they experienced upon FIRST coming to Christ is ONLY THE BEGINNING. A FIRST STEP if you will. But NOW, NOW that they have COME to Christ, it's TIME TO GROW UP and PUT AWAY THOSE CHILDISH THINGS. Now THAT Is the MEAT of what Paul is offering in this ENTIRE epistle. GROW UP.
The NEXT chapter IS the 'MORE EXELLENT WAY'. That's for another conversation though.
Cornilius, do you SEE that Paul specifically offers DIVERSITIES of tongues? And that the gibberish that is CALLED tongues in todays churches are NOT languages. They are merely incoherent babblings that are NOT understood by THE BODY. IF we are to exercise gifts FOR the Body, then the BODY MUST RECEIVE EDIFICATION from the GIFT. That is WHY later Paul offers that the 'tongues' that the Corinthians were using were ONLY benefiting the USER. And not even SPIRITUALLY but through their PERSONAL EMOTIONS.
Diversities of tongues are the myriad languages spoken at the time. And the GIFT of 'tongues' was the ability to speak one's OWN language but be UNDERSTOOD by those of OTHERS. That is WHY there MUST be an interpreter IN THE CHURCH IF tongues are spoken. There MUST be SOMEONE that UNDERSTANDS the language that is able to EDIFY the CHURCH through INTERPRETATION. Otherwise, it CANNOT be considered a GIFT OF THE SPIRIT.
Blessings,
MEC
Vic C. said:
Vic, its a basic Christian fact that God made a choice to move through our prayers.His choice , not mine. So ask Him about it.
Eze 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should build up the wall, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found none. (PRAYER)
Eze 22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I brought upon their heads, saith the Lord Jehovah.
All I can tell you is that I heard the Lord speak to me about Peter and then Peter told me about the incident which happened at the same time. So I will leave you to decide if you believe it or not. I cannot make anybody believe it.
C
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Instead of a lot of cross posting, readers see my posts in these other tongues threads....
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38008
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37982
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38005
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38008
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37982
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38005