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Stove,

I don't know if I would call it 'building each other up, by tearing others down' so much as a refreshing feeling one gets when they are acknowledged by another.

Let's say you were in New York as a new comer and everyone you met were of some other religion or of no faith whatsoever. Then, one day you meet a fellow Christian, can you imagine the joy that you would feel? Often I feel the same way when I find someone that has the 'same' kind of understanding as I. There is an indication to me that this person must have experienced much of something similar to myself in order to obtain this understanding.

Stove, my understanding has not come easy. And it certainly didn't come from 'other men'. I have read and prayed and read and prayed and ....................................................................................................................

If all I had gained so far in my walk had come from churches, I would be still be stumbling miserably and practically void of any serious understanding, in my opinion. Unless one is able to 'live' at church, they receive but a very basic understanding, (watered down milk, say like skim or two percent), and this basic teaching guided in the direction chosen by it's leader, (NO, not Christ or God), a pastor, (if he's lucky), but the elders MOST of the time. And many of these are often Mason's or even persons with very little regard for the Church, but MUCH regard for 'their' church and the prestige that goes along with the 'title'.

I have NO problem with ANYONE attending churches. I guess if one chooses to be ignorant enough, it is easy to be blind to their workings and content. If one accepts before understanding, it would be easy to fall in line and follow such practices. I mean look around you. There are still Catholics out there that follow this denomination without being forced to. And you know what Stove, these would tell you the same as you offer only worse. That if you follow not their ways you are lost and unsaved. Their way is the 'only' way. I think you and I both know that this is simply NOT true. (you're not a Catholic I hope).

I would like to add that I mean NO disrespect to the individuals that choose to follow the Catholic Church. I fault no man for the place that they find themselves as far as 'religion' is concerned. Most have no time to begin to understand it so they do what is easiest and often first in their lives. I mean accept what they are first taught. But I can't help but fault is a church that teachings are contradictory to the Word.

And I know how difficult it might be to devote oneself to a 'way of life' and then see the freedom of others that find NO NEED for such devotion. I'm sure in your mind and heart you have been convinced by those that you follow that your way is the ONLY way. Fortunately for me the only conviction that I have received like that is from my God and His Son Jesus Christ. I am to follow ONLY them, through the Spirit and allow no man to alter or destroy the Word that I receive.

Question Stove, where does your understanding come from? Do you agree with the practices and teachings of your church 100 percent?
 
Stove,

I don't know if I would call it 'building each other up, by tearing others down' so much as a refreshing feeling one gets when they are acknowledged by another.

Ok, so then should we be bolstered and rally to receive a positive acknowledgment from our peers by negative statements toward our foes? Through my eyes and understanding, that looks like false humility wrapped in ignorance. Furthermore, aren’t we merely lifting each other up as opposed to being lifted up in Spirit (God)?

Let's say you were in New York as a new comer and everyone you met were of some other religion or of no faith whatsoever. Then, one day you meet a fellow Christian, can you imagine the joy that you would feel? Often I feel the same way when I find someone that has the 'same' kind of understanding as I. There is an indication to me that this person must have experienced much of something similar to myself in order to obtain this understanding.

When you speak of ‘some other religion’, can I safely assume you speak of atheist, Buddhist and the like? If we are speaking of these folks, then yes, I can and do imagine the joy when we meet another Brother or Sister in Christ. You see, I get excited when we, as Christians, believers and doers in our Savoir Jesus the Christ can come together and share our common faith which through Christ alone, builds us up. But concerning the sorrows and misery of this life, it is comforting when we can experience fellowship with another that has traveled a similar path. Knowing through experience is richer at times in meaning than just knowing.

Stove, my understanding has not come easy. And it certainly didn't come from 'other men'. I have read and prayed and read and prayed and ....................................................................................................................

Then we can relate, as we continue to seek for truth, no?

If all I had gained so far in my walk had come from churches, I would be still be stumbling miserably and practically void of any serious understanding, in my opinion.

I don’t know what you’re calling the church here as the word church seems to mean many different things to many different people. When I think of church (not Church), I think of like minded Christians that make up the Lords Church. You see, church is not a building, it’s the people inside, and there are many different kinds of people in each and every church

Unless one is able to 'live' at church, they receive but a very basic understanding, (watered down milk, say like skim or two percent), and this basic teaching guided in the direction chosen by it's leader, (NO, not Christ or God), a pastor, (if he's lucky), but the elders MOST of the time. And many of these are often Mason's or even persons with very little regard for the Church, but MUCH regard for 'their' church and the prestige that goes along with the 'title'.

exactly, and if you look at my posts from the first to the last, it’s been to try and get people to get past the basic understandings and into deeper thoughts. Let me put it this way, if we are going to be these little shallow church goers, then we don’t have the right to speak harshly of those in other denominations out of sheer arrogance. Look at all the pre-programmed misinformation going out about the catholic church that just isn’t true and the average church attendee has no idea… they’re following a mans opinion and distortions.

As far as our Elders and our Pastor, I have nothing but sheer respect for all of them in the Lords Church and I will show respect accordingly. I don’t say this lightly; I say this because our church is very much in line with Scripture, even if I’m not. That is why I submit to the leaders of the church I attend.

I have NO problem with ANYONE attending churches. I guess if one chooses to be ignorant enough, it is easy to be blind to their workings and content.

If you belong to a church that is a part of the Lords Church, then the work is not the churchs, but it is truly the work of the Lord. I assume that you do not attend a congregation?

If one accepts before understanding, it would be easy to fall in line and follow such practices. I mean look around you. There are still Catholics out there that follow this denomination without being forced to. And you know what Stove, these would tell you the same as you offer only worse. That if you follow not their ways you are lost and unsaved. Their way is the 'only' way. I think you and I both know that this is simply NOT true. (you're not a Catholic I hope).

No, I am not a catholic. Did you understand the fullness of Christ before you accepted Him as your savior? Do you need to know how a tree grows to plant a seed or do you just need to know how to dig a hole, place the seed in it and cover it back up?
Jesus doesn’t call us sheep without a good reason, it’s in our nature. There are so many examples that I could bring up, but I fear they would just get all confused anyway…


I would like to add that I mean NO disrespect to the individuals that choose to follow the Catholic Church. I fault no man for the place that they find themselves as far as 'religion' is concerned. Most have no time to begin to understand it so they do what is easiest and often first in their lives. I mean accept what they are first taught. But I can't help but fault is a church that teachings are contradictory to the Word.

we all have 24 hours in a day… Few will find the narrow road because few will seek beyond their flesh… Yet Jesus is there knocking away. Knock… Knock… Knock… Understand?

And I know how difficult it might be to devote oneself to a 'way of life' and then see the freedom of others that find NO NEED for such devotion. I'm sure in your mind and heart you have been convinced by those that you follow that your way is the ONLY way.

I am not yet that ridged in my thinking. I pray that God will have mercy upon myself and all men and that all men would find His salvation. You see, some would look at me as if I didn’t have a back bone… that I can’t stand my ground… that I am wishy washy… No, I am a patient person without the biblical knowledge to yet say that I am qualified to accuse anyone of being sent to hell. No, It is my hope to stop this silly argument as it does nothing but create discontent further separating truth. It is a deception, a fog that mires and bogs the light of men.


Fortunately for me the only conviction that I have received like that is from my God and His Son Jesus Christ. I am to follow ONLY them, through the Spirit and allow no man to alter or destroy the Word that I receive.

I don’t believe your statement. You are influenced by everything around you since birth including the version of the bible that your read… don’t be so naive and boisterous.

Question Stove, where does your understanding come from? Do you agree with the practices and teachings of your church 100 percent?

It comes from many places including the Bible. I challenge and question most everything and that, it seems gets me in trouble on occasion. When in doubt, I follow what our Church upholds as valuable doctrine as there were men much wiser and knowledgeable than myself sorting through scripture seeking the same truth I seek.

Now, let me ask you one question.
Who lied to you about God that you believed in years past, and then you found out it wasn’t so?
 
StoveBolts said:
Stove,

I don't know if I would call it 'building each other up, by tearing others down' so much as a refreshing feeling one gets when they are acknowledged by another.

Ok, so then should we be bolstered and rally to receive a positive acknowledgment from our peers by negative statements toward our foes? Through my eyes and understanding, that looks like false humility wrapped in ignorance. Furthermore, aren’t we merely lifting each other up as opposed to being lifted up in Spirit (God)?

Stove,

You don't have to be my foe in order for me to point out errors in your behavior or understanding. And I don't direct this at you personally, it's a figure of speach, (using the word 'you'). And what I have tried to offer is a 'truth' of a 'different' sort than that taught by man and his churches. I feel that the farce has been perpetuated long enough and it's time that someone stand up and expose the weakness and decption of our modern churches. If you disagree, you certainly have every right. But through a denial of the falabilty and deception wrought in our churches, all I can deduce is that one obviously is for some reason 'blinded' to them. For Stove, I'm not the only one that understands what I have offered. I find many that have experienced a similar enlightenment as myself understand much of what I have offered. I also understand that there are many that have bought into the teachings of churches, (men), and that they defend their understanding in everyway that they can. Even those that follow EVERY other religion on the planet will do the same. Are they just as 'right' as you are?

Let's say you were in New York as a new comer and everyone you met were of some other religion or of no faith whatsoever. Then, one day you meet a fellow Christian, can you imagine the joy that you would feel? Often I feel the same way when I find someone that has the 'same' kind of understanding as I. There is an indication to me that this person must have experienced much of something similar to myself in order to obtain this understanding.

When you speak of ‘some other religion’, can I safely assume you speak of atheist, Buddhist and the like? Exactly If we are speaking of these folks, then yes, I can and do imagine the joy when we meet another Brother or Sister in Christ. You see, I get excited when we, as Christians, believers and doers in our Savoir Jesus the Christ can come together and share our common faith which through Christ alone, builds us up. But concerning the sorrows and misery of this life, it is comforting when we can experience fellowship with another that has traveled a similar path. Knowing through experience is richer at times in meaning than just knowing.

No, not through Christ alone. We are to offer that which edifies both ourselves and our neighbors and THE CHURCH. Not necesarily in that order with Christ as the HEAD. And often there is absolutely NO WAY to truly know something without experiencing it. I could explain the sensation of flying in an airplane but you would never truly know the feeling until you have done it.

Stove, my understanding has not come easy. And it certainly didn't come from 'other men'. I have read and prayed and read and prayed and ....................................................................................................................

Then we can relate, as we continue to seek for truth, no?

Absolutely. All I offer is that YOUR Salvation is UP TO YOU. The churches teach something that makes this concept almost completely alien to their congregation. Why is that Stove. Why would the churches teach that I 'need' them in order to be saved and follow Christ?

If all I had gained so far in my walk had the churches perpetuate the un-truth that I 'need' them in order to be saved and follow Christ?come from churches, I would be still be stumbling miserably and practically void of any serious understanding, in my opinion.

I don’t know what you’re calling the church here as the word church seems to mean many different things to many different people. When I think of church (not Church), I think of like minded Christians that make up the Lords Church. You see, church is not a building, it’s the people inside, and there are many different kinds of people in each and every church

Ok, what I call the churches are those buildings that men are the head of instead of God. Those places that are full of the sheep that you refer and follow men instead of God. Those places that revel in their doctrine that separates them from 'other' Christians yet preach that we should love our neihbors. Those buildings run by people that continually use guilt tactice to force their congregation into giving more and more. Those buildings run by people who want to pretend to follow Christ but have more materialism in their lives than the average person in their congregation. Those buildings that have turned away from any simblance of The Church and introduce almost anything and everything that 'pleases the people' rather than continuing to uphold the Word of God. Those buildings containing people that are completely unaware of many of the most important understandings concerning their lives and how they shoulc be living them. Those buildings that often house leaders that teach nothing more than 'Jesus loves you' and that's all it takes to be a Christian. I could go on and on but I'm quite sure by now that you have caught my drift. To sum it up, Those buildings that would teach men to rely on them and those that head them up instead of teaching the people the truth in that their Salvation and relationship to God is each and EVERY persons own responsibility and no building full of people or pastor can offer this.

Unless one is able to 'live' at church, they receive but a very basic understanding, (watered down milk, say like skim or two percent), and this basic teaching guided in the direction chosen by it's leader, (NO, not Christ or God), a pastor, (if he's lucky), but the elders MOST of the time. And many of these are often Mason's or even persons with very little regard for the Church, but MUCH regard for 'their' church and the prestige that goes along with the 'title'.

exactly, and if you look at my posts from the first to the last, it’s been to try and get people to get past the basic understandings and into deeper thoughts. Let me put it this way, if we are going to be these little shallow church goers, then we don’t have the right to speak harshly of those in other denominations out of sheer arrogance. Look at all the pre-programmed misinformation going out about the catholic church that just isn’t true and the average church attendee has no idea… they’re following a mans opinion and distortions.


I'm not really sure of your take on the Catholic Church to really understand what you are saying here so suffice is to say Amen as far as the seeking of deeper meaning than 'Jesus loves you'.

As far as our Elders and our Pastor, I have nothing but sheer respect for all of them in the Lords Church and I will show respect accordingly. I don’t say this lightly; I say this because our church is very much in line with Scripture, even if I’m not. That is why I submit to the leaders of the church I attend.

I have NO problem with ANYONE attending churches. I guess if one chooses to be ignorant enough, it is easy to be blind to their workings and content.

If you belong to a church that is a part of the Lords Church, then the work is not the churchs, but it is truly the work of the Lord. I assume that you do not attend a congregation?

And this sounds 'good' Stove, the problem is that through all my seeking I have yet to find 'this church' that you refer to. And I don't live in some small town that only has four churches. I live in booming city that at times seem that there are more churches than fast food restaurants. Much of the 'spirit' that is needed within a group to call itself a part of THE CHURCH seems to have been abandoned on favor of 'the churches', (individual denominations and those that lead them).


If one accepts before understanding, it would be easy to fall in line and follow such practices. I mean look around you. There are still Catholics out there that follow this denomination without being forced to. And you know what Stove, these would tell you the same as you offer only worse. That if you follow not their ways you are lost and unsaved. Their way is the 'only' way. I think you and I both know that this is simply NOT true. (you're not a Catholic I hope).

No, I am not a catholic. Did you understand the fullness of Christ before you accepted Him as your savior? Do you need to know how a tree grows to plant a seed or do you just need to know how to dig a hole, place the seed in it and cover it back up?
Jesus doesn’t call us sheep without a good reason, it’s in our nature. There are so many examples that I could bring up, but I fear they would just get all confused anyway…


No Stove, I am still learning every day and hope to till the day that this fleshly body ceases to contain life. And you are right, we are likened to sheep because it is in our nature to 'follow'. The problem lies in who is leading.

I would like to add that I mean NO disrespect to the individuals that choose to follow the Catholic Church. I fault no man for the place that they find themselves as far as 'religion' is concerned. Most have no time to begin to understand it so they do what is easiest and often first in their lives. I mean accept what they are first taught. But I can't help but fault is a church that teachings are contradictory to the Word.

we all have 24 hours in a day… Few will find the narrow road because few will seek beyond their flesh… Yet Jesus is there knocking away. Knock… Knock… Knock… Understand?

Amen, my brother.

And I know how difficult it might be to devote oneself to a 'way of life' and then see the freedom of others that find NO NEED for such devotion. I'm sure in your mind and heart you have been convinced by those that you follow that your way is the ONLY way.

I am not yet that ridged in my thinking. I pray that God will have mercy upon myself and all men and that all men would find His salvation. You see, some would look at me as if I didn’t have a back bone… that I can’t stand my ground… that I am wishy washy… No, I am a patient person without the biblical knowledge to yet say that I am qualified to accuse anyone of being sent to hell. No, It is my hope to stop this silly argument as it does nothing but create discontent further separating truth. It is a deception, a fog that mires and bogs the light of men.

No, you seem to be very innocent in your understanding and that's a 'good' thing. Unfortunately for myself, I have seen much of the 'other side' of men and their ways and this has certainly offered a much more pesemistic attitude as far as being able to trust men and their ways.


Fortunately for me, the only conviction that I have received like that is from my God and His Son Jesus Christ. I am to follow ONLY them, through the Spirit and allow no man to alter or destroy the Word that I receive.

I don’t believe your statement. You are influenced by everything around you since birth including the version of the bible that your read… don’t be so naive and boisterous.

I didn't say that the life that I have lived is without influence from every angle. But, my understanding of the Bible has had VERY little influence from others. If I am to be judged it will be on what I have been able to learn and understand on my own. I certainly would hate to stand at judgement and have nothing more to offer in my defense than, "That's what they told me to believe".

Question Stove, where does your understanding come from? Do you agree with the practices and teachings of your church 100 percent?

It comes from many places including the Bible. I challenge and question most everything and that, it seems gets me in trouble on occasion. When in doubt, I follow what our Church upholds as valuable doctrine as there were men much wiser and knowledgeable than myself sorting through scripture seeking the same truth I seek.

I don't know what kind of trouble you refer to here. Christ stated that if you truly follow Him, that you will become an enemy of those of your own household. What do you think this means in regards to the rest of the world and those that choose to live in and for it?

Now, let me ask you one question.
Who lied to you about God that you believed in years past, and then you found out it wasn’t so?
Click to expand...

Almost EVERYTHING that I have been told by men and that is contained in their books designed, (supposedly), to help others understand the Bible. There is always just enough truth to deceive the ignorant and unlearned, but it's difficult for them to convince those that have chosen to build a relationship on their own.

I do not refuse to offer my testimony at every opportunity that arises. I do gather with my family in Christs' name. I am not perfect by anyones standards including my own. But I'm not blind either.
 
I do not refuse to offer my testimony at every opportunity that arises. I do gather with my family in Christs' name. I am not perfect by anyones standards including my own. But I'm not blind either.


end of quote;



amen,


Give testimony imagican, boast your Lord!!!!!
 
Imagician,

We think a like in many areas.

Just to clear the slate, I disagree with much of how the catholic church currently expresses herself. However, I have a basic understanding on how she got to where she is today. Because of this, I keep my silence where silence is due. As with your self, I am also not blind, and further regarding myself, where I am a bit shy of seeing, I certainly do not invoke or provoke blindness through anger and malice.

You see, it’s not what you’re able to see, it’s how you respond to that which you do see.
Look at it this way. Paul spoke of what needed to be spoken at the time. Much doctrine was created by Paul, John and Peter. Doctrine appeared because there were obstacles, namely the Gnostics. How much have you studied in regard to the Gnostics? You can’t just read the word of God and delve into it without delving into history. You have to ask the Why’s.
Why did the Church, and it was universal in nature, adopt to give permission to the bishops to forgive sins mid way through the second century? What caused this line of thinking? Why did they go awry? It’s not like one day some bishop thought to himself, hmm, think I’ll go on a power trip today and tell everyone that if you want to be forgiven, ya gotta come to me. It doesn’t work that way..

Nothing, absolutely NOTHING was wrong with the Catholic church in the first century. Now, I shall rant a bit.

Do you know why we have so many denominations? Did you know that by your very words, you are following the same thought patterns of a cult that invaded the first century church? Calvin, Luther etc, they were influenced by some of the earlier saints such as Augustine that was influenced by Plato and other philosophers that didn’t quite get it right either, but hey, they were saints none the less. (I have much respect for Augustine, but especially Clement and Orgin) Yes, religion has been forged through tension. Forged through resistance. But what about that first century? What about before they had the ‘Bible’. Did you know that your bible was canonized around 400 AD by the same Catholics you berate today well into their so called bad theology? I don’t belittle them, I say that they were doing the best they could do at the time. Where they failed, was in the form of repentance… Hey, then in the same breath we have those that will deny third or even second century writings such as revelation of Peter. Did the first century have tension within itself or did it have tension from outside itself? I’ll give you a hint, his name was NERO and although they didn’t have a bible, they had the spirit. Today, we have the bible, but very few use the spirit but when they do, they don’t check it against God’s word (the bible). It’s a sad state of affairs.

So you ask, why did the second century bishops feel they could forgive sins? Because in the first century, people would die before they called Nero Lord. In the second century, they gave in under the persecution and said, ‘hail cesar’… and today, how many of us bow to the mighty dollar?


Stovebolts said:
I am not yet that ridged in my thinking. I pray that God will have mercy upon myself and all men and that all men would find His salvation. You see, some would look at me as if I didn’t have a back bone… that I can’t stand my ground… that I am wishy washy… No, I am a patient person without the biblical knowledge to yet say that I am qualified to accuse anyone of being sent to hell. No, It is my hope to stop this silly argument as it does nothing but create discontent further separating truth. It is a deception, a fog that mires and bogs the light of men.

Imagician said:
No, you seem to be very innocent in your understanding and that's a 'good' thing. Unfortunately for myself, I have seen much of the 'other side' of men and their ways and this has certainly offered a much more pesemistic attitude as far as being able to trust men and their ways.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Unfortunate? I’d say that you have a gift, do not be tempted to use this gift against God’s children. What church do you attend? You may want to check out their doctrine and see how it lines up against the first century church.
 
Stove, I have attended everything short of Benny Hindi at one time or another and have found that each and every one is fraught with problems due to their teachings and lack of the Spirit. At present and for quite a while now my Church is my family and those that are willing to listen and discuss the Word. I spend much more time studying than even thinking about attending a 'separatist' group of people 'playing the game'.

I am forced to wonder if God really wants people gathering under ANYTHING other than His Word to us.

And you are certainly correct. The first Christians were endowed with the Spirit to an extent that we can only hope to obtain. They needed no Bible for the Word was given them through the Spirit.

I disagree with quite a bit of your understanding of the first and second century Church. To an extent there was 'some' of what you refer but there was also much more of the 'falling away' taking place even then.

And the RC was much more responsible for this 'falling away' than you seem willing to give them credit. Rome already had religion and religious leaders long long before the introduction of Christ. Instead of starting over with Christ as the Head, they simply introduced Christ into their previous pagan ways. This is quite obvious when we review their creation of festivals and holidays. Not only in these did they continue in their previous pagan ways, but in many others as far as the leaders of their temples, (churches) and the continuation of the power structure contained within their previous religion. All one has to do is read the Bible and then compare that which they have read to the RC and it's plain as day where their understanding falls short of the 'truth'.
 
Come on you guys, do you not know any scripture??? :sad Read Matthew 4:4
---John
 
I understand if what's in question (Trinity) is somewhat a difficult doctrine to establish or believe in but in my opinion it's not. The evidence for Christ's deity is pretty in your face and obvious. Will I come out and say that people who don't believe in the trinity are hellbound, no. Will I say they are incorrect in their belief, yes.

I've read of so many people saying doctrine is man-made and yet all of Paul's epistles are full of doctrine. Paul was a man indeed, but divinely inspired by Christ himself.
 
John the Baptist said:
Come on you guys, do you not know any scripture??? :sad Read Matthew 4:4
---John
Click to expand...

Hey John,
I can always count on you Brother,
But if I may be brutally honest, it appears that I responded to this thread to help somebody better understand the word of God, to build up and edify and in return, be edified. Unfortunately, it turns out that the presenter of this OP had an agenda to fulfill and hence, the topic was a mere guise to express her insecurities of her faith in Christ Jesus. Brother John, how much longer will I continue to be the fool, to be enticed to evil? How much longer before the roots of bitterness within me take root and my spirit becomes callous and its flame dulled? What a wretched people we are.

I believe I posted some good scriptures in this thread, but I fear that nobody took the time to examine them as their replies were so quick, how could they have read them? There is a trustworthy saying, and that is to not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them. John, not only do they trample, they distort to later use against you. Sin indwelling sin and the Straight Gate, is blurred with wandering feet.


But yes I will post one more piece of scripture, knowing that it will not be read by most and the few that do read it, will not study it long enough to find it's jewels. But before I do, Imagician, please do some history lessons. Search out Marcion and his teacher Cerdo and his effect around 140 AD. Marcion was the son of a Bishop (Elder) but was led astray by Cerdo, a Gnostic leader that had some pretty wild ideas… Tertullian has quite a bit to say about him. Do you history and see the tension in my above post. (Knowing that you won’t do any real research on the topic, I’ll just stop here)

Proverbs 1:10-33 My son, if sinners entice you, consent not. If they say, Come with us, let us lie in wait for blood, let us lurk secretly for the innocent without cause: Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: We shall find all kinds of precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil: Cast in your lot among us; let us all have one purse: My son, walk not in the way with them; refrain your foot from their path: For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood. Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird. And they lie in wait for their own blood; they lurk secretly for their own lives. So are the ways of everyone that is greedy of gain; which takes away the life of its owners. Wisdom cries aloud outside; she raises her voice in the open square: She cries in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she utters her words, saying, How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? and the scoffers delight in their scoffing, and fools hate knowledge? Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But you have ignored all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes; When your terror comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would have none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. But whosoever hearkens unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be secure from the fear of evil.
 
Stove,

You assume much.

I am amazed at how this works. Each and every time someone disagrees and offers valid points in their disagreement, there are many that will simply resort to this type of 'final answer'. That it's simply that I am un-saved or ignorant, (or even worse, being led by Satan to subvert the 'true' sheep). I get it though. It's the same kind of tactic that was used by the Catholic Church to torture and murder those that didn't agree with them too. The only difference is that their power has diminished to the point that all they can do in these times is call those that disagree names and label them heretics. God is good my friend and even though he allowed them plenty of time to condemn themselves, he also took away the power that they once had and now they are suffering the consequences.

You make statements indicating that unless I come to the realization of 'your' truth that I could not have possibly studied the scripture that you have offered. I contend that your acceptance into the man-made doctrine of 'trinity' has led you to interpret these 'parts' of scripture in line with what you have been 'taught' of 'trinity'. That much of what you 'see' in them, simply does not exist. Without one relying upon much imagination, there isn't a way that 'trinity' would even exist.

I'm sorry that we will not be able to simply agree to disagree. I would never say that you are lost simply because of your belief in 'trinity'. I do believe however that we will be judged for whatever we choose to follow that is 'false'. Depending upon the innocence of our hearts concerning any such doctrine. But, for those that choose to teach others or for those that decide to dig deeper, they will certainly be judged all the more intricately. The deeper one gets, the more is expected. The more that is given the more one is held accountable.

And John,

You are absolutely right. Oh but were we able to live by that simple statement. Unfortunately, the only ones that can even come close are those that have aged to the point that they are mostly unable to live any other way. It's the young folks that find this difficult. And even those that reached the point in their lives that they are NOW able to resist that which led their lives years before, they are still stuck in the mode of 'trying' to make up for all those years that they chose to live otherwise. There's not a one of us without regrets in regards to that which we've been unable to resist or that which we have been unable to live up to.

So, your statement is certainly valid, but the problem lies in the difficulty one encounters when trying to live up to it.

And you will find that this was Christ speaking and like much of what Christ was capable of, we are not. I can do all things through Christ...............
but I certainly can't 'be' Christ. I will struggle every day of my life to choose the right path and stay on it. I WILL stumble however. I will run the race like I mean to win it............but will I? Doubtful. All I can do is try and hope and have faith. That still is NO guarantee of anything except that this fleshly body that I possess at this present time will one day, without doubt, cease to exist. I will sleep for a time and then I will face Jesus Christ and His Father. I can only hope that they choose to have mercy on my weak soul.

Why do I offer this? Because i am little different from EVERY other soul on this planet. I am unworthy. I was born in the flesh and will most likely, at least partially, die in the flesh. My ability to understand and discern is only what is offered to me and there's nothing that I can do to change that. Anyone that thinks that they can completely control their destiny is only fooling themselves through undeserved pride. Each and everyone of us is here for a purpose. Whether it be beneficial to God's will or contrary to it, our conscious ability to change the world or ourselves is limited. NO, not by us, but by something much bigger in the scope of the existence of man and his destiny.

Don't ever think for a second that there is NOT a war going on. It's certainly easy to forget at times but it has and will never go away until this earth as we know it ceases to exist. Now, the important part, what side of the battle do we choose to offer our services? And how could we possibly defeat the enemy if we don't even know who they are. Think about it.
 
"I am amazed at how this works. Each and every time someone disagrees and offers valid points in their disagreement, there are many that will simply resort to this type of 'final answer'. That it's simply that I am un-saved or ignorant, (or even worse, being led by Satan to subvert the 'true' sheep). I get it though. It's the same kind of tactic that was used by the Catholic Church to torture and murder those that didn't agree with them too. The only difference is that their power has diminished to the point that all they can do in these times is call those that disagree names and label them heretics. God is good my friend and even though he allowed them plenty of time to condemn themselves, he also took away the power that they once had and now they are suffering the consequences."

******
On and on we go, huh? But the assumption that one is a Vain heretic leaves no doubt as to who just such a one or two are, that the Word of God identifies! It does not matter if one has any Truth or not.
Titus 3:9-11

:sad It would be nice to see one add something beneficial. But it appears that a hobby horse intellect compels some Vain minds??

---John
 
Imagican said:
....

And John,

You are absolutely right. Oh but were we able to live by that simple statement. Unfortunately, the only ones that can even come close are those that have aged to the point that they are mostly unable to live any other way. It's the young folks that find this difficult. And even those that reached the point in their lives that they are NOW able to resist that which led their lives years before, they are still stuck in the mode of 'trying' to make up for all those years that they chose to live otherwise. There's not a one of us without regrets in regards to that which we've been unable to resist or that which we have been unable to live up to.

So, your statement is certainly valid, but the problem lies in the difficulty one encounters when trying to live up to it.

And you will find that this was Christ speaking and like much of what Christ was capable of, we are not. I can do all things through Christ...............
but I certainly can't 'be' Christ. I will struggle every day of my life to choose the right path and stay on it. I WILL stumble however. I will run the race like I mean to win it............but will I? Doubtful. All I can do is try and hope and have faith. That still is NO guarantee of anything except that this fleshly body that I possess at this present time will one day, without doubt, cease to exist. I will sleep for a time and then I will face Jesus Christ and His Father. I can only hope that they choose to have mercy on my weak soul.

Why do I offer this? Because i am little different from EVERY other soul on this planet. I am unworthy. I was born in the flesh and will most likely, at least partially, die in the flesh. My ability to understand and discern is only what is offered to me and there's nothing that I can do to change that. Anyone that thinks that they can completely control their destiny is only fooling themselves through undeserved pride. Each and everyone of us is here for a purpose. Whether it be beneficial to God's will or contrary to it, our conscious ability to change the world or ourselves is limited. NO, not by us, but by something much bigger in the scope of the existence of man and his destiny.

Don't ever think for a second that there is NOT a war going on. It's certainly easy to forget at times but it has and will never go away until this earth as we know it ceases to exist. Now, the important part, what side of the battle do we choose to offer our services? And how could we possibly defeat the enemy if we don't even know who they are. Think about it.
Click to expand...

Well S.Bolts said this I think?

"Good question with many many answers.

Theology is man's understanding on scripture. Good theology is considered orthodox while bad theology is called heresy.

I agree with this. But I might add that the bad stuff is my understanding of it, and that, that is my responsibility, for I cannot read 'others' minds.

Yet, for me personally, I find that the Everlasting Gospel that must be & is Eternally Christ Centered, is Everlasting.. and to have John who penned a whole lot of it in his words of defining, .. that he could leave out any of the complete 2 Timothy 3:16's [Doctrine] inclussion while he had his understanding of the Gospel of Christ as in 2 John 1:9-11. :roll:

And even then I find the ones in Romans 2:14-15 saved with very little knowledge as some have today. And by the looks of things, these ones could have a whole heap more! Check Luke 12:47-48 for both of the thinkers on the Godhead believers even? of which many will be eternally lost, and then ask yourself why??

--John
 
I thought that what I was offering was of some benefit to those that truly wish to understand the original post of this thread. Here's a reminder if forgotten:

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: Questions for every one

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do some denominations believe that if we dont accept their theology, like trinity we are not Christian?

I believe Jesus is son of God and Savior of the world; but why this is not good enough?

Thank you.

I began my replies trying to explain the..........'why'. That didn't please some of you and we digressed to more intricate 'details' of the answer. Then it turns into me being 'vain' in my in my understanding and beliefs. Wow. It's amazing that I still MUST believe in that offered by the churches or I am to be shunned, or worse.

I have yet to meet the man that had 'all the answers'. Yet I have found many here that seem to think that they do. I guess it's easy to believe whatever you choose to be 'correct' if there are simply a group of others that will agree with you, (or you agree with them).

So, since most of what anyone that has responded to according to the original question, has been to refute what I have offered, please, by all means guys, now that you have stated that I am completely wrong, please tell us what is the 'right' answer. Instead of attacking me or my offerings, answer gingercat's question: why is it that everyone that has the same beliefs believes that all others that don't are 'lost'?

One more thing though. Talk about vanity. I just hope that the Savior that you all confess is not quite as judgemental against you as you choose to be against your brothers and sisters. NO, not just you neighbors, your brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
******
On and on we go, huh? But the assumption that one is a Vain heretic leaves no doubt as to who just such a one or two are, that the Word of God identifies! It does not matter if one has any Truth or not.
Titus 3:9-11

It would be nice to see one add something beneficial. But it appears that a hobby horse intellect compels some Vain minds??

---John
_________________


Hay young'in, these are the Master's recorded Words, not mine!
And I do not belong to your 'guesswork' of mind games either of belonging to the Revelation 17:5 church's! :roll:

But, I will bug out & follow the above 'spiritual' advice and click the 'notify me when a reply is posted' square to OFF.

---John
 
I love you John. You crack me up sometimes, but I still love ya brother.
 
gingercat said:
Instead of attacking me or my offerings, answer gingercat's question
Click to expand...
Okay.
gingercat said:
Why do some denominations believe that if we dont accept their theology, like trinity we are not Christian?

I believe Jesus is son of God and Savior of the world; but why this is not good enough?
Click to expand...
I'll answer it with a question: why do you, gingercat, believe that the majority of Christians don't bear "good fruit" and are therefore not Christian? Why is it that you can judge false prophets and false doctrines but no one else can?

From another thread: "We have pelnty of false prophets and false doctrines. The only way to tell whether they are of God or not is to look for the fruit and the majority of the churches are not accepting to talk about the fruit of christianity.

The reason they don't want to or not accepting to talk about is because they don't have much of fruit of Christianity.

It sure seems like satan's heaven to me."

Please, enlighten all of us gingercat.
 
good fruit" and are therefore not Christian?

end of quote;


Free,


When did I say that any one is not Christian?
 
Free,

Billy Graham often states that most churchgoers are not committed Christians. How can uncommitted Christians bear much fruit? Christianity is not as easy as you are making it up to be if you think you can bear fruit without commitment.
 
gingercat said:
When did I say that any one is not Christian?
Click to expand...

From another thread: "Jeff, you believe tongue speaking churches are following God and I discern they are not.

I know most of the churches are hypocritical (that's why I dont attend organized church building) and your kind are even worse. We have to wait and see His judgement when we meet Jesus. Meantime I will speak my convictions."

And that is the same which is implied in your posts above.
 
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