Questions Regarding Free WIll

[th1b.taylor]

I don't find this kind of statement anywhere in Genesis 2.

As I have viewed life, these past 71 years, I have noticed that information is essential to Free Will vs. result and as we study this passage we find God issuing the very first commandment of the Scriptures. Adam knew God forbade the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Let's go deep here because there is a good and valid reason for the blame being on Adam and not on Eve. Adam was given reign over all the Garden, not Eve, she was his help mate.

As a Carpenter running my own Company, I hired male, female, family (never do that), Hetrosexual, Homosexual, born in the US and born but legally immigrated people for help on my jobs. It was my task to insure they understood the rules, not the responsibility of my wife.

When the IRS came after me, Willis D. Taylor, Sr, they wanted no part of "my wife refused to send it because I purchased my Elderly Female, former IRS Agent a thousand dollar set of Diamond Ear Rings for appreciation for the job she was doing for me.

All of that is the same as Adam proclaiming "that woman you gave me made me do it." I was responsible but I used my free will to let two ladies get into a fight that cost me a full day of summer productivity, just as Adam stood there looking at the most beautiful, desirable, woman the world or he had ever seen and no clothing to cover her majesty, thinking, I know what God said but I'm going to die with her.., free will!

 

[smaller]

You have confirmed what I wrote. When you use logical fallacies, it's impossible to have a rational conversation. When you come to grips with what you do, we'll have a basis for continuation of conversations.

Logical Fallacy of Proof by False Declaration of Victory

 

[th1b.taylor]

You have confirmed what I wrote. When you use logical fallacies, it's impossible to have a rational conversation. When you come to grips with what you do, we'll have a basis for continuation of conversations.

Oz, such is the reason the Church is so diluted with Lost People, pride.

 

[smaller]

Oz, such is the reason the Church is so diluted with Lost People, pride.

Meaning people who don't accept the freewill postures? Sorry, that doesn't cut it Bill. There are believers aplenty who do not accept the theological postures of others, including you.

 

[OzSpen]

Genesis 1:29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

[*note-upon the face of all the earth, not just in the Garden of Eden]

Genesis 2:9
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

It's amazing and unbiblical that you only want to quote Gen 2:16 but ignore the context:

The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Gen 2:15-17 ESV)​

Then you also ignore what happened with this command: 'So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate' (Gen 3:6 ESV).

So, you have provided evidence that you don't know how or don't want to interpret in context.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, such is the reason the Church is so diluted with Lost People, pride.

What is that meant to convey?

 

[smaller]

It's amazing and unbiblical that you only want to quote Gen 2:16 but ignore the context:

The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Gen 2:15-17 ESV)​

Then you also ignore what happened with this command: 'So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate' (Gen 3:6 ESV).

So, you have provided evidence that you don't know how or don't want to interpret in context.

Oz

You made a specific claim. That claim was false as shown. Context doesn't eliminate scripture statements.

 

[OzSpen]

You made a specific claim. That claim was false as shown. Context doesn't eliminate scripture statements.

Context interprets statements in any written document. From the beginning of human life in the garden, God gave Adam & Eve the ability to choose, to make a contrary choice.

It hasn't changed since the beginning of time. Remember, 'Choose this day whom you will serve' (Josh 24:15 ESV)?

Pz

 

[OzSpen]

Logical Fallacy of Proof by False Declaration of Victory

Nice try, but it was a red herring. I made no declaration of victory. You confirmed what I had been stating to you that having a rational conversation is made impossible when logical fallacies are used because of the nature of fallacious reasoning.

 

[smaller]

Context interprets statements in any written document. From the beginning of human life in the garden, God gave Adam & Eve the ability to choose, to make a contrary choice.

That is merely an assertion apart from scriptural fact. If you bothered to read my "scriptural critique" of why "freewill is false" regarding Adam and Eve you at least might understand another position, which at this point understanding doesn't exist with you. I understand the freewill postures. I don't accept them as legitimate on the basis of scripture.

It hasn't changed since the beginning of time. Remember, 'Choose this day whom you will serve' (Josh 24:15 ESV)?

Pz

The simplest mistake freewillers make is they quite falsely think that the EVIL PRESENT with them, that God Himself put before us all, cooperates with God. That my friend is an impossibility that no choice can make happen.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Evil, by it's God created nature, does not and can not cooperate or obey God. And that nature is IN MAN. It can not be removed from the flesh.

 

[OzSpen]

That is merely an assertion apart from scriptural fact. If you bothered to read my "scriptural critique" of why "freewill is false" regarding Adam and Eve you at least might understand another position, which at this point understanding doesn't exist with you. I understand the freewill postures. I don't accept them as legitimate on the basis of scripture.


The simplest mistake freewillers make is they quite falsely think that the EVIL PRESENT with them, that God Himself put before us all, cooperates with God. That my friend is an impossibility that no choice can make happen.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Evil, by it's God created nature, does not and can not cooperate or obey God. And that nature is IN MAN. It can not be removed from the flesh.

Do you want me to read your statements in context or not?

 

[smaller]

Do you want me to read your statements in context or not?

I'd be satisfied if you even understood them.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Meaning people who don't accept the freewill postures? Sorry, that doesn't cut it Bill. There are believers aplenty who do not accept the theological postures of others, including you.

You have been rude once more! You have inserted foot in mouth as yuou will see if you will go back, reread, in context, I find no reason to condemn either position as a Salvic Issue for it is not.

 

[th1b.taylor]

What is that meant to convey?

Logical fallacy, reasoning our way around what God has wrought, has so infected the Church that few are we that, just, accept what God has said, period.

 

[smaller]

You have been rude once more! You have inserted foot in mouth as yuou will see if you will go back, reread, in context, I find no reason to condemn either position as a Salvic Issue for it is not.

No Bill, I do not believe in "freewill." Sorry if that offends you but it is a position that I can not attribute to Gods Word.

There are 3 wills factually in operation "IN" believers. The Will of God. The will of the man. And the will of the tempter.

Scripture shows this to be an accurate picture. Our wills do not exist in a vacuum called "me" only.

Here for example Paul shows a conflicting will in operation in believers:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This contrariness is "active." And yes, the Spirit is against this other will IN our flesh. The Spirit is the enemy of our flesh because of the lust in same. This conflict is not removed by "choice." And can not be removed by choice. Evil is present within us as it was present in Paul's own flesh. Romans 7:17-21.

Paul knew the terror of God because of this fact. He certainly had no basis to brag, and didn't. But rather exposed his weaknesses and even gloried in them.

 

[th1b.taylor]

No Bill, I do not believe in "freewill." Sorry if that offends you but it is a position that I can not attribute to Gods Word.

Smaller,
I SAID and you ignored, this is one of those Satanic Issues for division. This issue has reason for both points of view and is not an issue of salvation, remember the Great Commission?

 

[WIP]

What did the Philippian jailer say to Paul & Silas after the great earthquake left them and the other prisoners out of prison? What was Paul & Silas's answer to the jailer's request?

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household"' (Acts 16:30-31 ESV).​

Oz

But then there is this....
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV

And this....
Surely you have things turned around!
Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
“He did not make me”?
Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?
Isaiah 29:16 NKJV

And this...
But now, O Lord,
You are our Father;
We are the clay, and You our potter;
Isaiah 64:8 NKJV

And this...
The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand."
Jeremiah 18:1-6 NKJV

And this...
O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"
Romans 2:20-21 NKJV

Do we ever have the right to even boast of our faith? Is God in control or we?

 

[Hospes]

If I believe and trust in Jesus, does God owe me salvation?

WIP, it's always dangerous to figure out implications so let me know if I am wrong about what I see your your question implying.

I think God owes us nothing. “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” (Romans 11:35 ESV) Also, I find it vile to think that before I was redeemed - an enemy of God who had continually from birth rejected the Fount and Living Water and worked hard at trying to find satisfaction elsewhere - had leverage on God. (Jeremiah 2:12-13) So I think you intended your question as rhetorical on one level.

Also, I think you are implying that the receiver of a gift has no grounds for boasting, if the gift was from a person who has zero obligation to give, regardless of what the receiver did to get the gift. This is a strong argument. The only possible weakness I see is in the question "If a gift is worked for, can it be a gift or does the receiver's work obligate the giver?" Which leads to another question regarding free will:

Does the free will decision to believe the Gospel obligate God to save the person? In essence, does it have God "over the barrel?" (My apologies to anyone not familiar with the colloquialism "over the barrel".)

BTW, it was a very thought provoking question. Thanks.

 

[th1b.taylor]

But then there is this....
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV

And this....
Surely you have things turned around!
Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
“He did not make me”?
Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?
Isaiah 29:16 NKJV

And this...
But now, O Lord,
You are our Father;
We are the clay, and You our potter;
Isaiah 64:8 NKJV

And this...
The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand."
Jeremiah 18:1-6 NKJV

And this...
O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"
Romans 2:20-21 NKJV

Do we ever have the right to even boast of our faith? Is God in control or we?

PRAISE GOD!

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
I SAID and you ignored, this is one of those Satanic Issues for division. This issue has reason for both points of view and is not an issue of salvation, remember the Great Commission?

I'm glad you clarified. It didn't sound that way in the post I addressed. For the record I don't condemn "freewillers" to potential hell based on their understandings of freewill. Determinist positions have problems too.