Questions Regarding Free WIll

[Hospes]

I know that you, and perhaps Hospes, are very understanding towards where I'm coming from.

Yes I agree we are guilty. But guilty of what? While I believe that we are guilty of pondering whether God is trustworthy, are we not also guilty of believing in free will? What if God only lives in us by grace through trust? Notice that in my first post #16 on this thread, I ask this question. "how would a person who chose to do good, know it was their free will and not a spiritual quality endowed by their Maker?" I believe that we are guilty of not acknowledging God as the source of all wisdom, and therefore we are not recognizing His Spirit as the source of our goodness. It seems to me that only through believing in free will could we be gullible enough to believe He may be untrustworthy. I've noticed in my life that empathy is a shared Spirit. Only through empathy can we feel what others feel. That is why free will in the moral/immoral sense is so problematic to me. Notice these scriptures:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened......We should all wonder what it is that we were unthankful for that would also rob God of His Glory?

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.......If we think that we freely choose to do good or evil, when it is actually God/Love that moves us to will to do good, then wouldn't that make God into a lie and be worshipping and serving the creature over the Creator?

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:......This word "dishonor" in the blue letter lexicon means this, "to dishonour, insult, treat with contempt". So what is this lust in our hearts? It seems to me that it's to put down others in vain comparisons over who is the more righteous. This can only occur in a free will mindset where every person is responsible for their moral or immoral actions.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;.......Finally, if we have moral/immoral free wills, how is it possible for God to have the power to give us over to a reprobate mind? If we had a free will that was freely choosing between good and evil, then we could just simply choose to not become all of these things:
9 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Childeye,
Though I have restrained from giving my own doctrine regarding free will, your post compels me to say a bit about it.

I found in the repeated phrase "God gave them up" (ESV) in verses 24, 26, and 28 a principle that is a pillar of my doctrine on this topic of free will. Specifically, I have come to believe it is only the gracious restraining hand of God that causes any person to choose good. I believe given my own independent choice between good and evil, I would always choose evil. Apart from God's grace, I would be in enmity with my Lord and God. These verses tell me he only needs to let go of me for me to fall toward evil just as a rock will fall to the ground when a person lets it drop from their hand. It is truly by grace I am saved through faith and it is not my own doing. It is a gift of God.

 

[Hospes]

Another question:

If you are influenced to choose a certain way, does the influence rob you of your free will? Here's an analogy to help clarify my question:

If I offered you $5 to sleep in a tent for a year, you'd probably scoff at me and resist my influence. (Of course, those of you who come cheap can stop reading now! ) If I keep upping the $$ offered, I bet there is some point you'd say, "I'll do it." Did my influence of offering you $$ rob you of your free will?

Absolutely not, it is still my choice to live that way or to reject it.

Thanks for the reply. Given that you do not think influence that sways a decision means you were robbed of your free will, let me paint another scenariao for you.

Could it be that God - as a person given to being magnificently gracious and desiring to demonstrate just how powerful he is - chose to influence a man in desperate need of saving from a life of honkytonk debauchery by arranging the man's circumstances, opening the eyes of the man's heart to the beauty of the Gospel and the ugliness of his own sin, in such a way that the man's will was swayed by it all to the point he desired the redemption in Christ more than any alternative? Let's make it even more dramatic by saying the man was a Texan. ​

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering. "Random" to me means, no particular reasoning behind the choice/decision. So it sounds like you're saying the choice/decision between good and evil is random when you say this, I've never understood why you think the decision is not random. Therefore it's confusing to me when you then say, "Just because we're born again, we are still influenced by evil". It's not that I disagree with the statement, but being influenced by evil is not a random occurrence. For example a lie exists only to subvert the Truth. There is a reasoning behind evil that influences people, it's not random but has purpose in undermining God..

My bad Childeye.
You're right!
The decision between choosing good or evil is NOT random. Evil is not random. It has a purpose. The purpose is as you say: To undermine God, to pull us away from Him. The ever-present battle for our soul and between good and evil.
I misspoke, and agree with you.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

.
W,
Think of it like this..
If there is no Cross, No Blood, No Jesus, and No God, then what value is your Faith?
If there is no atonement, no redemption, and no justification, then what value is your Faith?
Its NOTHING....its a meaningless pointless mental ascension.
Faith is DEAD-Useless, = unless it has something to TRUST, and so what we place our Trust IN..., is the REDEEMER, is what gives our Faith hope, and value.
So, Faith is meaningless ( regarding salvation), if there is not that available which actually Saves you,.... and that is not your Faith saving you... That is God accepting your faith, and then HE SAVES you.
"""(Faith, is counted as Righteousness)."""
Faith, is not the Savior.
Faith, didnt hang on a Cross and die.
Faith, shed no blood for you and me.
Faith, is only the transmission device (condition) that releases God to give us His Grace that is the "Gift of Righteousness" that is the blood Atonement, that IS our eternal security, that SAVES us.

But then there would be nothing to have faith in!
Faith would be of no value.

it IS of value precisely because of the atonement.
God is present.
The atonement is present.
Both happened. We cannot deny that. They exist.

Okay. Now what?

NOW, it is our FAITH that saves us. It's a given that Jesus died to save us - we now must accept this gift.
If we don't accept it by faith, we are not saved.

Isn't this what Ephesians is all about?
Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH..." NASB

Of course it is God accepting our faith. Of course it is HE saving us. But it is this faith that God accepts that saves us.

Is a person with no faith saved?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

-
It seems this way to you because the context of 95% of my posts are generally focused on a few here who are putting too much emphasis on their faith as the means of KEEPING THEIR salvation, instead of on the one who saved them, AND IS KEEPING IT FOR THEM.
-
HOSPES,...
If you read James, he says.....can "faith" save you.?
And the answer is, NO.... and this is because God saves you, and James is showing you this distinction.
James obviously knows that you cant please God without faith, and God cant save you without your "decision moment" of Faith, yet he says "can faith save you".
There are those here who are putting too much emphasis on worrying about keeping their "Faith", when they are already Saved by God, and dont have to worry.
So, just as James would tell you...= stop talking about your faith or worrying about it, and go out and DO SOMETHING FOR GOD BECAUSE YOU >ARE< SAVED .......I will tell you the same....

Hebrews 8:12
Hebrews 12:2
Philippians 1:6

I'm very surprised you chose to quote James. It's exactly James who says that works are necessary. He says that faith without works is useless.
James 2:20

I'm one that believes you must have faith to be saved.

You don't have faith = you're lost
You have faith = you're saved
You don't have faith = you're lost

You're lost if you don't have faith. What does it matter WHEN?
You were lost before you had faith and you would be lost again without that same faith.

Then you end by saying to forget about worrying about our faith and to go out and do something. Because we ARE saved. Of course. Being saved brings about a transformation in a person. Works become a necessary part of life. By works I understand anything you do to please God. It could be smiling at a stranger who needs a smile.

So if we're both saved by the blood of Jesus shed on the cross
Through faith
And we both believe in doing good works...

What is the difference?

Allow me the liberty of believing I could lose my salvation. Why does this bother those on your side so?

It seems to me that it should be more bothersome to those on my side to hear that works are not necessary to remain saved, through faith which brings about good works, and thus lead some new Christian to believe absolutely nothing is required of him.

And did Paul really NOT believe in works?
What about Romans 2:6-7, 10, 13, 26-27?
Romans 1:13 Not the hearer of the Word, but the DOER of the Word will be justified.

Also, you might want to read this:
http://d3pi8hptl0qhh4.cloudfront.net/documents/tschreiner/BBR_3.pdf

Many, including yourself, are of the opinion that Jesus taught works and Paul taught grace. Although I would generally tend to agree, I do believe that even Paul spoke of works. As in Romans.

Wondering

 

[childeye]

I see the works of the law as dead works because they are all about what not to do, while works of faith are living works which are things we that we should be doing out of the Love for others. Hence no man is justified by the works of the law.

 

[childeye]

Childeye,
Though I have restrained from giving my own doctrine regarding free will, your post compels me to say a bit about it.

I found in the repeated phrase "God gave them up" (ESV) in verses 24, 26, and 28 a principle that is a pillar of my doctrine on this topic of free will. Specifically, I have come to believe it is only the gracious restraining hand of God that causes any person to choose good. I believe given my own independent choice between good and evil, I would always choose evil. Apart from God's grace, I would be in enmity with my Lord and God. These verses tell me he only needs to let go of me for me to fall toward evil just as a rock will fall to the ground when a person lets it drop from their hand. It is truly by grace I am saved through faith and it is not my own doing. It is a gift of God.

My deductive and inductive reasoning is based upon the premise that God is Love, God is good, God is Eternal, and God is Life. It is not by any coincidence that we arrive at the same conclusions from different approaches, since there is only One Spirit of Truth that testifies to the Father and the Son. I'm pretty sure that you know what I mean. God has given you to be possessed of a big picture to be able to say the things you say.

I apologize if I have caused you to reveal more than you had intended to in this thread.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see the works of the law as dead works because they are all about what not to do, while works of faith are living works which are things we that we should be doing out of the Love for others. Hence no man is justified by the works of the law.

Of course.
We are no longer under the Law
But under Grace.

We do works because we WANT to
NOT because we're told to by a church, but by Jesus Himself.
And not toward the goal of salvation since it's impossible to save ourself,
but exactly because we do know the Lord and wish to give Him a drink when He says:
"I thirst."

Wondering

 

[th1b.taylor]

Thanks for the reply. Given that you do not think influence that sways a decision means you were robbed of your free will, let me paint another scenariao for you.

Could it be that God - as a person given to being magnificently gracious and desiring to demonstrate just how powerful he is - chose to influence a man in desperate need of saving from a life of honkytonk debauchery by arranging the man's circumstances, opening the eyes of the man's heart to the beauty of the Gospel and the ugliness of his own sin, in such a way that the man's will was swayed by it all to the point he desired the redemption in Christ more than any alternative? Let's make it even more dramatic by saying the man was a Texan. ​

LOL! Perfect, before answering, allow me to finish the painting. God being so powerful, had spoken to this fella more than 23 years earlier, in His way, called the man and had spent that 23 years, let's say, kicking his feet out from under him.

Yes, God influenced but that man still had the free will to resist those 23+ years and the free will to give in, yield, at any point. And here it becomes tricky and debatable for those silly enough to go beyond intelligent discussion.

I have the free will to remain or to leave. Now, God being omnipresent knows who stays and who goes as well as who never makes any commitment at all. Were the ones that made short-term commitments saved or were they never His?

From my personal point of view, except they return, a prodigal, they never had their names in the Book of Life except in their imaginations. Arguable on both sides from scripture and not resolvable without the Book of Life being opened.

This is one great study, my friend.

 

[smaller]

LOL! Perfect, before answering, allow me to finish the painting. God being so powerful, had spoken to this fella more than 23 years earlier, in His way, called the man and had spent that 23 years, let's say, kicking his feet out from under him.

Yes, God influenced but that man still had the free will to resist those 23+ years and the free will to give in, yield, at any point. And here it becomes tricky and debatable for those silly enough to go beyond intelligent discussion.

I might suggest that even after salvation all remain under the influences of a resisting will that is not their own.

We all maintain a resisting will, post salvation.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This resisting will that was not Paul was shown here for our examples:

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

 

[Hospes]

LOL! Perfect, before answering, allow me to finish the painting. God being so powerful, had spoken to this fella more than 23 years earlier, in His way, called the man and had spent that 23 years, let's say, kicking his feet out from under him.

Yes, God influenced but that man still had the free will to resist those 23+ years and the free will to give in, yield, at any point. And here it becomes tricky and debatable for those silly enough to go beyond intelligent discussion.

I have the free will to remain or to leave. Now, God being omnipresent knows who stays and who goes as well as who never makes any commitment at all. Were the ones that made short-term commitments saved or were they never His?

From my personal point of view, except they return, a prodigal, they never had their names in the Book of Life except in their imaginations. Arguable on both sides from scripture and not resolvable without the Book of Life being opened.

This is one great study, my friend.

Bill, I look forward to meeting you on the other side for various reasons among which is - if my theology proves right in the light of eternity - I look forward to telling a Texan I was more right than he was. (I know this is so wrong; it's just a part of me that God has not gotten around to making good.) Of course, if I am wrong, we'll talk about other topics.

Makes me smile to know you think the thread is great.

 

[childeye]

CE,
Lusting is a thing I know well. I spent twenty-five years playing around on stage lusting after the women, after the fame, and after the lth to be found there for any man or woman with half as much talent and with as good or often better sense of timing.

Lust is not a sexual thing any more than rape is. Lust and rape are directly linked to one another and are centered on the self-controlled desire for satisfaction and nothing more... Lust! Since we are busy discussing scripture and any student of scripture knows that all scripture is the inspired Word of God.

Mr. Taylor, I am made of flesh also. Lust to me is seeking a satisfaction that only exists in one's imagination. So there is never any real lasting satisfaction in those things that are vanity. Every conquest of every woman is only a fleeting satisfaction that leaves a person in the same place they started, in desire for the next conquest all in service to one's own ego. Fame and fortune are also vain forms of a measure of one's worth. In contrast, give me the person who has the Love and sense of service to volunteer to clean the toilets or change the diapers of the elderly in the Old folks home. Such a person are those who have fame and fortune in the kingdom of God.

God and what the indwelling Holy Spirit proves to be true are the only proof for or of anything spiritual.

I agree with this, and I endeavor to only uphold those teachings that the Holy Spirit has proven to me to be True.

This of course leaves us with what God has wrought for a study of what has been and what will be. How about we stick there and not try to provoke me into one more string, with me expressing my concerns for your soul resulting in me being awarded a Coffee Break or permanent removal. Let's leave that to the Father and on His timing.

There is nothing wrong with you expressing concerns for my soul. However, if I may say, your approach is without the humility that even considers that what I have to say might be something you have overlooked.

Vanity is a blindness. Neither one of us would see our vanity. God has to show me mine constantly. Which is why I am certain that we don't have free wills. Consider the Pharisees and what they were blind to. Are you able to comprehend what they were blind to? Can you also perceive what Truth, that had they possessed it, they would not have been blind? Can you predict the inevitable and unavoidable course and the end results of one's actions when blind to this Truth?

I can find no supporting scripture for your conclusions and in all honesty, your opinion matters no more than mine does. Neither of us are God.

Respectfully, this to me is a mistake. The Truth has power to convict and is therefore authoritative in renewing the mind. You think that I am expressing my opinion, when to me, I'm simply being honest in declaring what I see as self -evident Truth verified in scripture. And I think that you do this because it conflicts with your long held opinions. Here's the fact I am declaring that is not my opinion; People who are blind do not have free-wills to choose to see. The course of the blind can therefore be easily predicted.
Luke 6:39
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
You see, there's nothing for us to argue about here. This is not my opinion. The blind will indeed fall into a ditch. They therefore do not have free wills to choose otherwise. Jesus is simply saying that we need to have our blindness removed so as to be able to see and not fall into a ditch.

 

[GodsGrace]

Childeye,
Though I have restrained from giving my own doctrine regarding free will, your post compels me to say a bit about it.

I found in the repeated phrase "God gave them up" (ESV) in verses 24, 26, and 28 a principle that is a pillar of my doctrine on this topic of free will. Specifically, I have come to believe it is only the gracious restraining hand of God that causes any person to choose good. I believe given my own independent choice between good and evil, I would always choose evil. Apart from God's grace, I would be in enmity with my Lord and God. These verses tell me he only needs to let go of me for me to fall toward evil just as a rock will fall to the ground when a person lets it drop from their hand. It is truly by grace I am saved through faith and it is not my own doing. It is a gift of God.

Hospes,
If the highlighted and underlined above is true, how do you explain agnostics or atheists doing good works?
Even they don't always choose evil. Even they could have high moral values. Even they follow the natural law. So they do NOT always choose evil. Just as we do not always choose good. You cannot make a blanket statement such as this.

Man tends toward evil, that does not mean he always choose it. A believer will be more inclined to choose the good than a non-believer because he understands the consequences - harming others or himself.

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

My bad Childeye.
You're right!
The decision between choosing good or evil is NOT random. Evil is not random. It has a purpose. The purpose is as you say: To undermine God, to pull us away from Him. The ever-present battle for our soul and between good and evil.
I misspoke, and agree with you.

Wondering

You're making this whole thing up.

 

[Hospes]

Hospes,
If the highlighted and underlined above is true, how do you explain agnostics or atheists doing good works?
Even they don't always choose evil. Even they could have high moral values. Even they follow the natural law. So they do NOT always choose evil. Just as we do not always choose good. You cannot make a blanket statement such as this.

Man tends toward evil, that does not mean he always choose it. A believer will be more inclined to choose the good than a non-believer because he understands the consequences - harming others or himself.

Wondering

I see them through the lens of Romans 1. Notice when it says "God gave them up" it is speaking of the non-Christians. Given this, I see God being kind and gracious to the non-Christian in restraining them from sliding further into the evil of which all of us are prone. So even the good they do and the "high moral values" they have are only theirs because God has given them grace. "What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it? (1 Corinthians 4:7 ESV) BTW, even for the good works Christians like you and I do, we have no grounds for boasting as if we did them apart from God's gracious hand at work in us.

Side note, given verses like "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:8 ESV) and "...For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." (Romans 14:23 ESV), I am not sure if any of the "good works" by a non-Christian count for anything good.

 

[smaller]

From experience I'd have to say both freewill and determinism postures contain certain deceptions.

Having started in the freewill camps I took it for granted that it was the case. IF the scriptures are approached in our own determined eyes we will always tend to read, not necessarily what is therein, but what we think we see. IF we think freewill, then we get what is called confirmation bias. Every time we see a "choice" being made by a person in the scriptures, it seems to confirm our predetermined bias to see it. The area I grew up in and got saved in didn't have determinist churches. In fact these sects were frowned upon by the freewill camps. I had only heard of them splitting the churches of Protestants. And older orthodoxy is pretty well set in the freewill postures and have similar views.

We might think that confirmation bias is a new/modern term. But Hebrews 4:12: speaks exactly to this principle, that the Word reflects the thoughts and intentions of our hearts. Some older believers used to describe this to me as this: "As we study the Word we eventually discover that it's really moreso studying us." I thought that rather strange at the time. Other scripture may describe this similar confirmation bias in the scripture, "as a man thinks in his heart, so he is." Having also studied the ways of the world quite thoroughly in my late teens and early 20's I was quite familiar with the schools of positive thinking as a way to control our individual destiny. So all of these things tended to settle me in on freewill, at least until I had an experience with God in Christ. It was then I set about with quite firm resolve to eliminate every sin in my life. I basically criticized and critiqued everything I did and every move I made in the light of what I thought I knew from the scriptures in order to walk the walk and talk the talk.

But in time I made some ugly discoveries. I could be sailing along quite nicely, thinking the God of all creation was with me and blessing me, etc etc. and then some event would prove it otherwise, like an unexpected expense or other external event came out of nowhere would come and blindside me and set me back. And my bias to freewill would write it off as some kind of test of "my" faith that I had to overcome. Certainly of the devil, not God. No, not God. It really never occured to me that such things could be from God. He would not after all, interfere with "my" will. It was free. But then again, IF God was this all powerful being, supposedly with me and blessing me, then why did these things happen? That was probably the source of the first crack in my freewill boat. Then I'd fall into begging and praying to God to not let these things happen, to destroy His blessings upon me. And of course these kinds of prayers would go without answers other than to have even "more trials."

The real cracks that these various external events caused only grew wider. Some of them managed to strike me the most when "in church." I was an RCC member in good standing at the time, and we would go through the exercises of confession, repentance, contrition, etc. to prepare our hearts and minds to receive communion, needing our "freewill" to partake worthily of course, and I would be feeling pretty good about myself, and get all the way to the altar for communion. And then no sooner turn around and be blindsided by some adverse thought. They seemed to come out of left field, not by my will at all. Just random thoughts. Random thought events. So I set about to try to pin these down so they would not transpire. That is where I ran smack into brick wall. I realized before the bombardment that the "world" was always trying to force upon me. Everywhere I turned I saw people manipulating each others for profits. Vile ads selling sexuality on teevee for example, using subtle seductions to sell products. Using postures of being a "man of the world, successful, by doing X" (whatever) to sell their produce were other forms of manipulations. These really go on perpetually. And I had long prior just had to turn that all off, because I couldn't stand or tolerate the manipulations upon my mind.

But eventually it was my own random thoughts blindsiding me that got the best of me. I tried to chalk them up to my old man, my Adamic nature, just about every excuse I could make, but that still didn't satisfy me. I wanted to be rid of them completely. I only wanted to be CLEAN and PERFECT before my Maker, without the need of 'excuses.' I am not a man given to "excuses."

But, in the end I found out this quest was impossible. It was nothing more than a religious fantasy of my own devices. And once again I saw the frailties of my own mind in even trying this approach to God in Christ. It was neither true nor achievable. And those who thought it was, I then saw as "deceived" themselves.

My own supposed freewill turned out to be my worst enemy, soiling the religious bed I sought to sleep in.

It was about this time that Jesus pointed out to me, in His Word, that evil comes from within. It's not a maybe. No freewill can stop that from happening. It's built into our minds and no amount of freewill applications or choices can make it otherwise. This IS our internal reality. We can excuse it. We can cover it up. We can brush it off in any number of ways, but this IS our internal reality:

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

And no amount of freewill applied is going to make one single bit of difference to this internal reality.

Paul made a similar discovery or set of them that I grew to appreciate very much so in Romans 7. And he concluded in Romans 7:21, this law, that evil was present with him.

I learned a LOT more about determinism and predestination when I saw myself, internally, ACCURATELY, from the scriptures. I no longer had to "pretend" that I didn't have evil present within me. I could be honest before God in Christ. Not having to give Him excuses. Not trying to run away from the obvious. Not trying to be someone I was not.

That in itself was very "freeing." Even though the conclusions were personally unpleasant. The very LAST shoes I want to stand in is being a liar before my Maker.

 

[Hospes]

Another question:

If it is our own decision, made freely and independently, to do good - in this case to decide to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ - how can we not have a claim to boast, given we freely/independently made the decision that initiated our salvation? A closely related question, what does the lack of boasting mean in the following verses?

[Paul, writing of our salvation] Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. (Romans 3:27 ESV)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV)​

 

[th1b.taylor]

Another question:

If it is our own decision, made freely and independently, to do good - in this case to decide to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ - how can we not have a claim to boast, given we freely/independently made the decision that initiated our salvation? A closely related question, what does the lack of boasting mean in the following verses?

[Paul, writing of our salvation] Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. (Romans 3:27 ESV)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV)​

Your Eph. verse lays out the reason. I accepted the call but I had no power to cause the call of God, all I did was bow my will to His will. And remember, it is His will that none should perish. 2Pet. 3:9

 

[Hospes]

Your Eph. verse lays out the reason. I accepted the call but I had no power to cause the call of God, all I did was bow my will to His will. And remember, it is His will that none should perish. 2Pet. 3:9

Bill, I still struggle with the idea I can "bow my will to his" and yet have no grounds for boasting. Yes, if he had not called you, you would not now be saved. Then again, if you had not bowed your will to his call, you'd not now be saved. Sounds like it was a mutual agreement in which both parties can take varying degrees of credit, i.e. boast.

BTW, back in post #49 I asked you "When you think of your wonderful salvation, do you sense any bit of patting yourself on the back for making the right decision?" I fully expected you to shrink away from the idea - and worried you'd take it as an accusation - you had any reason to "pat yourself on the back" because I have yet to meet a person showing the marks of a born-again believer who feels at all comfortable with taking any credit for God's redemption of their life. Anyway, I find this seeming contradiction in my free-will friends almost funny in that they hold a doctrine that seems to me to say they were instrumental in their own salvation but are not at all comfortable in saying "I deserve some credit for my own salvation." Their unadulterated gratitude to God for granting them salvation is as every bit as real as my own.

I love 2 Peter 3:9. The interesting question for the person believing that some are not saved is "If God is not willing that any should perish, then why do some not repent and in the end perish? is he not capable of doing as he wills?"

 

[chessman]

And remember, it is His will that none should perish. 2Pet. 3:9

I love 2 Peter 3:9. The interesting question for the person believing that some are not saved is "If God is not willing that any should perish, then why do some not repent and in the end perish? is he not capable of doing as he wills?"

2 Peter 3:8-9 (NKJV) But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. ​

Peter says that God is not willing that any of the beloved should perish. He DOES NOT say that God is not willing that any of the un-beloved should not perish.

Nor does Jesus:

John 3:16 (NKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. ​

Notice, Jesus DOES NOT say 'God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that the world should not perish'

John 3:18 (NKJV) “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ​