Questions Regarding Free WIll

[WIP]

If I believe and trust in Jesus, does God owe me salvation?

 

[th1b.taylor]

You seek to the impily that one scripture over rides the other space but that is not true. No scripture comma passage of scripture, collection of scripture can never be understood without the light of all scripture shining on it / them. You're scripture must be understood in conjunction with the 2nd Peter 3 scripture I posted they do not oppose one another there is no conflict in scripture except to him who is not end well with the Holy Spirit.

 

[reba]

Bill, I still struggle with the idea I can "bow my will to his" and yet have no grounds for boasting.

Here you are Mr. Hospes a simple guy not a ball player standing in the batters box and Sandy Koufax is burning a fast ball by ya.. Is it a boast to hear called out in three pitches
That is just dumb ol baseball .. Now you are facing The King of Kings The Lord of ALL and He says come .. you follow that is not a boast.. it is obedience.

 

[th1b.taylor]

If I believe and trust in Jesus, does God owe me salvation?

Amen!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Here you are Mr. Hospes a simple guy not a ball player standing in the batters box and Sandy Koufax is burning a fast ball by ya.. Is it a boast to hear called out in three pitches
That is just dumb ol baseball .. Now you are facing The King of Kings The Lord of ALL and He says come .. you follow that is not a boast.. it is obedience.

Praise God!

 

[OzSpen]

From experience I'd have to say both freewill and determinism postures contain certain deceptions.

Having started in the freewill camps I took it for granted that it was the case. IF the scriptures are approached in our own determined eyes we will always tend to read, not necessarily what is therein, but what we think we see. IF we think freewill, then we get what is called confirmation bias. Every time we see a "choice" being made by a person in the scriptures, it seems to confirm our predetermined bias to see it. The area I grew up in and got saved in didn't have determinist churches. In fact these sects were frowned upon by the freewill camps. I had only heard of them splitting the churches of Protestants. And older orthodoxy is pretty well set in the freewill postures and have similar views.

We might think that confirmation bias is a new/modern term. But Hebrews 4:12: speaks exactly to this principle, that the Word reflects the thoughts and intentions of our hearts. Some older believers used to describe this to me as this: "As we study the Word we eventually discover that it's really moreso studying us." I thought that rather strange at the time. Other scripture may describe this similar confirmation bias in the scripture, "as a man thinks in his heart, so he is." Having also studied the ways of the world quite thoroughly in my late teens and early 20's I was quite familiar with the schools of positive thinking as a way to control our individual destiny. So all of these things tended to settle me in on freewill, at least until I had an experience with God in Christ. It was then I set about with quite firm resolve to eliminate every sin in my life. I basically criticized and critiqued everything I did and every move I made in the light of what I thought I knew from the scriptures in order to walk the walk and talk the talk.

But in time I made some ugly discoveries. I could be sailing along quite nicely, thinking the God of all creation was with me and blessing me, etc etc. and then some event would prove it otherwise, like an unexpected expense or other external event came out of nowhere would come and blindside me and set me back. And my bias to freewill would write it off as some kind of test of "my" faith that I had to overcome. Certainly of the devil, not God. No, not God. It really never occured to me that such things could be from God. He would not after all, interfere with "my" will. It was free. But then again, IF God was this all powerful being, supposedly with me and blessing me, then why did these things happen? That was probably the source of the first crack in my freewill boat. Then I'd fall into begging and praying to God to not let these things happen, to destroy His blessings upon me. And of course these kinds of prayers would go without answers other than to have even "more trials."

The real cracks that these various external events caused only grew wider. Some of them managed to strike me the most when "in church." I was an RCC member in good standing at the time, and we would go through the exercises of confession, repentance, contrition, etc. to prepare our hearts and minds to receive communion, needing our "freewill" to partake worthily of course, and I would be feeling pretty good about myself, and get all the way to the altar for communion. And then no sooner turn around and be blindsided by some adverse thought. They seemed to come out of left field, not by my will at all. Just random thoughts. Random thought events. So I set about to try to pin these down so they would not transpire. That is where I ran smack into brick wall. I realized before the bombardment that the "world" was always trying to force upon me. Everywhere I turned I saw people manipulating each others for profits. Vile ads selling sexuality on teevee for example, using subtle seductions to sell products. Using postures of being a "man of the world, successful, by doing X" (whatever) to sell their produce were other forms of manipulations. These really go on perpetually. And I had long prior just had to turn that all off, because I couldn't stand or tolerate the manipulations upon my mind.

But eventually it was my own random thoughts blindsiding me that got the best of me. I tried to chalk them up to my old man, my Adamic nature, just about every excuse I could make, but that still didn't satisfy me. I wanted to be rid of them completely. I only wanted to be CLEAN and PERFECT before my Maker, without the need of 'excuses.' I am not a man given to "excuses."

But, in the end I found out this quest was impossible. It was nothing more than a religious fantasy of my own devices. And once again I saw the frailties of my own mind in even trying this approach to God in Christ. It was neither true nor achievable. And those who thought it was, I then saw as "deceived" themselves.

My own supposed freewill turned out to be my worst enemy, soiling the religious bed I sought to sleep in.

It was about this time that Jesus pointed out to me, in His Word, that evil comes from within. It's not a maybe. No freewill can stop that from happening. It's built into our minds and no amount of freewill applications or choices can make it otherwise. This IS our internal reality. We can excuse it. We can cover it up. We can brush it off in any number of ways, but this IS our internal reality:

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

And no amount of freewill applied is going to make one single bit of difference to this internal reality.

Paul made a similar discovery or set of them that I grew to appreciate very much so in Romans 7. And he concluded in Romans 7:21, this law, that evil was present with him.

I learned a LOT more about determinism and predestination when I saw myself, internally, ACCURATELY, from the scriptures. I no longer had to "pretend" that I didn't have evil present within me. I could be honest before God in Christ. Not having to give Him excuses. Not trying to run away from the obvious. Not trying to be someone I was not.

That in itself was very "freeing." Even though the conclusions were personally unpleasant. The very LAST shoes I want to stand in is being a liar before my Maker.

smaller,

A major problem I have with your explanation is that it contradicts the free choice that was given to Adam & Eve in the beginning and continues for all human beings.

God only made good creatures (see Gen 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, 25). God went so far as to declare after the last day of creation, 'it was very good' (Gen 1:31 ESV). In 1 Tim 4:4 (ESV) it is confirmed that 'everything created by God is good'.

However, what did God tell Adam in the garden? 'And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”' (Gen 2:16-17 ESV).

From the very beginning the power of contrary choice was given to Adam and what happened? He and his wife chose to submit to the temptation of the serpent, 'she took of its fruit and ate ... and he ate' (Gen 3:6 ESV). So in a perfect environment, they had the power of free choice, to agree with God or act contrary to God's requirement. The consequences of disobedience set in and the universe has reaped this evil. The origin of evil came in the misuse of freedom. Free choice was not removed after the fall into sin.

What about choice for evil human beings who have evil within them? We know that Lucifer, a fallen angel, could choose to tempt Eve. Choice was not removed once he had fallen.

So does the devil make me do it when I sin? We know that 'the whole world may be held accountable to God' (Rom 3:19 ESV). If they will be held accountable, it can't be because they cannot say 'no' to sin. It is not reasonable/rational to hold someone to be responsible when there was no other way for them to respond.

Of course, we need God's help to be able to do that (see John 15:5; Phil 2:12; 4:13). We find a key in 1 Cor 10:13 (ESV), 'No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it'. The conclusion is that God does not require anything of human beings in which he doesn't provide a 'way of escape'.

The Bible is clear that 'he [God] will render to each one according to his works' (Rom 2:6 ESV). So, there are rewards and punishments, based on our ability to choose to do good works'.

What do unbelievers do with the evidence of God in creation? 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them' (Rom 1:18-19 ESV). Unbelievers choose to 'suppress the truth' of God in creation by their unrighteousness, i.e. unrighteous acts.

Free will or free choice can be defined as the power of contrary choice. Or, no matter what influences human beings from within or without, they have the ability to make a different choice. They could have chosen the opposite of what they did.

All of us have this ability of contrary choice, Christian and non-Christian.

Oz

 

[chessman]

Sounds like it was a mutual agreement in which both parties can take varying degrees of credit, i.e. boast.

The Biblical/Greek definition for the word translated "boasting" is to take credit for doing something that you really didn't do.

Like Al Gore boasting (taking credit) for creating the internet when he did not.

STRONGS NT 213: an empty pretender, a boaster

http://biblehub.com/greek/213.htm

 

[Hospes]

Here you are Mr. Hospes a simple guy not a ball player standing in the batters box and Sandy Koufax is burning a fast ball by ya.. Is it a boast to hear called out in three pitches
That is just dumb ol baseball .. Now you are facing The King of Kings The Lord of ALL and He says come .. you follow that is not a boast.. it is obedience.

But don't I get just a smidge of credit in that I - using my own totally independent will - obeyed when I did not have to?

BTW, I feel dense in that I do not get your baseball analogy. Where did my free will show up in it?

 

[Hospes]

If I believe and trust in Jesus, does God owe me salvation?

Thinking, thinking, thinking....I'll be back.

 

[reba]

LOL on the baseball...
This topic makes me teeter on the fence..

 

[childeye]

smaller,

A major problem I have with your explanation is that it contradicts the free choice that was given to Adam & Eve in the beginning and continues for all human beings.

God only made good creatures (see Gen 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, 25). God went so far as to declare after the last day of creation, 'it was very good' (Gen 1:31 ESV). In 1 Tim 4:4 (ESV) it is confirmed that 'everything created by God is good'.

However, what did God tell Adam in the garden? 'And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”' (Gen 2:16-17 ESV).

From the very beginning the power of contrary choice was given to Adam and what happened? He and his wife chose to submit to the temptation of the serpent, 'she took of its fruit and ate ... and he ate' (Gen 3:6 ESV). So in a perfect environment, they had the power of free choice, to agree with God or act contrary to God's requirement. The consequences of disobedience set in and the universe has reaped this evil. The origin of evil came in the misuse of freedom. Free choice was not removed after the fall into sin.

What about choice for evil human beings who have evil within them? We know that Lucifer, a fallen angel, could choose to tempt Eve. Choice was not removed once he had fallen.

So does the devil make me do it when I sin? We know that 'the whole world may be held accountable to God' (Rom 3:19 ESV). If they will be held accountable, it can't be because they cannot say 'no' to sin. It is not reasonable/rational to hold someone to be responsible when there was no other way for them to respond.

Of course, we need God's help to be able to do that (see John 15:5; Phil 2:12; 4:13). We find a key in 1 Cor 10:13 (ESV), 'No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it'. The conclusion is that God does not require anything of human beings in which he doesn't provide a 'way of escape'.

The Bible is clear that 'he [God] will render to each one according to his works' (Rom 2:6 ESV). So, there are rewards and punishments, based on our ability to choose to do good works'.

What do unbelievers do with the evidence of God in creation? 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them' (Rom 1:18-19 ESV). Unbelievers choose to 'suppress the truth' of God in creation by their unrighteousness, i.e. unrighteous acts.

Free will or free choice can be defined as the power of contrary choice. Or, no matter what influences human beings from within or without, they have the ability to make a different choice. They could have chosen the opposite of what they did.

All of us have this ability of contrary choice, Christian and non-Christian.

Oz

Free choice. Adam had free choice of all the trees in the garden except one. Not only that, but he could turn left or right or sit or stand still as he chose. But what of choosing the lie over the Truth? Adam could not do this because he was innocent and did not comprehend such things as betrayal, distrust, or a lie. The power of contrary choice in opposition to God happened because another player appears that is a cunning liar, who introduces these concepts to the gullible. Mind control and propaganda has always been the power behind the choice/decision to do evil.

 

[smaller]

smaller,

A major problem I have with your explanation is that it contradicts the free choice that was given to Adam & Eve in the beginning and continues for all human beings.

That view is entirely presumptive and provably false from many scriptural applications. Mark 4:15 happened to them both for example, and that shows they were not "alone" in their decision making. So does 1 John 3:8, shows the same thing.

God only made good creatures (see Gen 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, 25). God went so far as to declare after the last day of creation, 'it was very good' (Gen 1:31 ESV). In 1 Tim 4:4 (ESV) it is confirmed that 'everything created by God is good'.

I'd hardly term the tempting deceiver in the garden as good. But with Gods Hand on His Creation good can come from any situation. It is pointless to see creation apart from Gods Own Control of it. Freewill essentially "removes" God from interactions and interference with His own creation. Even though there are countless interactions of God with His creation shown throughout the scriptures. This logically equates to "interference."

However, what did God tell Adam in the garden? 'And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”' (Gen 2:16-17 ESV).

I shudder to think how long it might take to deprogram the abundance of bad sights in most Adam and Eve freewill views. The errors are huge. For example you seem to entirely MISS the fact that the law is for sinners, 1 Tim. 1:9, thinking that Adam was not a sinner prior to sinning. OR that Satan, the devil is also a sinner and the LAW is also for the sinner Satan. Look at Mark 4:15 and RECOGNIZE that Satan is moved to resist and sin in man where Gods Word (including LAW) is sown. Now look at Adam again and you may manage to see a little more than expected.

From the very beginning the power of contrary choice was given to Adam and what happened? He and his wife chose to submit to the temptation of the serpent, 'she took of its fruit and ate ... and he ate' (Gen 3:6 ESV). So in a perfect environment, they had the power of free choice, to agree with God or act contrary to God's requirement. The consequences of disobedience set in and the universe has reaped this evil. The origin of evil came in the misuse of freedom. Free choice was not removed after the fall into sin.

Paul tells us exactly the conditions of Adam's planting. In weakness, corruption, dishonor in a natural body that is bound for the death dust heap. 1 Cor. 15:42-45. Anyone who reads that and comes away thinking that Adam was free and sinless at ANY point isn't paying attention to the scriptures on this subject.

What about choice for evil human beings who have evil within them?

There is no choice for any person to eliminate the evil present within them. IF this was the condition of an Apostle then it's the condition of ALL except Christ. Romans 7:21. John makes the identical claim in 1 John 1:8 & 3:8.

We know that Lucifer, a fallen angel, could choose to tempt Eve. Choice was not removed once he had fallen.

Yeah, well, when you find any scripture that says Satan was once a Holy Angel you let me know. The fact is there is no such presentation in the entire Bible. Secondly Satan is not depicted as having any "choice" in Mark 4:15. It says exactly what Satan does. Not what he might do. The fact that Satan, the god of this world blinds the minds of every unbeliever also shows the OVERLAP of that entity upon the minds and hearts of ALL unbelievers. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2 are the quick references. Check 'em out. If after that you still see 'JUST MAN' what can I say? It's not "JUST MAN" involved with unbelief. Satan is IN THEIR MINDS and HEARTS, blinding them. That's why they are CAPTIVES of SIN. Freewill claims in the face of these facts are not only funny, but hilarious. And to me this speaks of a similar form of imposed blindness upon believers minds, when they can't see the obvious.

So does the devil make me do it when I sin?

Who says Satan isn't doing the entirety of such actions in the flesh? As soon as you concede to TWO PARTIES to this deal the freewill system of understandings falls instantly apart in any case.

Freewillers see only man. That is NOT how scripture presents man. Scripture presents MAN blinded internally by another entity that is not them who is IN their minds and hearts to do so.

 

[OzSpen]

Free choice. Adam had free choice of all the trees in the garden except one.

I don't find this kind of statement anywhere in Genesis 2.

 

[OzSpen]

That view is entirely presumptive and provably false from many scriptural applications. Mark 4:15 happened to them both for example, and that shows they were not "alone" in their decision making. So does 1 John 3:8, shows the same thing.

That's a false accusation. My entire post at #86 refuted your statement here.

I'd hardly term the tempting deceiver in the garden as good. But with Gods Hand on His Creation good can come from any situation. It is pointless to see creation apart from Gods Own Control of it. Freewill essentially "removes" God from interactions and interference with His own creation. Even though there are countless interactions of God with His creation shown throughout the scriptures. This logically equates to "interference."

Here you give a red herring fallacy. At no point in#86 did I say that the tempting deceiver in the garden was 'good'. Yours is a false accusation. You also invent a straw man about my view when you say that it's pointless to see creation apart from God's own control. At no point did I suggest that.

Freewill does not remove God from the interactions. As I explained, God created freewill for Adam and Eve to obey or disobey. They chose to disobey. Freewill is God's creation.

I shudder to think how long it might take to deprogram the abundance of bad sights in most Adam and Eve freewill views. The errors are huge. For example you seem to entirely MISS the fact that the law is for sinners, 1 Tim. 1:9, thinking that Adam was not a sinner prior to sinning. OR that Satan, the devil is also a sinner and the LAW is also for the sinner Satan. Look at Mark 4:15 and RECOGNIZE that Satan is moved to resist and sin in man where Gods Word (including LAW) is sown. Now look at Adam again and you may manage to see a little more than expected.

I miss nothing about the law for sinners. I was dealing with God's revelation in Genesis 1-3. Here you have created another straw man fallacy by inventing a false view of what I communicated.

Paul tells us exactly the conditions of Adam's planting. In weakness, corruption, dishonor in a natural body that is bound for the death dust heap. 1 Cor. 15:42-45. Anyone who reads that and comes away thinking that Adam was free and sinless at ANY point isn't paying attention to the scriptures on this subject.

This does not address the point I was making, so it is another red herring fallacy. When will you learn to address the content of what I write and not spin off at your own tangent?

There is no choice for any person to eliminate the evil present within them. IF this was the condition of an Apostle then it's the condition of ALL except Christ. Romans 7:21. John makes the identical claim in 1 John 1:8 & 3:8.

At no point did I state that there was 'no choice for any person to eliminate the evil present within them'. You are creating another red herring fallacy. Would you please learn what a red herring fallacy means and quit using it against me? See Red Herring, Smoke Screen or Wild Goose Chase.

Yeah, well, when you find any scripture that says Satan was once a Holy Angel you let me know. The fact is there is no such presentation in the entire Bible. Secondly Satan is not depicted as having any "choice" in Mark 4:15. It says exactly what Satan does. Not what he might do. The fact that Satan, the god of this world blinds the minds of every unbeliever also shows the OVERLAP of that entity upon the minds and hearts of ALL unbelievers. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2 are the quick references. Check 'em out. If after that you still see 'JUST MAN' what can I say? It's not "JUST MAN" involved with unbelief. Satan is IN THEIR MINDS and HEARTS, blinding them. That's why they are CAPTIVES of SIN. Freewill claims in the face of these facts are not only funny, but hilarious. And to me this speaks of a similar form of imposed blindness upon believers minds, when they can't see the obvious.

Rev 12:7-9 (ESV) states that Satan was once an angel: 'Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him'.

It seems like you need to read your Bible more closely.

Who says Satan isn't doing the entirety of such actions in the flesh? As soon as you concede to TWO PARTIES to this deal the freewill system of understandings falls instantly apart in any case.

That seems to be your hypothesis.

Freewillers see only man. That is NOT how scripture presents man. Scripture presents MAN blinded internally by another entity that is not them who is IN their minds and hearts to do so.

I refuted that view in #86. My view was based on Scripture and you have ignored what I wrote because of your rejection of free-will.

If you continue to reply to me with a string of logical fallacies, as you have done here, I will not respond to you. We cannot have a logical conversation when you engage in the use of erroneous reasoning of such fallacies.

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

If I believe and trust in Jesus, does God owe me salvation?

I would think not.
There was an allegory tale by Jesus where the men declared how much spiritual work they had done. But Jesus said,"Away from me you doers of iniquity..."

The faith and works aren't enough.
Love because of faith, that is enough. And God will keep his promise. Owe?
God has no debt.

It's one of the toughest lessons to learn.

 

[OzSpen]

I would think not.
There was an allegory tale by Jesus where the men declared how much spiritual work they had done. But Jesus said,"Away from me you doers of iniquity..."

The faith and works aren't enough.
Love because of faith, that is enough. And God will keep his promise. Owe?
God has no debt.

It's one of the toughest lessons to learn.

That's not what Paul & Silas told the Philippian jailer!

'And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household”' (Acts 16:31 ESV).

 

[OzSpen]

If I believe and trust in Jesus, does God owe me salvation?

What did the Philippian jailer say to Paul & Silas after the great earthquake left them and the other prisoners out of prison? What was Paul & Silas's answer to the jailer's request?

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household"' (Acts 16:30-31 ESV).​

Oz

 

[smaller]

That's a false accusation. My entire post at #86 refuted your statement here.

Perhaps you'd be better served to understand the difference between legitimate scriptural critique of positions and "false accusations/red herrings." Having a conversation with you is nearly impossible with anyone who doesn't see it only your way.

 

[OzSpen]

Perhaps you'd be better served to understand the difference between legitimate scriptural critique of positions and "false accusations/red herrings." Having a conversation with you is nearly impossible with anyone who doesn't see it only your way.

You have confirmed what I wrote. When you use logical fallacies, it's impossible to have a rational conversation. When you come to grips with what you do, we'll have a basis for continuation of conversations.

 

[smaller]

I don't find this kind of statement anywhere in Genesis 2.

Genesis 1:29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

[*note-upon the face of all the earth, not just in the Garden of Eden]

Genesis 2:9
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: