Rapture Theory

[Eugene]

Daniel 9
Vs.26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

After 434 years that end in the year AD29 shall Messiah be cut off. Jesus was crucified after he was baptized in AD 29 three and a half years later. Jesus was cut off (killed) by the people of the prince, which means National Israel or other words the Pharisees, Sanhedrin and the high priest that destroy the city and the sanctuary (meaning Christ) and the end thereof shall be with a flood (Gods wrath) that will put an end to abominations by desolation or in other words a ruin to evil deeds. Daniel 9:27 explains the definitions of desolation of abominations or the ruin of evil deeds. There is no actual Desolations of Abominations where the so-called Antichrist will take a literal throne, but the desolation will be when the beast that Satan gives power to tries to take his throne in Jerusalem, (Ref: Daniel 11:36-45). Gods’ word never defines one great Antichrist, but says there are many antichrists. The seven years that some call the seven year tribulation means three and a half years of Jesus teaching before he was crucified and three and a half years of Stephen teaching before he was stoned to death, which took place after Jesus was taken up to heaven.

Vs.27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The 70th seven began with Christ baptism in AD 29 and three years later at the end of the first half of the 70th seven sacrifices and offering ceased because Christ hung on the cross as he was the final sacrifice that fulfilled the law. From the giving of the law in 458BC when Ezra went to establish the law, or to rebuild the Spiritual city right up to the cross were the first 69 sevens. The 70th seven is from the time of the cross until Jesus comes and gathers his bride as they prepare to stand in the Holy place until the overspreading of abominations he will make desolate, or make an end to all that would not repent.

I'm not far from you in the counting, though I have no idea how you came up with 29 AD as the date Jesus was cut off, and the meaning of His being cut off. My timeline is 33 AD on Jesus' entry into Jerusalem riding as ass, and Daniel's seventieth week being seven years of peace having everything in common until Stephen's death.

Your theology sounds a lot like that at the following URL where he attempts “Fixing the Date of Stephen’s Death.” He goes on to say “Fixing Stephen’s death (Acts 7:51-60) to an exact day involves using prophecy, which if true . . “ And I like that with Brother Edward.
http://smoodock45.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/fixing-the-date-of-stephens-death/

My counting using year/day counting, and 360 days per year brings me to slightly different dates, and the cutting off to me is the cross.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks (Of blessings) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (The seventieth week ended with the stoning of Stephen.)

Dear sister, it’s evident we’re not going to agree here so I will respectively withdraw, and I pray our differences doesn't affect our commitment in our individual spiritual walks, but that we can edify one another where we can.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Eugene]

The first thing we need to understand is who the beast and the twentyfour elders are. Then learn of the 144,000 and the army that will return with Jesus when he plants his feet on the Mt of Olives.

The background is found in 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; and 26:12-19. In chapter 24, the Levitical priesthood is divided into 24 divisions, according to the schedule of their service: they were officials of the sanctuary and of the house of God. In Chapter 25, the Levitical priests are further divided into 24 divisions, responsible for the worship of the sanctuary, and in particular the music of that worship. In Chapter 26, the Levitical priests are again divided into 24 gatekeepers for the house of God.

Remember the role of the twenty-four divisions of priests in the book of Chronicles? They were responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship. They were also to stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. As it was with the twenty-four divisions of the priests in the book of Chronicles, so it is with the twenty-four elders in the book of Revelation. They are responsible for worship, in particular for the music in worship; they also stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

The twenty-four elders, then, are elders--elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God--who are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God.

We have identified the twenty-four elders that surround the throne as elders, but what is the significance of those elders around the throne? Why are they there? The answer is that the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4; 5:6 are symbolic of the ruling authority in the church. There is a correspondence between the twenty-four elders above and the office of elder below. This means that the government of the church is patterned after heaven itself. As there are elders in heaven above, so there are elders on earth below.

The seven Spirits are wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, power and fear (respect) of the Lord. The four beasts represent that of the four Gospels being taught in the governing Church here on Earth that is patterned after heaven.

Rev 14:1-5 The 144,000 should not be taken literally. It’s 12 x 12 x 1000. The 12 being the number of completion for God’s people representing the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles and 1000 being a generic number suggesting a great multitude. So 144,000 is a way of saying all of God’s people under the old and new covenant. Virgins are we, the saints of God who have held onto truth. The army that Rev 19:14 speaks of that return with Jesus as he plants his feet on the Mt of Olives to fight the final battle are the angels and we, the saints of God, who were caught up to meet Jesus in the air and return with him, Rev 17:14; Matt 16:27; Jude 1:15, 16; Rev 19:19: Rev 3:4,5; Rev 7:13-15.

Please allow me to understand what you’re saying. Are you in fact saying the 24 elders are in any manner Old Testament saints?

You also made the comment that we cannot literally take the 144,000 as fact. Very possible, just as I do not think the 24 elders and 4 beasts are limited to that number.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not far from you in the counting, though I have no idea how you came up with 29 AD as the date Jesus was cut off, and the meaning of His being cut off. My timeline is 33 AD on Jesus' entry into Jerusalem riding as ass, and Daniel's seventieth week being seven years of peace having everything in common until Stephen's death.

Your theology sounds a lot like that at the following URL where he attempts “Fixing the Date of Stephen’s Death.” He goes on to say “Fixing Stephen’s death (Acts 7:51-60) to an exact day involves using prophecy, which if true . . “ And I like that with Brother Edward.
http://smoodock45.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/fixing-the-date-of-stephens-death/

My counting using year/day counting, and 360 days per year brings me to slightly different dates, and the cutting off to me is the cross.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks (Of blessings) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (The seventieth week ended with the stoning of Stephen.)

Dear sister, it’s evident we’re not going to agree here so I will respectively withdraw, and I pray our differences doesn't affect our commitment in our individual spiritual walks, but that we can edify one another where we can.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Just to explain the 70th week started in 29AD when Jesus was baptized and ran up to the time of the cross when Jesus was cut off after his death. It's gard sometimes in forums to post the whole as it can be lengthy. If it helps in anyway you can go to my website and click on the study I wrote on the Second coming of Christ and it might answer any questions you might have of what I posted. Just click the link at the end of my post where it says Debs website. This is my website where I have several teachings there.

We might not always agree and that's alright as long as we believe in Christ death and resurrection. God bless you brother Eugene BTW my middle name is Eugenia. My Dads middle name was Eugene

 

[for_his_glory]

Please allow me to understand what you’re saying. Are you in fact saying the 24 elders are in any manner Old Testament saints?

You also made the comment that we cannot literally take the 144,000 as fact. Very possible, just as I do not think the 24 elders and 4 beasts are limited to that number.

No, the heavenly elders are not that of OT elders.I was comparing the Earthly elders as in their order to that of the heavenly elders and their order. There is much literal and much that is Spiritual as given by numbers. It's up to us to learn the representation of the numbers as the Holy Spirit reveals understanding.

 

[The Gospels]

When did Christ come a second time and defeat the beast? How come I don't know about this amazing event? How far into the 1000 years are we?

Christ came I guess a thousand years ago right? then after the angel then locks Satan for 1000 years..?? this amazing event is in the bible... and many choose not to accept it... the 1000 years? they are over... Satan is in the middle of his plan now I think..

 

[The Gospels]

When did this happen?

well 1000 years ago right?... , the 1000 years are over..(Angel locking Satan) hint:.."last days" surrounding Israel and Jerusalem with his forces...

 

[The Gospels]

If Christ has already come then why are we still here and why hasn't Satan, beast and false prophet been cast into the lake of fire yet. Can you explain what you mean by Christ has already come a second time?

because it didn't end there... and if you read your bible it doesn't end there, the 1000 years had to be over... with Satan let loose....the false prophet and the beast were thrown into the lake.. not yet Satan, again... AS THE BIBLE STATES.....remember in the bible when it says the second coming... well that was it.. all the history you need is in the bible... there are a lot of demonic inputs as far as history books in the todays schools I think...and judgment day will come.. just not yet.. blessings *** let me know if you need any other help..

 

[Eugene]

No, the heavenly elders are not that of OT elders.I was comparing the Earthly elders as in their order to that of the heavenly elders and their order. There is much literal and much that is Spiritual as given by numbers. It's up to us to learn the representation of the numbers as the Holy Spirit reveals understanding.

for_his_glory, I don’t disagree with their position and authority, but the 24 elders & 4 living ones or beasts are of the church, and thus come out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Rev 5:9. Of the church they also have the closest proximity to the throne; round about and in the midst of it. Rev 4:4 & 4:6.

They both sing, and they both reign as kings and priests over the earth. Rev 5:10. The elders represent those dead that come with Christ, and the four living are them that are alive and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thes 4:16 dictates that order of all saints John will see in heaven.

The beasts or living ones as Ezekiel describes them are in direct service as they hand out, show, and/or direct judgments being handed out. Rev 6:1, 6:3, 6:5, 6:7, and 17:7. Above all they are in Jesus’ presence when He takes His own throne in Rev 4:2. I’ll leave off here and see what this produces.

My thoughts.

 

[n2thelight]

So if I am understanding what you are saying is that everyone here on Earth will go to be with the Lord forever at the end of this 1000 years? I do not see the 1000 years as being a literal 1000 years as our timing is not that of Gods timing. It just doesn't set well as why would Jesus return to catch us up to meet him in the air to just bring us back down for another 1000 years. I find no scripture to support this.

Not quite what Im saying...I'm sure you're familer with the verse "1 day with the Lord is as a 1000 with man",however long that is, is how long it will be.....During this time,there will be two groups of people,those with mortal souls,and those with immortal souls....Although all shall be changed at Christ return,those with mortal souls will stand the chance of dying the 2nd death,thats why they must be taught...

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

These are those with mortal souls,that's why they are called the dead.......

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Now what about the clouds, and the air? The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

Heaven will be here on earth.....

 

[Kathi]

Not quite what Im saying...I'm sure you're familer with the verse "1 day with the Lord is as a 1000 with man",however long that is, is how long it will be.....During this time,there will be two groups of people,those with mortal souls,and those with immortal souls....Although all shall be changed at Christ return,those with mortal souls will stand the chance of dying the 2nd death,thats why they must be taught...

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

These are those with mortal souls,that's why they are called the dead.......

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Now what about the clouds, and the air? The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

Heaven will be here on earth.....

Our bodies will be changed in a "twinkling of an eye".That is very,very fast.Alot faster than we can blink an eye.We will meet Christ in the air.Jesus will not step foot on the earth like He will in the second coming.

 

[JLB]

Our bodies will be changed in a "twinkling of an eye".That is very,very fast.Alot faster than we can blink an eye.We will meet Christ in the air.Jesus will not step foot on the earth like He will in the second coming.

Do you believe there will be two Day of the Lord or one Day of the Lord when the Lord returns to earth.

1 Thessalonians 4 describes the Day of the Lord.



JLB

 

[Kathi]

Do you believe there will be two Day of the Lord or one Day of the Lord when the Lord returns to earth.

1 Thessalonians 4 describes the Day of the Lord.



JLB

I believe that "Day of the Lord" is referred to as the second Coming of Christ when he will set His feet on this Earth.That is different than the rapture.

 

[reba]

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
wouldn't the literal acceptance of this verse say ...we will always be in the air with the Lord?

 

[Kathi]

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
wouldn't the literal acceptance of this verse say ...we will always be in the air with the Lord?

Well,we will always be in heaven with the Lord.The earth we live on now will become the New Jerusalem which I believe will be the new heaven.But there will also be a new heaven created as well.That gets confusing to me.We as the Saints who were taken up in the rapture I think might have access to this new heaven as well.I do not think scripture gives reference to that.

 

[n2thelight]

Our bodies will be changed in a "twinkling of an eye".That is very,very fast.Alot faster than we can blink an eye.We will meet Christ in the air.Jesus will not step foot on the earth like He will in the second coming.

There is only one last trump,which is the 7th which is The Day of the Lord,which is the 2nd coming....Christ returns once,not twice.....

 

[JLB]

I believe that "Day of the Lord" is referred to as the second Coming of Christ when he will set His feet on this Earth.That is different than the rapture.

One of the main components of the the Pre Rapture doctrine is the belief that the Rapture is imminent, meaning it could happen at any moment.

This seems to separate the Rapture from the Second coming, as there will be listed "signs" that Jesus told us to watch for, at the second coming.

The scripture that Pre Trib teachers use for the Rapture to be "imminent" is The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

Do you believe the Day of The Lord will come as a thief in the night?


JLB

 

[n2thelight]

JLB said: ↑
During the 1000 year Day of Rest, we will be here on earth shining like the sun, with our immortal resurrected bodies that will never die.

The wicked and lawless people will have been cast into hell.

1000 years of a sinless , resurrected, immortal body that will never die to enjoy heaven on earth.

A true Sabbath rest.

JLB

That can't be true,as the Great White Throne Judgement dosn't happen until after the 1000 years are up....Those who follow satan after being taught,are those who will go into the lake of fire along with satan,and will die the 2nd death...

 

[reba]

These discussions are very interesting...

 

[n2thelight]

Many think that only the saved will be changed when Christ returns,that simply isn't true,as they must be judged in their spiritual bodies.....The flesh age ends at the 2nd coming....Also there will be no one born during the millennium,as again age of the flesh will be over.......

 

[Kathi]

One of the main components of the the Pre Rapture doctrine is the belief that the Rapture is imminent, meaning it could happen at any moment.

This seems to separate the Rapture from the Second coming, as there will be listed "signs" that Jesus told us to watch for, at the second coming.

The scripture that Pre Trib teachers use for the Rapture to be "imminent" is The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

Do you believe the Day of The Lord will come as a thief in the night?


JLB

Yes,the rapture is imminent.Nothing else needs to happen for Jesus Christ to meet us in the clouds.It will be very swift.And our bodies will change into our perfect resurrected bodies.We will then be judged in the Judgment Seat of Christ/Bema seat judgment for everything we as believers did while we were in these bodies.Of course we are saved so everyone will go to heaven but some will receive a ton of rewards and some will receive no rewards.After this the tribulation will come.But there is alot of debate as to how long after the rapture the tribulation will actually start.
"The Day of the Lord" is the second coming after the tribulation.Jesus will then set His feet on the Earth.Everyone will see Him and everyones knee will bow and proclaim the He is Jesus Christ our Lord.