Bible Study Rapture

[ezra]

Whether you realize it or not you are promoting a possible pretrib or midrib by what you believe, but yet have no scripture to support your view. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 are the events that precede that of Christ return. These things are also spoken by Christ in Matthew 24, prophesied by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel and Daniel in the OT. I can't make you see it as only the Holy Spirit can reveal it to you. All we can do is give the scriptures of what Christ has already taught about His coming for His Bride.

umm i have given scripture much of what is told in Matthew 24 has taken place except the return of Christ. might i also add the Church is no longer mentioned after chapter 3 actually the rapture and the 2nd coming is 2 separate events we return with christ matthew 25:31 once again timeline we dont know and i will say it again i could be wrong you could be wrong.we both could be wrong... so it pays to be ready and at that we will not be wrong . after while i will post what john Hagee believes i have a study Bible by him that is a prophecy edition.. no i do not base every thing by his teaching

 

[ezra]

The way the Church avoids the wrath of God is being caught up together with Christ, in the air, above the earth before He “tramples the winepress of the wrath of God” upon the antichrist and the wicked.

and i agree once again timeline/frame we dont know .this has been a whole point we know the events the exact timeline /frame we dont .

 

[ezra]

Maybe you misunderstood what I said. I said nothing about LIVING EVERYDAY FOR HIM. Those are your words. The Pharisees thought they were living every day for him as well.

I said you should seek the mindset that HE IS ALREADY HERE. Why do Christians claim that they are born again with the Spirit of Christ within them, but then say they await his return? If Christians await his return, then how can they claim that the Spirit of Christ resides in them? For we are the temple of God. If we continue to say we await his return, then who is it that sits in the temple?


When I used the term wrong mindset, I was not saying you are wrong. Just sometimes we don't like to consider things differently, or rather from a different perspective. So when it come choosing a mind set, here is a simple question to consider:

Does the calf of the stall tread corn with the ox?

when i say living for him i mean truly living for him abiding in him.. i am fully aware of the pharisees and Sadducee religion... Religion will send you to hell.. salvation a relationship with Christ will send you to heaven

Why do Christians claim that they are born again with the Spirit of Christ within them, but then say they await his return? If Christians await his return, then how can they claim that the Spirit of Christ resides in them?

his spirit lives in us we are told to WATCH
Revelation 16:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Matthew 25:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Matthew 24:42 King James Version (KJV)
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

we watch by living for him your making a mountain out of a ant hill

 

[JLB]

and i agree once again timeline/frame we dont know .this has been a whole point we know the events the exact timeline /frame we dont .

But Ezra, we most certainly know, that's just it.

We know for absolute certainty that at the coming of the Lord, the resurrection takes place.

Then we who are alive and remain, will be caught up together with them in the air, and will forever be with the Lord.

• the dead in Christ will rise first.
• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


We also know for certainty, that He will destroy the antichrist and the wicked at His coming as well.

• then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2,8


The Lord gave us this information, and we can know that it is true.




JLB

 

[ezrider]

We know for absolute certainty that at the coming of the Lord, the resurrection takes place.

Which resurrection would that be, the one to everlasting life? or the one to everlasting judgement and damnation?

 

[ezrider]

I give no warning to those who are not condemned who are of Christ, but warning to those who have yet to accept Jesus as to what will happen to them during God's great wrath and final judgment.

I judge no one as judgment is of God alone.

Why do I see you two comments as contradictory. You judgement is of God alone, but then by your own statement you appear to sit in judgement over whom you deem still sit under condemnation.

We are not only called to take the Gospel out to the world to teach God's salvation,

I was asked this question of me and my response was ARE WE? Who called you? I understand that Paul and the other Apostles were called out to take the Gosple into all the world, but were you? Was I? If memory serves, the word for Apostle means one sent forth, but in order to be an Apostle one must also be witness to the Resurrection of Christ. Have you been witness to the resurrection?

At some point we must learn to sit at peace under our own vine and fig tree as the Lord has instructed from Zion, even if it takes beating our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks.

 

[Jim Parker]

Which resurrection would that be, the one to everlasting life? or the one to everlasting judgement and damnation?

That's one view. Here's another: there is only one resurrection of the bodies of saints and sinners.

Jhn 5:28-29 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which
all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

The "first resurrection" (Rev 20:6) is the heavenly life of the souls who have died in Christ before His second coming. Those not in Christ who die are in Hades awaiting the (2nd) resurrection of the body at His coming.

 

[ezrider]

That's one view. Here's another: there is only one resurrection of the bodies of saints and sinners.

Could you ex[plain why you felt the need to declare there's one view, here is another? I gave no view, I simply asked the question to which resurrection he was referring too.

Jhn 5:28-29 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which
all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

But I will thank you for listing one on the two scriptures from which I proposed this question. The resurrection of life. Or the resurrection of condemnation?

Daniel 12:1-3
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


Throughout this thread, members have continued to post scriptures pointing to signs of his coming and making their proclamations. But Jesus said no sign shall be given except for the sign of Jonah? What is the sign of Jonah that we should be looking for?

After two days he shall revive us, and on the third day he shall raise us up to live in his sight; Then shall we know if we follow on to know the Lord.

 

[Jim Parker]

Could you ex[plain why you felt the need to declare there's one view, here is another?

It's a forum.
Everybody gets to "declare" one view or another.

But Jesus said no sign shall be given except for the sign of Jonah?

That was given to the Pharisees who demanded a sign. Jesus never gave the pharisees a straight answer except when He said they were hypocrites.

After two days he shall revive us, and on the third day he shall raise us up to live in his sight; Then shall we know if we follow on to know the Lord.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[ezra]

It's a forum.
Everybody gets to "declare" one view or another.

exactly i am by far a prophecy student..what i do know is in the last chapter of Revelations here is some final statements. that everybody should take heed to
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

3 times he said i come quickly < the warning > . he gives the invitation < let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.>

i will say it once again even though i do not believe we will be around when his bowls of wrath is poured out.he will take us out 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: < this is his real return he sets up judgment> once again i could be wrong everyone could be wrong .if were truly ready and believe everyone in this discussion is we can never be wrong as we are Children of the Light ..

 

[ezrider]

After two days he shall revive us, and on the third day he shall raise us up to live in his sight; Then shall we know if we follow on to know the Lord.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but that is one view; here is another. Perhaps you don't know the scriptures as well as you think you do? It shouldn't be hard to find. Oh, and I was talking about the sign of Jonah.

I made a suggestion earlier to consider: Does the calf of the stall tread corn with the ox?
Who shall consider this? What shall they find?

 

[JLB]

Which resurrection would that be, the one to everlasting life? or the one to everlasting judgement and damnation?

The resurrection of the dead in Christ.

• the dead in Christ will rise first.
• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


We also know for certainty, that He will destroy the antichrist and the wicked at His coming as well.

• then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2,8



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

umm i have given scripture much of what is told in Matthew 24 has taken place except the return of Christ. might i also add the Church is no longer mentioned after chapter 3 actually the rapture and the 2nd coming is 2 separate events we return with christ matthew 25:31 once again timeline we dont know and i will say it again i could be wrong you could be wrong.we both could be wrong... so it pays to be ready and at that we will not be wrong . after while i will post what john Hagee believes i have a study Bible by him that is a prophecy edition.. no i do not base every thing by his teaching

I have given a list of scriptures that teaches the Church/body of Christ/the Bride is still here right up to the time that in Matthew 24:29-31 Christ teaches us of His return, yet no one knows the day or hour other than to watch for this sign.

I have no time for John Hagee as he is a rude pious man stuck on his own self righteousness. I went to his church one time when I lived in San Antonio as my sister was a member there before he built his mega church and even though I asked to meet him he refused as he doesn't have time for his own congregation. Not much of a Shepard if you ask me. I've heard his teachings and he's just another Rapture bandwagon line my pocket with your hard earned money self proclaimed prophet of God.

Being caught up to Jesus in the air, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, and His return are only one event not two separate ones just as there is only one resurrection, but two judgments that come on the last day, John 5:28-29; John 6:40. Matthew 24:29-31, Matthew 25:31-33 and Rev 19:11-21 all happen at that same time immediately after the tribulations of those days, (meaning at the end of God's great wrath), shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It certainly is your right to believe what another teaches, but if you are not studying it for yourself you will be mislead as I was all those years ago. I have yet to have anyone give me scripture that says we are out of here before the tribulation begins. Rev 4 has nothing to do with any pretrib rapture as it's only John that is caught up in the Spirit while still physically being on the isle of Patmos while he was a prisoner there. Revelations, which means the unveiling, are visions Christ gave to him to write to the seven churches of all things which will come first before His return.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but that is one view; here is another. Perhaps you don't know the scriptures as well as you think you do?

That IS rude.
And it appears to be intentionally so.

Oh, and I was talking about the sign of Jonah.

I'm aware of that.

I made a suggestion earlier to consider: Does the calf of the stall tread corn with the ox?

What's your point?

 

[for_his_glory]

Why do I see you two comments as contradictory. You judgement is of God alone, but then by your own statement you appear to sit in judgement over whom you deem still sit under condemnation.




I was asked this question of me and my response was ARE WE? Who called you? I understand that Paul and the other Apostles were called out to take the Gosple into all the world, but were you? Was I? If memory serves, the word for Apostle means one sent forth, but in order to be an Apostle one must also be witness to the Resurrection of Christ. Have you been witness to the resurrection?

At some point we must learn to sit at peace under our own vine and fig tree as the Lord has instructed from Zion, even if it takes beating our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks.

I have no judgment over them who refuse faith in Christ, but only teach what happens to them if they refuse to accept Christ before He returns on the last day, John 6:40. All scripture from Genesis to Revelation God says blessed are they who are obedient to His commands or woe to them who walk in disobedience as on the last day the books will be opened and God's final judgment will be made, John 5:28, 29.

I will answer your last question with the below scriptures as I do nothing of myself, but that which I have a desire to do that is called of me by God to do.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

Micah Chapter 4:1-5 is all about the promise of the coming kingdom of our Lord at the timing of the seventh trumpet that will sound. This is prophecy of restoration two fold in that of Christ birth, death and resurrection and His return when He makes an end to all evil abominations in the world. It will come to pass in the last days when the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of the Lord, Joel 3:9-21; Zechariah 3:8-10; Rev 11:15-19.

 

[for_his_glory]

Throughout this thread, members have continued to post scriptures pointing to signs of his coming and making their proclamations. But Jesus said no sign shall be given except for the sign of Jonah? What is the sign of Jonah that we should be looking for?

Matthew 12:40 has nothing to do with the sign Jesus taught us to look for before His return in Matthew 24:29-31. The sign of Jonah Jesus spoke of was compared to Jesus himself laying in His tomb for three days and God raising Him on the third day.

 

[for_his_glory]

exactly i am by far a prophecy student..what i do know is in the last chapter of Revelations here is some final statements. that everybody should take heed to
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

3 times he said i come quickly < the warning > . he gives the invitation < let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.>

i will say it once again even though i do not believe we will be around when his bowls of wrath is poured out.he will take us out 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: < this is his real return he sets up judgment> once again i could be wrong everyone could be wrong .if were truly ready and believe everyone in this discussion is we can never be wrong as we are Children of the Light ..

Vs. 18, 19 are very strong warnings that we need to heed. You say you are not a student of prophecy so how do you discern that of all the many prophecies given from Genesis to Rev that speak about the end of days?

 

[ezra]

Vs. 18, 19 are very strong warnings that we need to heed. You say you are not a student of prophecy so how do you discern that of all the many prophecies given from Genesis to Rev that speak about the end of days?

i study it out how else once again when it comes to the return of Christ my point is be ready... i have the map that tells the way things will be in the last days.. which basically begin when Christ ascended ye men of Galilee why stand here gazing . the instructions tells me to watch and be ready. if i do that i can discern actually this thread for my part is done

 

[ezra]

Matthew 12:40 has nothing to do with the sign Jesus taught us to look for before His return in Matthew 24:29-31. The sign of Jonah Jesus spoke of was compared to Jesus himself laying in His tomb for three days and God raising Him on the third day.

and they missed it and many today are missing it

 

[ezrider]

I have no judgment over them who refuse faith in Christ, but only teach what happens to them if they refuse to accept Christ before He returns on the last day,

Who has commanded you that you should make them afraid?

Micah Chapter 4:1-5 is all about the promise of the coming kingdom of our Lord at the timing of the seventh trumpet that will sound. This is prophecy of restoration two fold in that of Christ birth, death and resurrection and His return when He makes an end to all evil abominations in the world. It will come to pass in the last days when the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of the Lord,

Why do you deny the words that Jesus commanded and the works that he completed? Has not the Mountain of the Lord been established? Jesus does not sit upon His Throne at the right hand of God? Micah 4 came to pass two thousand years ago.


Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass,
that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains,
and it shall be exalted above the hills;
and people shall flow unto it.

Are you saying that Mt Zion has not yet been established, and is not exalted? I think Paul may say otherwise.

Micah 4:2
And many nations shall come, and say,
Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
and to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for the law shall go forth of Zion,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Do not the peoples from many nations seek the ways of the Lord? What do they sit in Churches for? Have you not heard the Law go forth of Zion? For it was there the Lord commanded the blessing to go forth, even life evermore; for the word of the Lord was heard from Jerusalem in the sermon upon the mount.

Micah 4:3
And he shall judge among many people,
and rebuke strong nations afar off;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruninghooks:
nation shall not lift up a sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more.

Did not Jesus leave you with the commandment to beat your swords into plowshares and your spears into pruninghooks? Love one another as I have loved your. Love your enemy. Make peace with your enemy in the way. Turn the other cheek, Forgive one another. I could go on, but I hope the point is clear. Jesus asked you to beat your sword into a plowshare.

Micah 4:4
But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree;
and none shall make them afraid:
for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.

Again, who has commanded you that you should warn them and make them afraid?

Micah 4:5
For all people will walk every one in the name of his god,
and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

Matthew 12:40 has nothing to do with the sign Jesus taught us to look for before His return in Matthew 24:29-31.

Why would it when you look for the signs of judgement and wrath, the sign of Jonah has to do with the resurrection. Which do you watch for? Out of the treasures of the heart, we speak of what we know for ourselves.