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Reasons Why Water Baptism is not for today

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tomlane
  • Start date Start date
Imagican,

Jesus tells us to "Baptise them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you". It is so simple. Why are you making such big deal about it? It is just rediculous the way christians argue over it.

just my two cents.
 
shad said:
Imagican,

Jesus tells us to "Baptise them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you". It is so simple. Why are you making such big deal about it? It is just rediculous the way christians argue over it.

just my two cents.

Shad,

WHO did Jesus TELL to Baptise? I believe that you have been misled into believing that YOU or I have been commanded to DO so.

When Christ made these statements, if you will 'go back' and take His statements in CONTEXT, you will find that these words were offered to a PARTICULAR GROUP of people. A SELECT GROUP of people.

I ask this: How many apostles have you PERSONALLY witnessed 'raise the dead'? How many have you witnessed 'walking on water'? I would ask the same concerning the 'casting out of demons' and 'drinking poison' but these CANNOT be confirmed so we'll let them rest.

The apostles WERE commanded to DO certain things. How many apostles do you reacon exist TODAY, right NOW?

So here we have an EXACT representative of the REASON that I speak out as I do. So many have simply accepted what they have been TOLD the 'words MEAN' rather than coming to a complete understanding of the TRUTH.

Do I have a 'complete' understanding of ALL truth? Of course not. But there are THINGS that I have come to a much DEEPER understanding than the mere surface scratches that are created by the churches meager teachings.

Paul WROTE to a church. And his words ring JUST as TRUE today as they did THEN. He said to them:

I Corinthians:

17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

There is MUCH to be learned in these words.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Imagican said:
WHO did Jesus TELL to Baptise? I believe that you have been misled into believing that YOU or I have been commanded to DO so.

Jesus' word is for everyone who is committed to Him.

When Christ made these statements, if you will 'go back' and take His statements in CONTEXT, you will find that these words were offered to a PARTICULAR GROUP of people. A SELECT GROUP of people.

See above.

I ask this: How many apostles have you PERSONALLY witnessed 'raise the dead'? How many have you witnessed 'walking on water'? I would ask the same concerning the 'casting out of demons' and 'drinking poison' but these CANNOT be confirmed so we'll let them rest.

Jesus' servants are working towards the things unseen. We don't need miracle to have faith. Pharisees and many others demanded miracles and Jesus condemned them for it.
 
Shad,

Either you have chosen to simply argue what I have offered or you have chosen NOT to understand.

NO, ALL that Christ offered was NOT spoken to YOU and I. To believe this is to deceive oneself. ALL was offered for OUR edification, (the truth), but EVERYTHING spoken from the mouth of Christ was NOT directed to EVERYONE to 'partake IN'. If I were YOU, I certainly wouldn't run around picking up DEADLY snakes or 'drinking poison'. And EVEN His APSOTLES found themselves OVERWHELMED by 'unclean spirits' in their feeble attempts to 'cast them out'.

While all that was offered WAS offered for US to learn from. That, by NO MEANS, offers that what Christ commanded of His aposltes is TRUE for US as well. Twelve were chosen for a PURPOSE. That purpose was fulfilled in their office and their TIME.

'I' do NOT require the 'signs' of the apostles in order to accept that what they did is TRUE indeed. You MUST have misunderstood the REASON that I stated what I did. It was directed AT those that believe 'outward signs' such as 'water Baptism' have the POWER that they suggest. I NEED no such signs or DEEDS to be secure in my relationship with God and His Son. And I don't BELIEVE that ANYONE NEEDS such. For God is Spirit and we MUST come TO Him IN Spirit. The flesh is weak and corrupt in ALL it's forms. Therefore those that would CLAIM the ability to 'bring people TO Christ' through 'water Baptism' have simply chosen to alter this REALITY into 'something different'.

I offered you words by PAUL himself stating that he 'did NOT come to Baptize' but to PREACH'. I see you have chosen to IGNORE this and simply contradict that which you were ABLE.

Not ONLY did Paul offer the words that I quoted, but other words were offered that 'water Baptism' had become a STUMBLING BLOCK' to many that he encountered and that he THANKED GOD that he PERSONALLY had Baptised SO FEW.

Now, IF 'water Baptism' was ALL inclusive, could Paul have uttered anything even remotely CLOSE to the words offered on this subject? Not likely.



Blessings,

MEC
 
Imagican,

Suit yourself. Baptism is not as complicated as you are making it up to be.

I am done here. Good night.
 
Firstly: I HAVE been 'Baptized in water'. What I offer I offer out of 'personal revelation'.

Personal revelation must never go against the Word.

For the 'water Baptism' is NOT what 'brought me to Christ'.

It has brought nobody to Christ, because it only happens AFTER we repent. (Repent and be baptized....)


It was MANY years 'later' that I was able to accept Christ into my heart and NOT through any such 'ritual' as 'water Baptism'.

You only got wet, that baptism is not baptism. I too was baptized before salvation and then after salvation I went for my real baptism.
I am NOT going to argue that 'water Baptism' has NO PLACE in the lives of ANYONE. I cannot say that it can or cannot bring about Salvation.

You are right, it does not bring salvation it is the result of salvation
But I will say that I personally believe that it has LITTLE effect compared with 'Baptism in Spirit'.

The one has nothing to do with the other regarding importance. We are not told to choose one above the other

Some would contend that they are the SAME.

I personally have never heard that, but that would be wrong. They are not the same thing.

I KNOW better. And it pains me to see those that are not secure in their understanding being led in this direction. It is a weak and insignificant ritual when compared with the truth.

While one may well 'begin their walk' through such a ritual, I have rarely witnessed that it has much if ANY true POWER as does The Spirit.

Again, you are unfairly comparing. Water baptism does not have spiritual gifts, as do the baptism in the Spirit. Two different baptisms.
Many would contend that it IS The Spirit that is able to inspire one to take part in 'water Baptism'. This may be true. But IS IT TRUE in ALL situations? I have not witnessed it to BE SO.

I really would not know how to discern that at all. We are not told to make this observation.

I have discussed this issue in previous threads, (this is by no means the FIRST), and it seems that no matter how one tries to approach it, some will insist upon defending what they have been taught by men rather than accept the OBVIOUS. Let me explain:

IF 'water Baptism' is effectual, do you NOT believe that it MUST follow certain patterns? What KIND of water is to be used.

Just water ..........deep enough for you to go under.


WHO is to PERFORM this 'ritual'.

Any believer


What CONDITIONS MUST BE present in the heart or being of the individual who is Baptized in water.

Only a confession of faith regarding Jesus and they must have repented.



The list goes on and on.

But this list have answers.
Yet some would profess a beleif that NONE OF THIS MATTERS. That's REDICULOUS. For there MUST be a 'truth' in the method or it is NOT A METHOD.

mmmm, unclear what you are saying here.
So, C, I do NOT approach this subject as a mere 'anarchist' or 'rebel' that just wants to 'deny' ANYTHING. I have simply offered that 'water Baptism' is NOT what it has been 'built up to BE'.
No you have said plenty :) You have old me that in reality you are not baptized yet (You did a ritual of which you had no understanding, at some time before you were saved ) Nobody has been building baptism into anything here, but we are to be obedient.

We are BOUND by our BELIEFS.

We should be bound by the Word.

What a sad thing to believe that 'water Baptism' is ABLE to DO what it may well NOT be ABLE to DO. Such false beliefs are CERTAINLY able to let those that believe in such a way rest in 'false belief'. For it is OBVIOUS to SEE that some believe that this is basically ALL one NEED DO in order to be 'born again'. And this IS deception of the heart.

You are generalizing. But indeed if some believe that baptism is ALL that one need to do, they would be mistaken. It is not ALL but it certainly is part of what we as Christians do.

Mat 3:15 But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now:(speaking of baptism) for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.

The baptism of Jesus surely resulted in one of the most spectacular displays. Immediately heaven opened up and the Holy Spirit came down. This happened the very second that Jesus came up out of the water. What a result caused by a baptism !

Mat 3:16 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;

16-17The moment Jesus came up out of the baptismal waters, the skies opened up and he saw God's Spiritâ€â€it looked like a doveâ€â€descending and landing on him. And along with the Spirit, a voice: "This is my Son, chosen and marked by my love, delight of my life."
 
If I were YOU, I certainly wouldn't run around picking up DEADLY snakes or 'drinking poison'.
But in modern history, Christians that have been forced to do this (Vanja in Russia) did survive, because this promise is true. Don't think you can just drink poison , and don't follow stupid religious practices with snakes, but if you ever get into a situation you have the Word to stand on. This man in Russia was made to stand in the snow in his underwear so he could freez to death, but the snow melted around him and steam came formed all around him God protected him because of his faith
And EVEN His APSOTLES found themselves OVERWHELMED by 'unclean spirits' in their feeble attempts to 'cast them out'.
No they were still disciples then, and not yet baptized in the Holy Spirit. They certainly had no problems with demons after the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.When a true believer speak to a demon they come out. Even a baby Christian can cast out a demon.

While all that was offered WAS offered for US to learn from. That, by NO MEANS, offers that what Christ commanded of His aposltes is TRUE for US as well. Twelve were chosen for a PURPOSE. That purpose was fulfilled in their office and their TIME.

So you learned from this yet that you do not have faith ?



I offered you words by PAUL himself stating that he 'did NOT come to Baptize' but to PREACH'.


Oh, Paul did indeed baptize. The others also baptized, because we know that Jesus told them to do it. Paul did not do this as his main ministry and was glad, because already people were misunderstanding baptism.( lest any man should say that ye were baptized into my name. )

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, save Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15 lest any man should say that ye were baptized into my name.
1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.



Not ONLY did Paul offer the words that I quoted, but other words were offered that 'water Baptism' had become a STUMBLING BLOCK' to many that he encountered and that he THANKED GOD that he PERSONALLY had Baptised SO FEW.
Yep, they were twisting baptism even in Paul's day. Nothing new.

Now, IF 'water Baptism' was ALL inclusive, could Paul have uttered anything even remotely CLOSE to the words offered on this subject? Not likely.
Nobody said it was ALL inclusive.


The great commission to all believers:

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
 
Cornelius,

While I must admit that you seem sincere in your 'beliefs', I would still offer that MOST is not ALL that you offer I could receive in ANY SUNDAY service. I do NOT agree with MOST of what you offered in your last post.

You fail to recognize the difference between apostleship and being a mere follower of Christ. You believe that there are NO special concerns in regards to the METHOD of 'water Baptism' other than 'being a believer', (and boy that leads to an entirely DIFFERNT 'can of worms'). While you Do recognize the 'difference' between 'water Baptism' and 'Baptism in Spirit', you still contend that they are BOTH needed in order to be 'born again'.

Obviously what you and I BELIEVE is different and there is little use in 'hashing out' the SAME words over and over again.

I will offer this in reply though. Your attempts at judgement concerning my 'being of Christ or NOT' does not imply that you are INDEED following the will of the Father or His Son. I have yet to accuse you or anyone else of 'being lost' or any such nonsense. I HAVE offered that IF one were truly on the correct path and well along their walk, there is little that is TRUTH that they shouldn't be ABLE to bare.

Question: What 'faith' or 'denomination' do you follow? If you are not ashamed to admit it or have no deception within your heart, this SHOULD be an easy question to answer. If you choose to avoid or divert the question, then I MUST assume ONE of the above. Either shame or deception.

Blessings,

MEC
 
To everyone ... please

I've tried to draft a diplomatic appeal that the topic be addressed and not the beliefs/opinions of another. It was lengthy and cumbersome. I'm no diplomat.

:shame
 
Imagican said:
Cornelius,

While I must admit that you seem sincere in your 'beliefs', I would still offer that MOST is not ALL that you offer I could receive in ANY SUNDAY service. I do NOT agree with MOST of what you offered in your last post.

You fail to recognize the difference between apostleship and being a mere follower of Christ. You believe that there are NO special concerns in regards to the METHOD of 'water Baptism' other than 'being a believer', (and boy that leads to an entirely DIFFERNT 'can of worms'). While you Do recognize the 'difference' between 'water Baptism' and 'Baptism in Spirit', you still contend that they are BOTH needed in order to be 'born again'.

Obviously what you and I BELIEVE is different and there is little use in 'hashing out' the SAME words over and over again.

I will offer this in reply though. Your attempts at judgement concerning my 'being of Christ or NOT' does not imply that you are INDEED following the will of the Father or His Son. I have yet to accuse you or anyone else of 'being lost' or any such nonsense. I HAVE offered that IF one were truly on the correct path and well along their walk, there is little that is TRUTH that they shouldn't be ABLE to bare.

Question: What 'faith' or 'denomination' do you follow? If you are not ashamed to admit it or have no deception within your heart, this SHOULD be an easy question to answer. If you choose to avoid or divert the question, then I MUST assume ONE of the above. Either shame or deception.

Blessings,

MEC

I am not part of any denomination. I am not a Catholic, neither a Protestant.

I have not claimed anywhere that you are lost. I merely pointed out that by now you should be aware (through what you posted you believe) that you are indeed not believing all that is written. That is just a simple observation.

Rick , if this is transgressing your appeal, then I will gladly have you remove this post.

As far as baptism is concerned, I have said all that there is to say. :)
C
 
Thank you Cornelius for your understanding and spirit of co-operation.
The post may stand in fairness of defense and I hope that's as far as it goes.
Thank you




Line ---> -----------------------------------------------
 
Ephesians 4:4-6
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
KJV
Heb 6:1-3
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
KJV

There is more to this question than any of us know. The rest of the story cannot be written.
Let us receive each other in Jesus Christ in faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

Joe
 
Rick, I hope you will delete this, as it was a wrong click of the button. Thanks.
 
Joe, Ephesians 4:5 emphatically states there is only one baptism not two. And you are right there is more to the question as you stated but we can know God's truth because God is not the author of confusion but of peace and there is peace in knowing God's truth. Remember, God is a God of light and truth. The confusion comes from not rightly dividing God's word.

1 Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1 John 1:6  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

If we back up a little to Hebrews 5:13-14 that gives us the answer to the scriptures you gave in Hebrews 6:1-3

Hebrews 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Hebrews 6:1  ¶Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3  And this will we do, if God permit.

it states everyone that uses the milk of the word and a good example of that is having two baptisms when it states one. That thinking goes against God's word of one baptism, when we see two baptisms, hence being unskilled in the word as it says in verse 13. For that matter anything man devises for doctrine is most always contrary to God's word we are to avoid them.

Romans 16:17  ¶Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18  For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

When we walk in the light as He is in the light by rightly dividing his word {2 Timothy 2:15 1 Corinthians 2:13} we can discern both good and evil just verse 14 says.

Hebrews 6:1 it says: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;

Water baptism is based on the principles of the doctrine of Christ. To understand this we must know who is being spoken to and that is the Jewish Hebrews who had been under the doctrine of Christ which would have been the law and its ordinances. One of those ordinances was water baptism a Jewish ceremonial baptism for Jews who believed their promised Messiah was coming they prepared for it by being water baptized because of their repentance.

Matthew 3:1  ¶In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2  And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


Matthew 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John's physical water baptism was for repentance only, and never was connected to salvation but it was for those Jews who were repentant of their sins and allowed John to baptize them as a public show of belief of their Messiah soon coming. And as John correctly stated Christ baptizes with the Holy Ghost and fire.

That is why Paul correctly stated in Ephs. 4:5 there is only ONE baptism for a believer and that baptism is spiritual. The word baptism means to immerse or put into and when a believer is baptized by the holy spirit by faith only, he is immersed in into Christ and the one true church that is his body and all believers are living stones that make up this church. 2 Peter 2:5.

God himself adds the members and you can't join it like you a sectarian church this is in competition with the one Christ's is building. Acts 2:47

In this present dispensation that we are in which is the time of the Gentiles {Romans 11:25} the physical acts of worship of Israel does not mix with the worship we have with God today for both Jew and Gentile is now a new creation in Christ {Ephs 2:15, Galatians 3:28, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15} in Christ that worship in spirit only.

Philippians 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. {You have to use your flesh for water baptism.}

I don't know how it can be any plainer than that. I don't understand why people want to make water baptism a Jewish ordinance a part of their religion when God wants us to be concerned with His Holy Spirit baptism. Even John wanted Christ's baptism when he asked Christ what do you want my baptism for, when I need yours? {but Satan loves it when he gets our focus off of Christ's free spiritual baptism and our eyes and thoughts on a baptism that doesn nothing more then get us wet}

Matthew 3:13  ¶Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14  But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15  And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Christ was water baptized to fulfill all righteousness, His last act of keeping the law. Otherwise if Christ hadn't keep the law He couldn't have healed on the Sabbath or he would have broken the law Himself. But Christ kept the law for us because we can't keep it perfectly. But our faith in Christ and his dying for our sins gives us Christ's perfect righteousness in the new man or new creation that we become when we are born again spiritually. So that is why it says in Hebrews 6:1, Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;

I hope that makes some sense to someone.

tomlane
 
Tom,

Awesome!!!

What more needs be said?

Amen!

Blessings, my brother,

MEC
 
Imagican, thank you so much for the complement, that means very much to me. Thank you again and may the Lord get the glory for it.

Tomlane
 
Tomlane said:
Joe, Ephesians 4:5 emphatically states there is only one baptism not two.

Tom, that doesn't mean there was only one baptism ever done and all water baptisms from all time are exactly the same...

It means when Ephesians was written, there was only ONE ACCEPTABLE CHRISTIAN BAPTISM. By water and the Spirit - one baptism that visibly portrayed what the Spirit did in the supernatural world. THAT is why we use water, rather than motor oil to baptize.

Obviously, your defense cannot stand, because throughout time, there were many types of baptisms, even during the days following the coming of the Spirit. There was the baptism of John, there was baptisms in only the name of Jesus, and there were baptisms done in the name of the Trinity. In addition, other religions practiced ritual washings, which were not the same as even John's water-only baptism.

Tomlane said:
And you are right there is more to the question as you stated but we can know God's truth because God is not the author of confusion but of peace and there is peace in knowing God's truth. Remember, God is a God of light and truth. The confusion comes from not rightly dividing God's word.

No one would deny that... The problem is that because you have a thought, you automatically presume it is God's Spirit working within you and that you have all understanding. Paul writes on a number of occasions that all Christians are NOT "all-knowing", as some still dine on milk, rather than meat...

This is very clear in the letter to the Hebrews, for example.


Tomlane said:
If we back up a little to Hebrews 5:13-14 that gives us the answer to the scriptures you gave in Hebrews 6:1-3

Hebrews 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Hebrews 6:1  ¶Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3  And this will we do, if God permit.

it states everyone that uses the milk of the word and a good example of that is having two baptisms when it states one.

There was only one acceptable Christian baptism. That is why, when the Apostles discovered that a convert had only received the baptism of John, they were immediately baptized again in water and the Spirit, Christian baptism. It is not because the water was missing, but the Spirit. The same thing when they found that someone was baptized only in the name of Jesus. They were immediately baptized the proper way.

Tomlane said:
That thinking goes against God's word of one baptism, when we see two baptisms, hence being unskilled in the word as it says in verse 13. For that matter anything man devises for doctrine is most always contrary to God's word we are to avoid them.

Tom, this rhetoric can backfire on you, because you are indeed a man and have tried to push a particular doctrine, regardless of your idea that "doctrine" is a dirty word. The Scriptures uses "doctrine" in a positive way.

Tomlane said:
Romans 16:17  ¶Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18  For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Again, this can be easily applied to yourself. Bringing up such verses do not show that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Don't you see that? I can use the exact same verses back at you and we would be at an impasse because this proves nothing. ONE of us must be wrong when we contradict each other, and merely SAYING such things doesn't prove anything.

That is why people find such tactics as desperate.

Tomlane said:
Hebrews 6:1 it says: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;

In other words, let us move to more sublime doctrines and teachings. It doesn't mean we put the others, such as Christ's resurrection, aside. It means we take on more detailed and indepth understandings of God's Word. EVERY WORD is meant to allow us to advance in spirituality, but it is not immediately apparent to us in what ways.

Tomlane said:
Water baptism is based on the principles of the doctrine of Christ. To understand this we must know who is being spoken to and that is the Jewish Hebrews

Water baptism is ALSO spoken to the Gentile Christians, such as in 1 Peter, Mark, Acts, Colossians, Romans, Galatians and the Pastorals. Water baptism INCLUDES the Spirit and is a basic doctrine of our faith, since it is HOW we begin to participate in the life of Christ.

Know ye not that all of us that are baptized into Jesus the Christ are baptized into his death? For we are buried with him by baptism into death, that just as the Christ was raised up from the dead to the glory of the Father, likewise we also walk in newness of life Romans 6:3-4

Tomlane said:
who had been under the doctrine of Christ which would have been the law and its ordinances. One of those ordinances was water baptism a Jewish ceremonial baptism for Jews who believed their promised Messiah was coming they prepared for it by being water baptized because of their repentance.

Water baptism is not part of the Law. It is not an ordinance of the Torah. Can you provide an OT verse that has Moses baptizing anyone or commanding that people be baptized?


Tomlane said:
John's physical water baptism was for repentance only, and never was connected to salvation but it was for those Jews who were repentant of their sins and allowed John to baptize them as a public show of belief of their Messiah soon coming. And as John correctly stated Christ baptizes with the Holy Ghost and fire.

Repentence IS salvation! Being freed from sin is the definition of salvation.


Tomlane said:
That is why Paul correctly stated in Ephs. 4:5 there is only ONE baptism for a believer and that baptism is spiritual.

And by water. Two elements of the same event.

Tomlane said:
The word baptism means to immerse or put into and when a believer is baptized by the holy spirit by faith only, he is immersed in into Christ and the one true church that is his body and all believers are living stones that make up this church. 2 Peter 2:5.

The immersion is done in water to show what happens in the spiritual realm.

Tomlane said:
In this present dispensation that we are in which is the time of the Gentiles {Romans 11:25} the physical acts of worship of Israel does not mix with the worship we have with God today for both Jew and Gentile is now a new creation in Christ ]



Christ destroyed the dividing wall that separates the two.

Tomlane said:
{Ephs 2:15, Galatians 3:28, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15} in Christ that worship in spirit only.

Where does the bible say that we worship in spirit ONLY??? Stop adding to God's Word so that you can try to score some debate points.

Tomlane said:
Philippians 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. {You have to use your flesh for water baptism.}

And flesh died on the cross, which saves us spiritually. If flesh is of no use, then are you saying Christ's death was of no use???

we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock and unto the Gentiles foolishness 1 Cor 1:23

Crucified in the flesh.

Tomlane said:
I don't know how it can be any plainer than that. I don't understand why people want to make water baptism a Jewish ordinance a part of their religion when God wants us to be concerned with His Holy Spirit baptism.
[/quote][/quote]

Christian Baptism is not a Jewish ordinance. It is a command by Christ given to the Apostles. I don't know how it can be any plainer than that. Refusal to be baptized as Christ commanded is rejecting Christ, simple as that.

Regards
 
Imagican said:
Tom,

Awesome!!!

What more needs be said?
What's more needs to be said??? I posted several passages showing that there is zero reason to believe that water baptism isn't for Christians and I received zero responses. There is still much more to be said.
 
Hi Francis, how are you doing sir, I see you have been a very busy man. Wow so many things to reply to. Its a good thing I'm retired {well I thought I was until I read your endless replies. lol.} I'll do my best to address them all tomorrow. I'll do my best to do you justice, I just hope I don't wear out my keyboard. lol.

Tomlane
 
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