Reasons Why Water Baptism is not for today

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Cornelius:
"If you do not realize that
1) Water = Word

Then you have no idea about baptism anyway. Then you just got wet , like having a bath.

Baptism is the outward statement that we are going to be "washed"by the Word. Our old man (self) gets to be killed by the Word and gets buried under it. But we also rise again into our new life (Christ) So just as we "go under" the water, so our old man gets to "go under" the Word and repent."

GE:
"Water = Word" Correct. Therefore: 'Water' = "the Water of Life", Jesus Christ. "Baptise them in the NAME" (not, 'in water'), and that NAME, is: God: The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Then in John, Jesus says, he who is not born of this - not ordinary - 'Water'- the Son; and 'Fire' - the Holy Spirit, cannot enter into or see the Kingdom of God and 'heaven'.

Now how happened that?
Paul in Romans 5-6 and Colossians 2-3 makes it clear:- In Christ. We are - not in ourselves - but "in Him", "co-crucified" and we, "in Him", co-died with Him and in Him; and we, "in Him" and through Him, are "co-raised" and co-brought back from the dead. NOTHING of what happens "in Christ", is what happens 'with us'; it happened once for all, "for us". That is the only baptism whereby a man is saved; and by being immersed in Christ so absolutely spiritually, is what it is to be baptised "with Fire" - the 'Fire' or power of the regenrating Spirit of God.

Therefor, there is no such thing as "that we are going to be "washed" by the Word". We as saved children of God had had received that regenerating washing in Christ, by Christ, for us - He replaced us; He not only represented us, when we in Him were crucified and did die and were resurrected from the dead again, " in Him". The key-Word:- "IN HIM".

 

[Cornelius]

Therefor, there is no such thing as "that we are going to be "washed" by the Word". We as saved children of God had had received that regenerating washing in Christ, by Christ,

I do not understand, because you are in one sentence saying: No such thing as washed by the Word, and then you say have received the "washing in Christ" (Who is also the Word according to John )
So you are saying there is no such thing as washed by they Word, but that we have received the regenerating washing of the Word.

?

..................

Both in Greek and Hebrew, the word "Name" means: Nature, character and authority. We are baptized into the nature, character and authority of Christ

 

[Cornelius]

Joh 15:3 Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you.

 

[Cornelius]

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it;
Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word,

We change as we submit (repent) to the Word. In that sense, it is daily putting to death the old man.It "washes" us .

In the beginning of my Christian walk, I still did some things that were wrong, but they got washed off me, as I started to submit to the Word of God.

What you are saying about being crucified and dead with Christ is 100% true, but it is only true by faith and not yet by manifestation. We take this truth in faith to be so, (that we are indeed dead) and then we walk it out, daily, by submitting to the Word. In that sense we are washed.

Your view of the baptism is correct, but there is more that we can see in it. The truth has a view layers to it, all adding to the total understanding.

C

 

[Tomlane]

Cornelius,

People can run around, get baptized in water, or "despise" it as some on this forum .......

but

If you do not realize that
1) Water = Word

Then you have no idea about baptism anyway. Then you just got wet , like having a bath.

Baptism is the outward statement that we are going to be "washed"by the Word. Our old man (self) gets to be killed by the Word and gets buried under it. But we also rise again into our new life (Christ) So just as we "go under" the water, so our old man gets to "go under" the Word and repent.

The Word (water) is also a Sword, and that too KILLS the old nature.

People who say its not for today, have no understanding of what it means. They are only talking about a ritual, but that does not make any sense to them. They truly do not understand the meaning of it.

Baptism , without the submission to the Word, is worthless. Also where in scripture do you find where it says "Baptism is the outward statement that we are going to be "washed"by the Word" so how about chapter and verse. And were in the word do you find "But we also rise again into our new life (Christ) So just as we "go under" the water, so our old man gets to "go under" the Word and repent."

Its a bath.

Where in the scriptures do you find all the above in scriptures or is that what you believe God word says? Since I have never read that in there about water being a sword that kills the old nature and what kind of submission are you running on about since I have never read that in the bible either.
I'll be waiting with baited breath. {That is how spell bated in coastal Maine}

TomLane

 

[Imagican]

Stove,

If we take EVERYTHING that Paul offered as a 'whole', we are ABLE to SEE that we are NO LONGER bound by 'works' or the 'law'. No matter HOW HARD we may TRY, there is NO WAY that we are able to DO what pleases God EXCEPT through The Holy Spirits guidance. And it is NOT offered through OUR will but God's through His Son.

While the 'acts' have been forced upon those under the churches control for HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of years, is it ANY surprise that it is practically inherent belief today? For at one time, it was NECESSARY for mere SURVIVAL under a church that DEMANDED that it be so.

God is ABOVE all of this. He is able to SEE into our very hearts.

If 'water Baptism' was ABLE to DO what many contend that it IS, then where is the Spirit manifest IN 'water Baptism'. For I have seen NOTHING to even INDICATE that it is so.

I have witnessed MORE than MOST that have professed 'water Baptism' living NO DIFFERENT than the 'rest of the world'. Still ignoring the needs of their brothers and sisters. Still worshiping whatever brings them 'pleasure'. Loving money, toys, prestige, power, sex, drugs,,,,,,,,,,,The list goes on and on.

So, please forgive me if I find the teaching that 'water' is able to 'cleanse the soul' a bit humurous. But I have NOT witnessed this to be so.

Couple this with the writtings of Paul and it becomes readily apparent that we are BOUND to no such ritual. What we ARE bound to is faith in God and His Son. The Word is much more potent and true and ANY mere words.

Another minor issue. IF 'water Baptism' was AS important as the churches teach, why is it that Christ NEVER Baptised a single soul in water? That in itself seems to point to the significance of 'water Baptism, (or lack thereof).

Is it an 'outward sign' or 'commitment' to following Christ? Perhaps it IS able to be so. But I surely don't see it being the ONLY means by which we are saved. If ANYTHING, what happens to one who is Baptized into following or worshiping something FALSE or 'other than'; God and His Son?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Cornelius]

Cornelius,

People can run around, get baptized in water, or "despise" it as some on this forum .......

but

If you do not realize that
1) Water = Word

Then you have no idea about baptism anyway. Then you just got wet , like having a bath.

Baptism is the outward statement that we are going to be "washed"by the Word. Our old man (self) gets to be killed by the Word and gets buried under it. But we also rise again into our new life (Christ) So just as we "go under" the water, so our old man gets to "go under" the Word and repent.

The Word (water) is also a Sword, and that too KILLS the old nature.

People who say its not for today, have no understanding of what it means. They are only talking about a ritual, but that does not make any sense to them. They truly do not understand the meaning of it.

Baptism , without the submission to the Word, is worthless. Also where in scripture do you find where it says "Baptism is the outward statement that we are going to be "washed"by the Word" so how about chapter and verse. And were in the word do you find "But we also rise again into our new life (Christ) So just as we "go under" the water, so our old man gets to "go under" the Word and repent."

Its a bath.

Where in the scriptures do you find all the above in scriptures or is that what you believe God word says? Since I have never read that in there about water being a sword that kills the old nature and what kind of submission are you running on about since I have never read that in the bible either.
I'll be waiting with baited breath. {That is how spell bated in coastal Maine}

TomLane

First, I don't think I said that water is a sword?

But the Word of God is like water and it is also called a sword.


The Word of God is also "water" in types and shadows.

Eph 5:26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word,

Joh 4:14 but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. (Jesus is the living water, and Jesus is also the Word of God )

Joh 4:14 but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.

But the Word is also called a Sword.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Water (Word) washed the church (as we are told in Eph 5:26)

But we are told to:Rom 8:13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

How do you put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit? Through the Sword of the Spirit. The Word.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We as Christians only change when we repent.(change our minds)
Change our minds to match what?
To match the Word of God.

We give up our own ideas (we die to them) and we agree with God, with His Word. In that way we get washed by the Word and in the same way, we kill the deeds of the flesh, by using the Sword of the Word.

C

 

[Cornelius]

Parden me Stove, I know this is addressed to you, but may I too add something please:

I have witnessed MORE than MOST that have professed 'water Baptism' living NO DIFFERENT than the 'rest of the world'. Still ignoring the needs of their brothers and sisters. Still worshiping whatever brings them 'pleasure'. Loving money, toys, prestige, power, sex, drugs,,,,,,,,,,,The list goes on and on.

So, please forgive me if I find the teaching that 'water' is able to 'cleanse the soul' a bit humurous. But I have NOT witnessed this to be so.

That is because the act of baptism does not do anything if you do not combine it with faith. Without faith you cannot please God (even if you get baptized every day) True baptism is a start. But then its got be walked out. Very few walk a walk that reflects baptism. Like I said: They only got wet.

Baptism, means a laying down of the old nature, and getting baptized into the Name (Greek: Nature, character and authority ) of God. But that said, that is then only BY FAITH. If we do not follow up the act with a real walk.........again, you only got wet.

So we cannot judge baptism by looking at those who fail to walk it, and then call baptism "not for us".

If we take EVERYTHING that Paul offered as a 'whole', we are ABLE to SEE that we are NO LONGER bound by 'works' or the 'law'. No matter HOW HARD we may TRY, there is NO WAY that we are able to DO what pleases God EXCEPT through The Holy Spirits guidance. And it is NOT offered through OUR will but God's through His Son.

Baptism has never been part of the Law, nor is it a "work of the Law" . There is also no "hard trying" anything, when we get baptized. We please God only through faith and obedience.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.
The Holy Spirit's guidance is never contrary to the Word. The Word says: Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: (That is what the Holy Spirit is also guiding these days)

 

[Imagican]

Cornelius,

You offer that we 'please God' through faith and obedience. I agree. But ANYTHING PYSICAL that we DO is most definately a 'work'. For 'works' ARE; what we DO.

Question:

One man has NEVER been 'Baptized in water', another has been.

The man that hasn't helps those that need it. He rarely if EVER thinks BADLY about those whom he comes in contact with. He reads the Word and He offers thanks to God continuously throughout each of his days and constantly begs God to forgive him. Knowing that he is UNWORTHY of life and deserving of DEATH.

The other guy. He goes to church EVERY time the doors are opened. He puts 10percent of his earnings in the plate each week. Volunteers his time to the church. He KNOWS that he's doing EVERYTHING he CAN to PLEASE God and thanks God each day for his blessings.

Now, which of these do you HONESTLY believe pleases God?

The question that truly begs an answer: Did 'water Baptism' make ANY difference in EITHER life?

The next question: Do you believe that one MUST be Baptized in water to develope a personal relationship with God?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Cornelius]

First, the Bible talks about two kinds of "works"
1)Works of the flesh
2) Works of God.
The one we must not do, the other we must do.


1)To look after the poor to gain righteousness is wrong.
2)To look after the poor because you have been given a righteousness that is not your own, is good

The Bible is full of things that we must DO. Things that involve an action. "Turn the other cheek" "Take up your cross" "Love one another" "Forgive one another" "If a brother is angry with you, GO to him" Christianity is not being in apathy because we are not to do "works". There are plenty of works of the right kind that we indeed must do. Paul said for instance that he buffeted his flesh. That's a big job ! Lots of work.

So do not fall into that trap about works.Think of it this way:

There are two Christians with apples and two hungry people
1) Christian1 gives the apple to gain points of righteousness with God (bad works )
2) Christian2 gives the apple BECAUSE he is righteous already, through the blood of Jesus (Good work, the right kind )

Jesus got baptized because:Mat 3:14 But John would have hindered him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.

So even if you do not totally understand it, think of it this way : Jesus did, so then must I.

Believe me, I was baptized as a child,(wrong baptism) and it took me a long time to be convinced to be baptized as an adult, AFTER I came to the Lord. Satan tries his best to keep us all away from it, because he knows the spiritual significance of it.
Can you have a relationship with God without it?
Sure you can
Will it be what it is suppose to be
No , you will always lack something.

Its like a "door". You can see baptism in the Old Testament, when Israel went through the Red Sea.That is the type for baptism we are told. Look at what they left behind: The Egyptians.

When you get baptized, you will find that God will enable you to proceed through your own wilderness, where He will provide for you too, until you can come to the promise land.You will also find that many sins (Egyptians) that has been with you for a long time, you can now be overcome.

I hope this helps

C

 

[Imagican]

First, the Bible talks about two kinds of "works"
1)Works of the flesh
2) Works of God.
The one we must not do, the other we must do.


1)To look after the poor to gain righteousness is wrong.
2)To look after the poor because you have been given a righteousness that is not your own, is good

The Bible is full of things that we must DO. Things that involve an action. "Turn the other cheek" "Take up your cross" "Love one another" "Forgive one another" "If a brother is angry with you, GO to him" Christianity is not being in apathy because we are not to do "works". There are plenty of works of the right kind that we indeed must do. Paul said for instance that he buffeted his flesh. That's a big job ! Lots of work.

While 'words' SOUND good, the ANSWER lies NOT FAR from your SECOND statement.

We are ONLY able to DO as the flesh DOES. But The Spirit IS able to guide those that receieved Christ into their hearts. Love and forgiveness? These are NOT things we DO. These are things that are accomplished 'in the heart' of those that have come to the truth.

Do you honestly think that God has to DO to forgive? Or is it SIMPLY His NATURE?

So do not fall into that trap about works.Think of it this way:

There are two Christians with apples and two hungry people
1) Christian1 gives the apple to gain points of righteousness with God (bad works )
2) Christian2 gives the apple BECAUSE he is righteous already, through the blood of Jesus (Good work, the right kind )

Cornillius, my friend, I am well of aware that it is NOT what we DO, but WHY we do it that is either righteous or not. But 'works' ARE works and that IS different than simply following the 'law'.

Jesus got baptized because:Mat 3:14 But John would have hindered him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.

So even if you do not totally understand it, think of it this way : Jesus did, so then must I.

Wow, I hope that you don't TRULY believe what you have offered here? For as stated previous; words SOUND good.............

If what you have offered then the apostles would NEVER have been saved NOR forgiven. For even Peter, when confronted by the 'world' was unable to withstand temptation. He feared for his life, and even AFTER stating his 'BOLD STATEMENTS', STILL denied Christ, not once, but THREE TIMES in one morning.

So, here we have again, one that has been TAUGHT that he MUST live UP TO certain standards in order to PLEASE God.

Believe me, I was baptized as a child,(wrong baptism) and it took me a long time to be convinced to be baptized as an adult, AFTER I came to the Lord. Satan tries his best to keep us all away from it, because he knows the spiritual significance of it.
Can you have a relationship with God without it?
Sure you can
Will it be what it is suppose to be
No , you will always lack something.

Its like a "door". You can see baptism in the Old Testament, when Israel went through the Red Sea.That is the type for baptism we are told. Look at what they left behind: The Egyptians.

When you get baptized, you will find that God will enable you to proceed through your own wilderness, where He will provide for you too, until you can come to the promise land.You will also find that many sins (Egyptians) that has been with you for a long time, you can now be overcome.

I hope this helps

It certainly helps me see what you say that you believe.

Now, let me offer the answer to the question that I posed previous:

There is little or NO difference between man one and man two. For NEITHER are able through ANYTHING that they DO to 'please God', (I know, trick question). ONLY through Christ LIVING IN US are we able to be seen by God and accepted. For it is not US that God sees but HIS SON.

We can debate HOW Christ comes into one's heart from now until eternity comes. I'm only debating ONE instance that many seem content in offering even though they don't understand how far from the truth they really are. 'Water Baptism'.

You have OPENLY admitted that when you were Baptized in water is was to NO effect the 'first time'. Now, HOW can that BE? It either IS able to 'wash away sins' or it is NOT.

I contend that it was NOT your 'second Baptism in water' that brought you to Christ or offered Salvation. It was the 'condition of your heart' that made the difference. NOT in your 'water Baptism', but in YOUR WALK with Christ and His Father.

Think what you will folks. God is NOT bound by some silly ritual or pagentry. He IS God and He IS able to DO as He wills. SHOULD we BE Baptized in water? I'm NOT going to answer that one. MUST we BE Baptized in water? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Blessings,

MEC

C

 

[Cornelius]

First, the Bible talks about two kinds of "works"
1)Works of the flesh
2) Works of God.
The one we must not do, the other we must do.


1)To look after the poor to gain righteousness is wrong.
2)To look after the poor because you have been given a righteousness that is not your own, is good

The Bible is full of things that we must DO. Things that involve an action. "Turn the other cheek" "Take up your cross" "Love one another" "Forgive one another" "If a brother is angry with you, GO to him" Christianity is not being in apathy because we are not to do "works". There are plenty of works of the right kind that we indeed must do. Paul said for instance that he buffeted his flesh. That's a big job ! Lots of work.

While 'words' SOUND good, the ANSWER lies NOT FAR from your SECOND statement.

We are ONLY able to DO as the flesh DOES. But The Spirit IS able to guide those that receieved Christ into their hearts. Love and forgiveness? These are NOT things we DO. These are things that are accomplished 'in the heart' of those that have come to the truth.

Do you honestly think that God has to DO to forgive? Or is it SIMPLY His NATURE?

So do not fall into that trap about works.Think of it this way:

There are two Christians with apples and two hungry people
1) Christian1 gives the apple to gain points of righteousness with God (bad works )
2) Christian2 gives the apple BECAUSE he is righteous already, through the blood of Jesus (Good work, the right kind )

Cornillius, my friend, I am well of aware that it is NOT what we DO, but WHY we do it that is either righteous or not. But 'works' ARE works and that IS different than simply following the 'law'.

Jesus got baptized because:Mat 3:14 But John would have hindered him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.

So even if you do not totally understand it, think of it this way : Jesus did, so then must I.

Wow, I hope that you don't TRULY believe what you have offered here? For as stated previous; words SOUND good.............

If what you have offered then the apostles would NEVER have been saved NOR forgiven. For even Peter, when confronted by the 'world' was unable to withstand temptation. He feared for his life, and even AFTER stating his 'BOLD STATEMENTS', STILL denied Christ, not once, but THREE TIMES in one morning.

So, here we have again, one that has been TAUGHT that he MUST live UP TO certain standards in order to PLEASE God.

Believe me, I was baptized as a child,(wrong baptism) and it took me a long time to be convinced to be baptized as an adult, AFTER I came to the Lord. Satan tries his best to keep us all away from it, because he knows the spiritual significance of it.
Can you have a relationship with God without it?
Sure you can
Will it be what it is suppose to be
No , you will always lack something.

Its like a "door". You can see baptism in the Old Testament, when Israel went through the Red Sea.That is the type for baptism we are told. Look at what they left behind: The Egyptians.

When you get baptized, you will find that God will enable you to proceed through your own wilderness, where He will provide for you too, until you can come to the promise land.You will also find that many sins (Egyptians) that has been with you for a long time, you can now be overcome.

I hope this helps

It certainly helps me see what you say that you believe.

Now, let me offer the answer to the question that I posed previous:

There is little or NO difference between man one and man two. For NEITHER are able through ANYTHING that they DO to 'please God', (I know, trick question). ONLY through Christ LIVING IN US are we able to be seen by God and accepted. For it is not US that God sees but HIS SON.

We can debate HOW Christ comes into one's heart from now until eternity comes. I'm only debating ONE instance that many seem content in offering even though they don't understand how far from the truth they really are. 'Water Baptism'.

You have OPENLY admitted that when you were Baptized in water is was to NO effect the 'first time'. Now, HOW can that BE? It either IS able to 'wash away sins' or it is NOT.

I contend that it was NOT your 'second Baptism in water' that brought you to Christ or offered Salvation. It was the 'condition of your heart' that made the difference. NOT in your 'water Baptism', but in YOUR WALK with Christ and His Father.

Think what you will folks. God is NOT bound by some silly ritual or pagentry. He IS God and He IS able to DO as He wills. SHOULD we BE Baptized in water? I'm NOT going to answer that one. MUST we BE Baptized in water? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Blessings,

MEC

C

I must say that I find your posts confusing and its difficult to follow what you are really saying. Maybe we should not be talking, we are not to be contentious and I think that if we continue, this might very well go there.

Be blessed
Cornelius

 

[Imagican]

Ok Cornillius,

Let me put it simply:

While the churches teach that Baptism is 'all important' to obtainment of Salvation, I contend that they are 'wrong'. Like many of their 'traditions', these were created by those that wished for their followers to believe that they MUST follow their lead or be damned.

Water Baptism may well be a 'means' of confessing one's beliefs. But it may also be nothing more than a 'ritual' of none effect.

What matters more than either is Baptism of Spirit which has little if ANYTHING to do with 'literal water'. Tell this to the traditionalists though and they 'pitch a fit'.

God KNOWS what's in YOUR heart. No amount of 'water' is able to alter this in the LEAST. Either one accepts Christ INTO their heart and IS Baptized in Spirit, or they have NOT reached this point yet.

I have noticed that there ARE those that KNOW this and then there are those that DON'T. I cannot offer advice on HOW to 'get there' other than READ, PRAY, and humble oneself before God through repentance. Other than that I can offer little more.

But I can offer this: Once you HAVE been 'born in Spirit', you will KNOW. And not only will you know that you HAVE been 'born again', you will KNOW The Father and you will KNOW the Son.

And those that would argue this do little other than confess that they have YET to reach this point in their walk.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Tomlane]

Imagican, how refreshing it is to read that you have been taught by the Holy Spirit and are of one of Christ's.

1 John 4:6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Tomlane

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

elius:
"Can you have a relationship with God without it?
Sure you can
Will it be what it is suppose to be
No, you will always lack something."

GE:
Denied!
You lack nothing lacking to have been baptised in or with water;
you lack redemption completely lacking being baptised "in / by the Name" --- lacking being "born of Water / Christ and Fire / Spirit".

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Imagican:
"God KNOWS what's in YOUR heart. No amount of 'water' is able to alter this in the LEAST. Either one accepts Christ INTO their heart and IS Baptized in Spirit, or they have NOT reached this point yet. "

GE:
I beg to differ; there is no difference between water-baptism as the work of man's choice and 'willing' than man's work of 'choice and willing'. "Either one accepts Christ INTO their heart and IS Baptized in Spirit, or they have NOT reached this point yet", is putting the cart before the horses. Either one IS Baptized in Spirit AND SO accepts Christ into one's heart, or God, has not yet reached this point in one's life, which tells nothing of whether He ever will or not.

 

[Tomlane]

Ephs. 4:5 correctly states there is one baptism only. God never intended water in relation to salvation.

John's water was to prepare for Christ's coming period. Man and his carnal traditions have added water baptism in connection to salvation.

God says that which is not of faith is sin and faith comes from hearing the word of God. We hear it in our hearts and this is where God sees us.

We steal God's glory when we add water to his perfectly completed and finished work that He has done for all of us. Its is all his doing and all we do is believe from the heart, nothing more.

How man's religions add to God's word so badly and add to what is already perfect, complete and beautiful. Since all our righteousness is as filthy rags how can we add to that which has been made complete for justification, salvation and sealed for eternal life through Spiritual baptism an operation done completely by God? God has said all of this and when we change it we call God a liar.

Tomlane

 

[Cornelius]

Ok Cornillius,

Let me put it simply:

While the churches teach that Baptism is 'all important' to obtainment of Salvation, I contend that they are 'wrong'. Like many of their 'traditions', these were created by those that wished for their followers to believe that they MUST follow their lead or be damned.

Water Baptism may well be a 'means' of confessing one's beliefs. But it may also be nothing more than a 'ritual' of none effect.

What matters more than either is Baptism of Spirit which has little if ANYTHING to do with 'literal water'. Tell this to the traditionalists though and they 'pitch a fit'.

God KNOWS what's in YOUR heart. No amount of 'water' is able to alter this in the LEAST. Either one accepts Christ INTO their heart and IS Baptized in Spirit, or they have NOT reached this point yet.

I have noticed that there ARE those that KNOW this and then there are those that DON'T. I cannot offer advice on HOW to 'get there' other than READ, PRAY, and humble oneself before God through repentance. Other than that I can offer little more.

But I can offer this: Once you HAVE been 'born in Spirit', you will KNOW. And not only will you know that you HAVE been 'born again', you will KNOW The Father and you will KNOW the Son.

And those that would argue this do little other than confess that they have YET to reach this point in their walk.

Blessings,

MEC

Jesus just said "Baptize them" now we spend so much time telling each other why Jesus did not mean what He said.

Humans do that, when they do not want to do a thing. (I know, I am the same , remember.... I too share humanity with you and I know the feeling too well. This morning God took me on about something and I denied it and looked for a way to explain why I was not SO wrong as He said. One would think that after 30 years of Christianity I would know better )

You are also not the first and will not be the last to resist this very simple command. Its just pride. It is a rather humbling experience going to somebody and asking them to baptize you. Especially when we have been a Christian for a long time and we are already speaking in tongues. You are thinking about what "they" will think if after all this resisting, you finally agree with Jesus and get into the water. Our minds are VERY able to give us excuses when we need them. Surely you have seen this in other people regarding other matters?

Have you ever seen how somebody will deny the baptism in the Spirit ? Man, they will tell you its not for today and will explain till the moon turns green. And then , God baptizes this person in the Spirit, they speak in tongues and all arguments fly out of the window. Now they are seeing visions and they are prophesying. They lay hands on the sick , they drive out demons and month ago, they were saying it does not happen anymore. LOL

You should have been there, when my pastor (some years ago) stood and watched as God filled the members with the Holy Spirit and he said its not possible LOL. Suddenly the congregation of this Baptist Church became exited about God. Things were HAPPENING. Visions, prophecies, healing. People were coming to church. And then one day our dear pastor received it as well Man you should have seen us then HA, it was back in the 80s and God was MOVING.

You should have seen the lines that were forming for water baptism in those days. So many people all of a sudden lost their rebellion and were baptized. Praise God, I believe a really powerful revival (TRUE revival, not these phony ones) is about to hit this planet.

blessings
C

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus just said "Baptize them" now we spend so much time telling each other why Jesus did not mean what He said.

Humans do that, when they do not want to do a thing. (I know, I am the same , remember.... I too share humanity with you and I know the feeling too well. This morning God took me on about something and I denied it and looked for a way to explain why I was not SO wrong as He said. One would think that after 30 years of Christianity I would know better )

You are also not the first and will not be the last to resist this very simple command. Its just pride. It is a rather humbling experience going to somebody and asking them to baptize you. Especially when we have been a Christian for a long time and we are already speaking in tongues. You are thinking about what "they" will think if after all this resisting, you finally agree with Jesus and get into the water. Our minds are VERY able to give us excuses when we need them. Surely you have seen this in other people regarding other matters?

A refreshing post filled with humility and a call to recognize our need to be like Christ - humble and obedient. Something not found here too often.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Cornillius,

Firstly: I HAVE been 'Baptized in water'. What I offer I offer out of 'personal revelation'. For the 'water Baptism' is NOT what 'brought me to Christ'. It was MANY years 'later' that I was able to accept Christ into my heart and NOT through any such 'ritual' as 'water Baptism'.

I am NOT going to argue that 'water Baptism' has NO PLACE in the lives of ANYONE. I cannot say that it can or cannot bring about Salvation.

But I will say that I personally believe that it has LITTLE effect compared with 'Baptism in Spirit'.

Some would contend that they are the SAME. I KNOW better. And it pains me to see those that are not secure in their understanding being led in this direction. It is a weak and insignificant ritual when compared with the truth.

While one may well 'begin their walk' through such a ritual, I have rarely witnessed that it has much if ANY true POWER as does The Spirit.

Many would contend that it IS The Spirit that is able to inspire one to take part in 'water Baptism'. This may be true. But IS IT TRUE in ALL situations? I have not witnessed it to BE SO.

I have discussed this issue in previous threads, (this is by no means the FIRST), and it seems that no matter how one tries to approach it, some will insist upon defending what they have been taught by men rather than accept the OBVIOUS. Let me explain:

IF 'water Baptism' is effectual, do you NOT believe that it MUST follow certain patterns? What KIND of water is to be used. WHO is to PERFORM this 'ritual'. What CONDITIONS MUST BE present in the heart or being of the individual who is Baptized in water. The list goes on and on. Yet some would profess a beleif that NONE OF THIS MATTERS. That's REDICULOUS. For there MUST be a 'truth' in the method or it is NOT A METHOD.

So, C, I do NOT approach this subject as a mere 'anarchist' or 'rebel' that just wants to 'deny' ANYTHING. I have simply offered that 'water Baptism' is NOT what it has been 'built up to BE'.

We are BOUND by our BELIEFS. What a sad thing to believe that 'water Baptism' is ABLE to DO what it may well NOT be ABLE to DO. Such false beliefs are CERTAINLY able to let those that believe in such a way rest in 'false belief'. For it is OBVIOUS to SEE that some believe that this is basically ALL one NEED DO in order to be 'born again'. And this IS deception of the heart.

Blessings,

MEC