Regaining Salvation...

[JLB]

Well, there you have it.

Jesus' very interpretation is that soil#4 was the one soil that did understand. Yet you say soils 2 & 3 did understand. And you accuse me of twisting, redefining, etc. (without one stitch of proof I should say).

Read Jesus' interpretation of the very parable in question again and compare it to what you just said:

Matthew 13:18 ... 23 “You, therefore, listen to the parable of the sower:
...
But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, ...” ​

Show me language where example 2 & 3 did not understand, and where Jesus said they did not understand.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21


What would cause this joy except understanding that they had received salvation, and the joy of salvation?

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Romans 14:17



JLB

 

[JLB]

Here is the question I would like you to answer. If you do not trust the Lord to bring you to His promise of escape from The Wrath of God, or Judgment and to eternal life in a new heaven and earth and has offered you a position as a Son of God and Brother of Christ, How are you going to Get There? And if you believe you can lose your salvation, then you do not trust Christ that said, NO one can take us out of His hands and the Gates of Hell could not came against His Church?

That's just it, I do trust the Lord, believe in Him and have faith in Him for salvation, and continue to have faith in Him, that He is well able to perfect that which concerns me and deliver me from my enemy.

The point of discussion, we are debating is those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are those who no longer trust in Him, and no longer have faith in Him, for they no longer believe He is Lord, and Savior, yet the OSAS camp says these are still saved, even though they no longer believe.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are the ones who are in danger of the wrath of God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry, I'm afraid there is. There are many that believe Jesus is the Christ, or believed and had joy in His Gospel, but never had faith in Christ. Now, there are no born again believers that do not have faith, they have been born again. They trust (have faith) in Christ. The Scriptures are full of people who believed Jesus was the Christ but did not put their faith in Him. John 12:42-43 Matthew Chapter 12 & 13; John 11:45-53.

Yes, as I see you are still stuck in the parable of the wheat and the tares, mindset.

The tares look just exactly like wheat, exactly.

Did you know the only way to tell them apart is... tares don't produce fruit, which in this case, is wheat.

You have to wait until the harvest time to tell which ones are tares and which ones are wheat.

Sometimes there is a late budding just before the harvest, in which some will put forth wheat in the last week just before the harvest.

That is what Jesus was teaching:

26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

• The tares only became distinguishable when the wheat budded, as the tares didn't.
• As the wheat began to bud forth, the tares were then seen because they did not bud; [produce wheat.]
• However, it was told to the reapers to wait until the harvest, because there may be some "late bloomers" that will bud and produce fruit at the end... lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.

The tares are never saved, although the look just exactly like the wheat, they never had faith.


However, we are discussing the parable of the sower, in which only good seeds are sown, and the four types of heart conditions the good seed was sown in.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:11-13

• The seed is the word of God. there is no bad seed, no false gospel. The devil steals the seed. [not sows bad seed.]
• The prerequisite for being saved is to believe...lest they should believe and be saved.
• Those who believe for a while, do in fact believe, thus fulfilling the requirement set by Jesus to be saved... but only for a while.

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

JLB

 

[chessman]

Show me language where example 2 & 3 did not understand, and where Jesus said they did not understand.

I did. Jesus said in Matthew's account that it was the good soil that was the one that understood.

Matthew 13:18 ... 23 “You, therefore, listen to the parable of the sower:
...
But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, ...” ​

Now you can either believe what He said or not.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your answer to indwelling sin and evil present is "so what?"

How about this: so what in regard to eternal security?

I have no response to that outright total dismissal of Gods Judgments against sin and evil.

There hasn't been any response yet to my question.

Paul presents the opposite case:

Romans 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

So what!?

Right. So what, in light of eternal security??

Please answer this. Or I'll keep asking "so what?"

 

[FreeGrace]

Forgiven sin does!

Thank God for The Righteous One.

1 John 2:1-2 (LEB) My little children, I am writing these things to you in order that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one, and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Amen!!

 

[FreeGrace]

It's quite unreasonable to to extend forgiveness past to point where it doesn't work:

Can you explain what this means?

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry, I'm afraid there is. There are many that believe Jesus is the Christ, or believed and had joy in His Gospel, but never had faith in Christ. Now, there are no born again believers that do not have faith, they have been born again. They trust (have faith) in Christ. The Scriptures are full of people who believed Jesus was the Christ but did not put their faith in Him. John 12:42-43 Matthew Chapter 12 & 13; John 11:45-53.

Note John's summary purpose of his gospel:
but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

According to John, those who believe that Jesus is the Christ will have life in His name.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's just it, I do trust the Lord, believe in Him and have faith in Him for salvation, and continue to have faith in Him, that He is well able to perfect that which concerns me and deliver me from my enemy.

The point of discussion, we are debating is those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are those who no longer trust in Him, and no longer have faith in Him, for they no longer believe He is Lord, and Savior, yet the OSAS camp says these are still saved, even though they no longer believe.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are the ones who are in danger of the wrath of God.
JLB

There really is no debate. Just lots of arguing. The Bible does not anywhere teach that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.

The Bible, DOES, otoh, teach that one must continue to believe in order to be presented holy and blameless before God the Father.

22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

 

[chessman]

What would cause this joy except understanding that they had received salvation, and the joy of salvation?

Eating to much and drinking to much and coveting and adultery etc. without having to offer sacrifices over and over for their sins??? I don't know nor do I care. I just know that Jesus said that the good soil was the one soil that understood the word. Thus, soil 2 did NOT understand the word of God. It's just simple logic. Not that complicated, really.

Sure puts illogic into your so called 'saved for a while' proof soil though.

 

[JLB]

[QUOTE="chessman, post: 1239063, member: 4074 to much and drinking to much and coveting and adultery etc. without having to offer sacrifices over and over for their sins??? I don't know nor do I care. I just know that Jesus said that the good soil was the one soil that understood the word. Thus, soil 2 did NOT understand the word of God. It's just simple logic. Not that complicated, really.
Sure puts illogic into your so called 'saved for a while' proof soil though.

You don't care?

Believing and receiving the Gospel message with joy, is evidence that we are experiencing the joy of salvation, understanding that we have been set free from the bondage of our old sinful life.

Understanding is what brings the joy.


JLB

 

[chessman]

The tares look just exactly like wheat, exactly.

Not to God they don't. Plus, that's not even true for us humans either. They look very similar during the early growth stages up until they BOTH start to form their grain sacks, which is well before harvest time. But once the grain sacklets starts to appear, it's easy to tell their differences. Thus, the reason the slaves were able to tell that the tares (darnel) were mixed in with the wheat to begin with, well before their harvest.

Matthew 13:27 (LEB) So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have darnel?’​

but gather the wheat into my barn.

And gather the wheat He will! Nope, no tares being gathered into the master's barn in this parables. Nor is there any such thing as tares/darnel producing wheat during it's last week either. Nor wheat producing darnel either!

Sometimes there is a late budding just before the harvest, in which some will put forth wheat in the last week just before the harvest.

Got any Scripture or other actual agricultural data to support this idea (tares budding late and producing wheat during it's last week)? Darnel/tares (which is called false wheat in some locations for a reason) putting forth wheat, now there's a twist. That's even more ridiculous than them looking exactly alike until harvest time. They are literallt two different genetic species that happen to look similar during their early growth stage, that's all. False wheat (darnel, tares) 'sometimes' budding and producing wheat during their last week before harvest... you're a hoot with these parable 'interpretations'.

The tares are never saved, although the look just exactly like the wheat

Tares/darnel have one grain per sacklet and wheat has two. And their grains are oriented 90 degrees different down the stalk. Well before harvest. Plus, wheat turns golden brown before harvest and darnel is black. Them looking exactly alike until just before harvest is and old wives tale. Not true at all. Obviously, from the Text itself even if you didn't know anything about wheat farming.

As the wheat began to bud forth, the tares were then seen because they did not bud; [produce wheat.]

Who told you this?
Tares/darnel NEVER produce wheat. They are two different seeds and two different plants, they don't just change genetic makeup 'sometimes' late in life. And darnel has grains budding too, along with the wheat. Just like any other grain plant. That's how the slaves new that good seed had been planted in the field, not darnel seeds. Once they both start to produce grain sacks, you can easily tell the difference between the two species.

The agricultural reason you'd not go ahead and pull up the darnel during the rest of the growth cycle waiting till harvest time is that you'd do more damage to the wheat than you's do good. You'd damage the wheat trampling it down and disturbing the intermixed roots would kill more wheat than it benefited by having the weeds gone. And for the theological reason, it's not in our job description to destroy darnel (bad seeds). That's the slave Master's job.

The reason is NOT to wait around hoping that 'sometimes' darnel turns into wheat late in life (Or vise versa) as you seem to be implying by all this made up stuff about darnel producing wheat.

 

[chessman]

Believing and receiving the Gospel message with joy, is evidence that we are experiencing the joy of salvation, understanding that we have been set free from the bondage of our old sinful life.

That's a whole lot a 'JLB interpretation' of soil 2 going on there with absolutely zero JC interpretation of that soil type going on.

 

[Douglas Summers]

yet the OSAS camp says these are still saved, even though they no longer believe.

That is a new one to me. I always thought they had assurance of Gods eternal security because, not that they quit believing, but that there is nothing that can separate them from the Love of God by the sins they commit in the weakness of the flesh. For a born again believer would never quit believing (it is not possible for a born again believer to rid himself of the Holy Spirit) nor would it ever cross His mind. He is a literal part of Christ. The body of Christ is a living organism, not an organization. A weak and sinning saint is described in 1 Cor. 3: 3-23.

 

[JLB]

I did. Jesus said in Matthew's account that it was the good soil that was the one that understood.

Show the language in the 2 & 3 type's of soil that show us they did not understand.

Because the 4th type was those who hear the word and understand it, doesn't mean the 2 & 3 didn't understand it.

We see the soil that produced fruit was a good and noble heart, which did keep and hold fast the seed with patience, which is called enduring, or continuing in the face of tribulation and persecution.

It wasn't just understanding.

But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:15

Of the 4 types of soil, which ones were saved?

Why?



JLB

 

[JLB]

That's a whole lot a 'JLB interpretation' of soil 2 going on there with absolutely zero JC interpretation of that soil type going on.

They received the Gospel message with joy.

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; Matthew 13:20

...receives it with joy.

The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.


Sorry, Chessman, you going to have to do better than "I don't know, and I don't care"



JLB

 

[JLB]

Who told you this?
Tares/darnel NEVER produce wheat. They are two different seeds and two different plants, they don't just change genetic makeup 'sometimes' late in life. And darnel has grains budding too, along with the wheat. Just like any other grain plant. That's how the slaves new that good seed had been planted in the field, not darnel seeds. Once they both start to produce grain sacks, you can easily tell the difference between the two species.

Really?

Tell us what the difference in the genetic make up of male marijuana, and female marijuana.

The male marijuana is just a weed, whereas the female produces buds.

It's all marijuana.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Not to God they don't. Plus, that's not even true for us humans either. They look very similar during the early growth stages up until they BOTH start to form their grain sacks, which is well before harvest time. But once the grain sacklets starts to appear, it's easy to tell their differences. Thus, the reason the slaves were able to tell that the tares (darnel) were mixed in with the wheat to begin with, well before their harvest.

Matthew 13:27 (LEB) So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have darnel?’

But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. Matthew 13:26

The "slaves" as your version states, are the angels who are there to gather the harvest.

The angels couldn't distinguish the wheat from the tares until the wheat sprouted, then it was evident which were the tares.
The tares didn't produce fruit.

The tares look exactly like the wheat, and the only way to know the difference is when the the wheat sprouted.

as it says...when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.


JLB

 

[JLB]

That is a new one to me. I always thought they had assurance of Gods eternal security because, not that they quit believing, but that there is nothing that can separate them from the Love of God by the sins they commit in the weakness of the flesh. For a born again believer would never quit believing (it is not possible for a born again believer to rid himself of the Holy Spirit) nor would it ever cross His mind. He is a literal part of Christ. The body of Christ is a living organism, not an organization. A weak and sinning saint is described in 1 Cor. 3: 3-23.

Is someone who believes for a while, then no longer believes, still a believer?

An honest answer would go along way, towards sorting out what's true and what's false.

I think we both agree that eternal life is promised to believers.

12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13


Do those who no longer believe in Jesus Christ, still have the Son?



JLB

 

[smaller]

How about this: so what in regard to eternal security?

It is appropriate to recognize that God in Christ is not in alignment with any of this "in" believers:

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

We can all blow Holy Smoke all day long to ourselves about our "right standing" with God using "eternal security" or "works" but in the end, we find out that God in Christ condemns the above, regardless of such blowing.