Revelation 1:1-3 Seldom examined verses

[Dorothy Mae]

Date of Revelation | Evidence Unseen

www.evidenceunseen.com

Late date

RC Sproul is not a church father. Clement was and his dating is before 70AD.

You can continue putting up links but they don’t convince anyone as you yourself cannot support your position. You can only hope someone else can express what you think. If you cannot put your position into words, why would anyone want to accept it?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't buy replacement theology .

The church wasn't at horeb
The church wasn't required to offer sacrifices .these are shadows .

You can't insert the church in visions about the 12 tribes in heaven and 24 elders .

It is not understanding grafting into the vine but assumes a take over and so I agree.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

RC Sproul is not a church father. Clement was and his dating is before 70AD.

You can continue putting up links but they don’t convince anyone as you yourself cannot support your position. You can only hope someone else can express what you think. If you cannot put your position into words, why would anyone want to accept it?

He already has put his position into words. If you didn't understand it you couldn't be arguing with it yet here you are arguing with it.

You are one of the rudest people I've ever seen on this site.

 

[jasonc]

RC Sproul is not a church father. Clement was and his dating is before 70AD.

You can continue putting up links but they don’t convince anyone as you yourself cannot support your position. You can only hope someone else can express what you think. If you cannot put your position into words, why would anyone want to accept it?

Is historical reference by Josephus your words ?

No.yiu merely just say he said .you haven't quoted his story .

I don't need to .I'm not going rack ny memories and verify this position over a side debate when I was here long before you .debating this very thing .

Rc Sproul is actually a direct influence on my elders .one who was taught by him and said he isn't a partial preterists amil .he said those are weird .he teaches eschatology .amil but not locked.said what I said no neat litrle box .

Now the. Show me how Josephus said that clearly the aod was the same thing Daniel spoke of as most see that as similar to what the Jews saw during the macabbean revolt .the image of Zeus with pork offerings and Jews unable to worship .
Ad 70 had some of that but no proclamation of God where he sat where he shouldn't as the image of ceaser didn't go into the holy of holies .

The image of Zeus was built there .

Btw

The few of mods here when I was debating this were as you .

Vic c admin
Reba moderator and admin
Myself for a time .

Feel free to look at my old username Jason .

 

[jasonc]

I wouldn't expect my elders to use no commentary on a loaded question and have and answer off the cuff .unless they are gonna teach it . eschatology often has one jumping all over the Bible .

Now my mind can do that if I focus on it but only if have read up on it and do so often .once I don't the cobb webbs

I recite oral history here and when I haven't in a bit I have to look it up again and I took my pastor to an old early Florida history area and said I will be bit rusty as I haven't looked at it in a year .

A simple story of James paine who fought at ft.capron and came back to found a town nearby and is buried there.minor details matter on that .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Is historical reference by Josephus your words ?

I’m not sure what this reges to. The first name in your link was Sproul.

No.yiu merely just say he said .you haven't quoted his story .

I quote Clement. Shall I quote Josephus? Can you them quote someone?

I don't need to .I'm not going rack ny memories and verify this position over a side debate when I was here long before you .debating this very thing .

Does being here long mean you know more? I don’t see the connection.

Rc Sproul is actually a direct influence on my elders .one who was taught by him and said he isn't a partial preterists amil .he said those are weird .he teaches eschatology .amil but not locked.said what I said no neat litrle box .

OK. I haven’t heard him on eschatology. I first heard of him when he did tape on Islam. That was quite good.

Now the. Show me how Josephus said that clearly the aod was the same thing Daniel spoke of as most see that as similar to what the Jews saw during the macabbean revolt .the image of Zeus with pork offerings and Jews unable to worship .

Josephus wasn’t a christian and probably knew nothing of the book of Revelation. I think Eusebius wrote the abomination was placed in the temple in those days.

Ad 70 had some of that but no proclamation of God where he sat where he shouldn't as the image of ceaser didn't go into the holy of holies

That man closer to the time said it was so. The reference is vague so it’s hard for us to say what that exactly was but it’s assumed a statue worshipped by the gentiles, but I don’t know.

.

The image of Zeus was built there .

Btw

The few of mods here when I was debating this were as you .

Vic c admin
Reba moderator and admin
Myself for a time .

Feel free to look at my old username Jason .

Ok thanks. I am NOT at all clear on the details of my general position. I cannot answer all questions by any means. I’m still exploring these things. So something’s match and others are a mystery to me.

But the peace of mind knowing “soon” meant soon and that the recepients needed and understood was an immense relief. Not the least of which is knowing Jesus’ prophesies were spot on correct and need no silly excusing. Jesus spoke the truth aids my faith.

 

[eddif]

1 Corinthians 1:11 kjv
11. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14. I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15. Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

I hope I can show the point I see through a glass darkly ( through dark sunglasses).

The Greek word (baptize):
Is immerse.
But
As used in verse 17 means ( I Paul did not come to immerse you into my doctrine, but to immerse you into the knowledge of the gospel of Christ).

1 Corinthians 3:4 kjv
4.For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5. Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

To quote people is not our calling, but to believe the gospel (good news) is.

Mississippi Redneck

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1 Corinthians 1:11 kjv
11. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14. I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15. Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

I hope I can show the point I see through a glass darkly ( through dark sunglasses).

The Greek word (baptize):
Is immerse.
But
As used in verse 17 means ( I Paul did not come to immerse you into my doctrine, but to immerse you into the knowledge of the gospel of Christ).

1 Corinthians 3:4 kjv
4.For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5. Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

To quote people is not our calling, but to believe the gospel (good news) is.

Mississippi Redneck

This thread is not about believing the Gospel. We’ve moved beyond the elementary matters of milk and into meat.

 

[n2thelight]

Then the beginning makes no sense as those to whom it was written would never understand it. Jesus said repeatedly “soon” and it actually happened shortly after that letter was sent. I know your position well and it has a lot of holes, the first being it didn’t happen to them at all and so wasn’t a book they needed to understand yet Jesus said it was on both accounts.

No , for them at the time , they did but they didn't, if that makes sense

The book makes sense to me and many others and we don’t see it from that point of view. How do you make sense of “what will soon take place” when it hasn’t happened for 2000+ years?

Thanks for participating even if we disagree.

We have many verses throughout scripture which are types , if you are a student of the Word , you should know most of them.

Gonna drop this one for example

1corin10

I Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." "Ensamples" in the manuscripts is the Greek word "tupos", number 5179 in the Strong's Greek dictionary. "a sample, or type; i.e. a model for imitation, a fashion, for manner, or form." So Paul is telling us that those things that we read about in the Old Testament, of the events of the prophets of old are examples of what we should be looking for in our day. This is written to alert all people to be aware of how it shall be before Christ returns. What was written in the Exodus, or in Amos is written as examples for our admonition or warning. All of the Scriptures is given as a warning to those who are living in the times of the ends of this world age of the flesh. We will see the end of the flesh age come to a close, and there are many things that will come to pass right before our eyes that were written about in detail way back in the Old Testament time, and Paul is telling you and I to wake up to those warnings. Each of the events that took place, the opening of the Red sea, the building of the false religious forms, and so on. God is telling us "look little children that is what is going to happen to you at the close of this earth age". We are living in that age, and these things are happening now. Can you learn by this? It is so simple. God did not leave us helpless nor hopeless in these end times, and that is why we must become skilled in all of His Word. It is all an example of what is going to befall us in our generation. It wasn't the end back then

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No , for them at the time , they did but they didn't, if that makes sense

What could it have meant to them since Jesus repeatedly said what is soon to take place and in your view did not? He gave them instructions to get ready for something that in your view, was not going to happen and Jesus knew it. What could it have meant to them?

We have many verses throughout scripture which are types , if you are a student of the Word , you should know most of them.

Ah, this ploy if "if you are smart/educated/a true scotsman, you would think as I do." We have many verses throughout scripture that instruct believers how to behave. If a man is prepared to actually do them, they will understand those verses and more. The book of Revelation was written so that those who were about to go through terrible suffering would know what to do and understand what it is happening. That is the purpose that it says at the beginning.

Gonna drop this one for example

1corin10

Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
"Ensamples" in the manuscripts is the Greek word "tupos", number 5179 in the Strong's Greek dictionary. "a sample, or type; i.e. a model for imitation, a fashion, for manner, or form." So Paul is telling us that those things that we read about in the Old Testament, of the events of the prophets of old are examples of what we should be looking for in our day. This is written to alert all people to be aware of how it shall be before Christ returns.

NO, that is not at all what Paul was saying. He actually told them not to sin as they did in the wilderness. Verse 6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. That was the purpose. It was definitely NOT so that the people can look forward to the second coming. That view is totally changing the purpose of the scripture, that is, to do as Jesus taught not have a certain mindset.

The end of the age happened at the end of the Jewish Mosaic covenant age. That was the end of the age spoken of and it mattered to them. They needed to leave town at a certain signs. They needed to know that the church would be decimated but not wiped out and it would only last 3.5 years. The Bible is not written to us so we can await an event this is likely to happen 1000s of years from now and more than that from when it was written. IT is written so that we may believe and alter our lives accordingly.

What was written in the Exodus, or in Amos is written as examples for our admonition or warning. All of the Scriptures is given as a warning to those who are living in the times of the ends of this world age of the flesh. We will see the end of the flesh age come to a close, and there are many things that will come to pass right before our eyes that were written about in detail way back in the Old Testament time, and Paul is telling you and I to wake up to those warnings. Each of the events that took place, the opening of the Red sea, the building of the false religious forms, and so on. God is telling us "look little children that is what is going to happen to you at the close of this earth age". We are living in that age, and these things are happening now. Can you learn by this? It is so simple. God did not leave us helpless nor hopeless in these end times, and that is why we must become skilled in all of His Word. It is all an example of what is going to befall us in our generation. It wasn't the end back then

No that is not why the Bible was written and says so. God left no generation hopeless as we see in the pages on church history. In your view, they were as the end you anticipate did not come nor would it same as it won’t happen in your lifetime.

 

[n2thelight]

Ah, this ploy if "if you are smart/educated/a true scotsman, you would think as I do." We have many verses throughout scripture that instruct believers how to behave. If a man is prepared to actually do them, they will understand those verses and more. The book of Revelation was written so that those who were about to go through terrible suffering would know what to do and understand what it is happening. That is the purpose that it says at the beginning.

Noooo, promise I didn't mean it that way .(ploy)

All I'm saying is that the end time generation will see the fulfillment of the last prophecies , and everything that happened before Christ returns is looking forward to that return .

Revelation is not about suffering , I mean heck we as Christian shave suffering since Christ, the end is all about deception

Generation of the fig tree for an example , we suppose to know what that means as Christ told us Himself .

Now back to my meaning

Ecclesiastes 1:9 "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."​

Solomon, with the guidance of the Spirit of God, is telling you that those things that have happened before, will happen again. It is important that you understand this. There is no new idea or thing that can happen to man that has not already happened to man. Remember that "under the sun" in in reference to "this flesh body of man".

This point helps us understand the Word of God, and the types that the prophets of old give us in their writings. Paul told us in I Corinthians 10:11; "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

In the below , what generation is this ?

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

​

 

[n2thelight]

NO, that is not at all what Paul was saying. He actually told them not to sin as they did in the wilderness. Verse 6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. That was the purpose. It was definitely NOT so that the people can look forward to the second coming. That view is totally changing the purpose of the scripture, that is, to do as Jesus taught not have a certain mindset.

With that view ,you saying the scripture has no purpose for us living now . Those people were not living in the end times , we are .

 

[n2thelight]

The end of the age happened at the end of the Jewish Mosaic covenant age. That was the end of the age spoken of and it mattered to them. They needed to leave town at a certain signs. They needed to know that the church would be decimated but not wiped out and it would only last 3.5 years. The Bible is not written to us so we can await an event this is likely to happen 1000s of years from now and more than that from when it was written. IT is written so that we may believe and alter our lives accordingly.

The end of the age did not happen back then , could not have

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Noooo, promise I didn't mean it that way .(ploy)

OK, just be aware of how that sort of wording comes across.

All I'm saying is that the end time generation will see the fulfillment of the last prophecies , and everything that happened before Christ returns is looking forward to that return .

Ok, you have stated your position and I agree but the exact prophesies is where we disagree. That is, actually, the discussion. I think Christ will come again as he said in the latter part of Matthew 24 and the Resurrection at that time with the judgement of the living and the dead.

Revelation is not about suffering , I mean heck we as Christian shave suffering since Christ, the end is all about deception

The descriptions are of terrible suffering never known by a nation before and will never occur again. The bowls of wrath are all about suffering. What else do you think the outcome is? I am curious.

Generation of the fig tree for an example , we suppose to know what that means as Christ told us Himself .

Where is Jesus ever referred to as a fig tree by himself or others?

Now back to my meaning

Ecclesiastes 1:9 "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."​

Solomon, with the guidance of the Spirit of God, is telling you that those things that have happened before, will happen again. It is important that you understand this. There is no new idea or thing that can happen to man that has not already happened to man. Remember that "under the sun" in in reference to "this flesh body of man".​

Do you think the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ is something that is not new? Do you think this happened before and will happen again? What about Pentecost? Did that happen before in human history? Do you see the prophets agreeing with this position in their prophesies or is maybe Solomon somewhat singular in his pessimism.

This point helps us understand the Word of God, and the types that the prophets of old give us in their writings. Paul told us in I Corinthians 10:11; "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
​

It is actually the end of the age, not the world. Again, why did Paul say these things were written? The answer is so that we do not do the sin that they did.

In the below , what generation is this ?

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."​

The generation that heard him say those words. In my view, Jesus spoke the 100% truth. In your view, he was mistaken. He was also mistaken that those who pierced him would see with their natural eyes the judgement of God upon them. For you, this is also a mistaken prophesy. This is one of many difficulties in your position.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The end of the age did not happen back then , could not have

Yes, it was the end of the Mosaic age, the end of the covenant between God and Israel. It was the end of that age.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

With that view ,you saying the scripture has no purpose for us living now . Those people were not living in the end times , we are .

It has the same significance as the prophesies of Jesus birth. That is, God fulfills His word to us. It also tells us that these terrible times will not happen to us as that is over and done. My view actually gives believers a tremendous hope. In your view christians need to be afraid of terrible times coming although those who think God will rescue them although according to Revelation, he does not such thing.

 

[eddif]

Noooo, promise I didn't mean it that way .(ploy)

All I'm saying is that the end time generation will see the fulfillment of the last prophecies , and everything that happened before Christ returns is looking forward to that return .

Revelation is not about suffering , I mean heck we as Christian shave suffering since Christ, the end is all about deception

Generation of the fig tree for an example , we suppose to know what that means as Christ told us Himself .

Now back to my meaning

Ecclesiastes 1:9 "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."​

Solomon, with the guidance of the Spirit of God, is telling you that those things that have happened before, will happen again. It is important that you understand this. There is no new idea or thing that can happen to man that has not already happened to man. Remember that "under the sun" in in reference to "this flesh body of man".

This point helps us understand the Word of God, and the types that the prophets of old give us in their writings. Paul told us in I Corinthians 10:11; "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

In the below , what generation is this ?

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

​

While I agree.

Some read Job 32:8
And
Omitt:
Types, shadows, hidden things, learning from history, revealed parable meaning, biblical dreams and visions, wheels within wheels etc.

eddif

 

[Dorothy Mae]

While I agree.

Some read Job 32:8
And
Omitt:
Types, shadows, hidden things, learning from history, revealed parable meaning, biblical dreams and visions, wheels within wheels etc.

eddif

Most seem to focus solely on the visions, dreams, wheels within wheels and do on without actually doing any of what we are commanded. This etheral focus gives one the assurance of “deeper” understanding without having to restrain any actual unholy desire. One feels one is wise when really one is blinding oneself.

Jesus said those who actually do his teaching will come to know the truth.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

What could it have meant to them since Jesus repeatedly said what is soon to take place and in your view did not? He gave them instructions to get ready for something that in your view, was not going to happen and Jesus knew it. What could it have meant to them?

Ah, this ploy if "if you are smart/educated/a true scotsman, you would think as I do." We have many verses throughout scripture that instruct believers how to behave. If a man is prepared to actually do them, they will understand those verses and more. The book of Revelation was written so that those who were about to go through terrible suffering would know what to do and understand what it is happening. That is the purpose that it says at the beginning.


Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
"Ensamples" in the manuscripts is the Greek word "tupos", number 5179 in the Strong's Greek dictionary. "a sample, or type; i.e. a model for imitation, a fashion, for manner, or form." So Paul is telling us that those things that we read about in the Old Testament, of the events of the prophets of old are examples of what we should be looking for in our day. This is written to alert all people to be aware of how it shall be before Christ returns.

NO, that is not at all what Paul was saying. He actually told them not to sin as they did in the wilderness. Verse 6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. That was the purpose. It was definitely NOT so that the people can look forward to the second coming. That view is totally changing the purpose of the scripture, that is, to do as Jesus taught not have a certain mindset.

The end of the age happened at the end of the Jewish Mosaic covenant age. That was the end of the age spoken of and it mattered to them. They needed to leave town at a certain signs. They needed to know that the church would be decimated but not wiped out and it would only last 3.5 years. The Bible is not written to us so we can await an event this is likely to happen 1000s of years from now and more than that from when it was written. IT is written so that we may believe and alter our lives accordingly.

No that is not why the Bible was written and says so. God left no generation hopeless as we see in the pages on church history. In your view, they were as the end you anticipate did not come nor would it same as it won’t happen in your lifetime.

You keep saying Jesus was talking to "them," but scripture doesn't say it was for them at that time.
It's actually for those who have an ear. Let them hear what the spirit says to the churches.

I personally believe Jesus is talking to his elect when he says "soon" .

Facts are fact though and facts are that the stars of heaven didn't fall upon the earth and the great earthquake that strikes Jerusalem didn't happen and the heavens didn't depart from the earth as it is written. People didn't hide in czves from the wrath of the Lamb.
None of those things took place and that is fact.

 

[eddif]

You keep saying Jesus was talking to "them," but scripture doesn't say it was for them at that time.
It's actually for those who have an ear. Let them hear what the spirit says to the churches.

I personally believe Jesus is talking to his elect when he says "soon" .

Facts are fact though and facts are that the stars of heaven didn't fall upon the earth and the great earthquake that strikes Jerusalem didn't happen and the heavens didn't depart from the earth as it is written. People didn't hide in czves from the wrath of the Lamb.
None of those things took place and that is fact.

First off. I am not trying to prove you wrong. There is a force greater than flesh and blood and human intellect that we are facing.

If we talk about types and shadows, it takes the Holy Spirit to give give the correct answers.

We do see through a glass darkly. One of the greatest blessings in my life, is a terrible thing I face. I have the start of macular degeneration. I have to look at things from many directions to see if a tiny blind spot is hiding a detail.

Types and shadows are real objects, but not the reality we seek. Now I know a day may come when my physical sight may get worse. I also know that the spiritual truth hidden in physical sight is the most important thing.

We have to face one area I deal with.
There are physical stars that will fall from heaven. There are spiritual fallen angels that fall from the third heaven. Pretty sure only the elect you speak of can tell the difference:
Confusion will present to some
Through dark sunshades hit others
Some see two witnesses
Some will see three witnesses

How to even discuss this is a problem.

The earthquake, darkness, graves opened at the time of Jesus’s death are important, but so far I can not see every detail. These things that happened are probably types and shadows of an ultimate reality. All the words we possess fall short. One day we will know. Right now some of it is still a mystery to me, but I am still looking at it from different directions.

eddif