Righteousness

[Grubal Muruch]

When I read that through one mans disobedience sin entered into all men, I do not get out of it through ones man's disobedience, disobedience entered into all men. You seem to equate disobedience and sin as the same. My take is sin is being in a state of unrighteousness separate and apart from God in some degree.

Disobedience to God's rules, is considered sin. "Thou shalt not kill" If we kill, we are being disobedient to God's commandment. "Thou shall not steal" If we steal we are being disobedient to God's commandment and so on. To be disobedient to God's rules is to sin. They are inseparable. Sin is rebellion towards God. So being disobedient (to disobey a directive) is the epitome of sin against God. In conclusion, disobedience is sin against God.

 

[childeye]

Disobedience to God's rules, is considered sin. "Thou shalt not kill" If we kill, we are being disobedient to God's commandment. "Thou shall not steal" If we steal we are being disobedient to God's commandment and so on. To be disobedient to God's rules is to sin. They are inseparable. Sin is rebellion towards God. So being disobedient (to disobey a directive) is the epitome of sin against God. In conclusion, disobedience is sin against God.

This outlook begs the question; Why did Paul say sin existed before the law but men were not held attributable until the law?
Romans 5:13

King James Version (KJV)


13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: was God's

Okay I see where you are coming from and must respectfully disagree. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was a death trap for carnal beings in my view. It would be like saying don't touch the fire or you'll get burned. There is an instruction from God meant to protect us. I even believe the toil we experience and the suffering through birth are a fall from grace, a consequence of what was lost in the fall. God has made many stations under Him all the way to hell. The Love of God and therefore the praise of God cannot be founded upon fear of what He will do to you if you disobey Him. Nonetheless there are those that believe this and are still under temptation. I would wonder what you think it means to be under grace. For to be under grace to me means we acknowledge that without God there is no goodness in us.

Your view seems to say that the fear of punishment is the reason to be good. No doubt it is a valid reason but self serving and carnal and not of faith. This is an Old Testament point of view since we now know righteousness is not imparted through the doing of commandments.[/QUOTE
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The sinner, without Christ, has plenty to be concerned with regarding the judgement of God. And, such a one is in a position to be fearful. (It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.) For the believer, he no longer fears the condemnation, because of the Atonement of Christ. But he still can come under the discipline of God, for his unfaithfulness.
You said, "I even believe the toil we experience and the suffering through birth are a fall from grace, a consequence of what was lost in the fall. I agree with you 100%...Being under the Grace of God, means, we are no longer under the law, but under God's forgiveness and mercy through the sacrificial act of the Atonement (shed blood for our sins made by Christ. For without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness) Grace is given to ANYONE who puts his faith in Christ, not in his own works. Grace is the gift of God (activated by one's faith) and cannot be earned in any way, Salvation is entirely of God and nothing we can do can earn it...Everyone (all beings) have the ability (given by God) to place their faith in something. Philosophy, religion, atheism, riches, etc,. etc,. Only faith put in Christ however, will save and assure us a place in eternity...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

This outlook begs the question; Why did Paul say sin existed before the law but men were not held attributable until the law?
Romans 5:13

King James Version (KJV)


13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Before the law, sin could not be called sin until the written law was instituted. But regardless the Word still says that sin was in the world from Adam to Moses. That we cannot ignore...Before the written law, man knew, from his own conscience when he sinned. From Adam on, man has an awareness of sinfulness. As soon as Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, he was aware of his nakedness. Because his eyes were opened to good and evil...

 

[childeye]

Re: was God's

Okay I see where you are coming from and must respectfully disagree. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was a death trap for carnal beings in my view. It would be like saying don't touch the fire or you'll get burned. There is an instruction from God meant to protect us. I even believe the toil we experience and the suffering through birth are a fall from grace, a consequence of what was lost in the fall. God has made many stations under Him all the way to hell. The Love of God and therefore the praise of God cannot be founded upon fear of what He will do to you if you disobey Him. Nonetheless there are those that believe this and are still under temptation. I would wonder what you think it means to be under grace. For to be under grace to me means we acknowledge that without God there is no goodness in us.

Your view seems to say that the fear of punishment is the reason to be good. No doubt it is a valid reason but self serving and carnal and not of faith. This is an Old Testament point of view since we now know righteousness is not imparted through the doing of commandments.[/QUOTE
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The sinner, without Christ, has plenty to be concerned with regarding the judgement of God. And, such a one is in a position to be fearful. (It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.) For the believer, he no longer fears the condemnation, because of the Atonement of Christ. But he still can come under the discipline of God, for his unfaithfulness.
You said, "I even believe the toil we experience and the suffering through birth are a fall from grace, a consequence of what was lost in the fall. I agree with you 100%...Being under the Grace of God, means, we are no longer under the law, but under God's forgiveness and mercy through the sacrificial act of the Atonement (shed blood for our sins made by Christ. For without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness) Grace is given to ANYONE who puts his faith in Christ, not in his own works. Grace is the gift of God (activated by one's faith) and cannot be earned in any way, Salvation is entirely of God and nothing we can do can earn it...Everyone (all beings) have the ability (given by God) to place their faith in something. Philosophy, religion, atheism, riches, etc,. etc,. Only faith put in Christ however, will save and assure us a place in eternity...

I can appreciate your view of grace. It fits well with saved by grace through faith. What it is missing in my reasoning is the promise of writing in the hearts and minds the laws of God making a man righteous on the inside. To put one's faith in the Christ is not an ability all men have at their discretion. The blood of the New Covenant is an atonement not all seem to be able to comprehend much less believe in. I believe a man must have some Word of God present to ascertain understanding and come to believe. Therefore what looks to us like men choosing would be in reality Christ dividing or sifting. I say this not to take credit for believing but to not take credit for believing.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: was God's

I can appreciate your view of grace. It fits well with saved by grace through faith. What it is missing in my reasoning is the promise of writing in the hearts and minds the laws of God making a man righteous on the inside. To put one's faith in the Christ is not an ability all men have at their discretion. The blood of the New Covenant is an atonement not all seem to be able to comprehend much less believe in. I believe a man must have some Word of God present to ascertain understanding and come to believe. Therefore what looks to us like men choosing would be in reality Christ dividing or sifting. I say this not to take credit for believing but to not take credit for believing.

We are made righteous through Christ, and His Atonement on the cross. Once the Holy Spirit has indwelt /sealed you you are cleansed of ALL your sins and are (Born again Spiritually.) We no longer are under law but under Grace. God's gift of Salvation through Grace is a free gift to ALL men, but will not be received by, ALL this is true...

You say: " I believe a man must have some Word of God present to ascertain understanding and come to believe." Your right. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Unless a person is exposed to the written "Word of God," he will not hear about the Grace, (forgiveness/mercy) offered to mankind, through the shed blood of Jesus His Son...

The Bible says: "For by Grace you have been saved through faith,(human faith being the beginning) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, ( It's not speaking here of faith, it's talking about God's Grace) not of works lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Romans 10:8-15 The word of faith which was being preached. Read these passages "VERY" carefully...It will explain, "the way of faith."

 

[childeye]

Before the law, sin could not be called sin until the written law was instituted. But regardless the Word still says that sin was in the world from Adam to Moses. That we cannot ignore...Before the written law, man knew, from his own conscience when he sinned. From Adam on, man has an awareness of sinfulness. As soon as Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, he was aware of his nakedness. Because his eyes were opened to good and evil...

I don't get how you say sin could not be called sin before the law. I don't think being naked is the issue but having shame of who you are is. That is why Jesus debases himself in stature while Satan tries to elevate himself. He who believes in Jesus will not be ashamed. The blood of Jesus cleanses one of a defiled conscience. Not by dying because of us but for us.

 

[childeye]

Re: was God's

We are made righteous through Christ, and His Atonement on the cross. Once the Holy Spirit has indwelt /sealed you you are cleansed of ALL your sins and are (Born again Spiritually.) We no longer are under law but under Grace. God's gift of Salvation through Grace is a free gift to ALL men, but will not be received by, ALL this is true...

You say: " I believe a man must have some Word of God present to ascertain understanding and come to believe." Your right. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." Unless a person is exposed to the written "Word of God," he will not hear about the Grace, (forgiveness/mercy) offered to mankind, through the shed blood of Jesus His Son...

The Bible says: "For by Grace you have been saved through faith,(human faith being the beginning) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, ( It's not speaking here of faith, it's talking about God's Grace) not of works lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Romans 10:8-15 The word of faith which was being preached. Read these passages "VERY" carefully...It will explain, "the way of faith."

Yes I am familiar with this scripture. I guess what I need to reiterate is when I say one must have the Word to hear and believe, I am not refering to scripture but the voice of God in one's heart. Please note that elsewhere scripture says a man cannot confess Jesus as Lord without the Holy Spirit.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: was God's

Yes I am familiar with this scripture. I guess what I need to reiterate is when I say one must have the Word to hear and believe, I am not refering to scripture but the voice of God in one's heart. Please note that elsewhere scripture says a man cannot confess Jesus as Lord without the Holy Spirit.

God speaks to us today through His Word, (The Holy Bible) Again, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." We hear the word and the Holy Spirit works on our heart, to convict of sin and leads us to be, "Born again Spiritually." The Holy Spirit, when we place our faith in Christ as Lord and Savior, indwells/seals us and puts us in the body of Christ/rebirths us, Spiritually. We are then "born again Spiritually" as we were born physically now we are born Spiritually. As Jesus said, you will not enter the kingdom unless you are "Born again."

 

[childeye]

Re: was God's

God speaks to us today through His Word, (The Holy Bible) Again, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." We hear the word and the Holy Spirit works on our heart, to convict of sin and leads us to be, "Born again Spiritually." The Holy Spirit, when we place our faith in Christ as Lord and Savior, indwells/seals us and puts us in the body of Christ/rebirths us, Spiritually. We are then "born again Spiritually" as we were born physically now we are born Spiritually. As Jesus said, you will not enter the kingdom unless you are "Born again."

I don't disagree with what you say here except to say; if you are saying we do not hear God's voice in our hearts any longer I cannot agree. For it would be like saying we do not know Love until we read what it is in scripture.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: was God's

I don't disagree with what you say here except to say; if you are saying we do not hear God's voice in our hearts any longer I cannot agree. For it would be like saying we do not know Love until we read what it is in scripture.

I agree, sometimes the Spirit will, call to remembrance a Scripture or give us "a nugget of wisdom." that could only come from God speaking to our heart...

 

[childeye]

Re: was God's

I agree, sometimes the Spirit will, call to remembrance a Scripture or give us "a nugget of wisdom." that could only come from God speaking to our heart...

Well said and an excellent observation. Now this you have said sometimes takes some time to come to realize it was God Who spoke, thinking it was us. My personal experience is I say something too smart for it to have been me, so where did it come From? So if we apply the same example applied to the process of believing it is plausible that belief itself comes from God Who reveals Himself through the Testimony of the Holy Spirit in one's heart. Which brings to mind; Did not scripture say they shall all be taught by God?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: was God's

I don't disagree with what you say here except to say; if you are saying we do not hear God's voice in our hearts any longer I cannot agree. For it would be like saying we do not know Love until we read what it is in scripture.

Could I ask you what denomination you are affiliated with?

 

[childeye]

Re: was God's

Could I ask you what denomination you are affiliated with?

I was raised Roman Catholic, but I am not of any denomination. I received Christ from a personal one on one seeking of God. I knew there was a God but I did not even understand what a Christ or Messiah or Anointed one was, or why he would be sent, or why he would die for us. I could not believe in the Christ till God showed me. After He showed me I could not help but believe. I sought God out of desperation in a very dark time in my life. I received Christ through revelation. Afterwards I studied scripture to verify these revelations and the Apostles and the Christ were saying the same.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: was God's

I was raised Roman Catholic, but I am not of any denomination. I received Christ from a personal one on one seeking of God. I knew there was a God but I did not even understand what a Christ or Messiah or Anointed one was, or why he would be sent, or why he would die for us. I could not believe in the Christ till God showed me. After He showed me I could not help but believe. I sought God out of desperation in a very dark time in my life. I received Christ through revelation. Afterwards I studied scripture to verify these revelations and the Apostles and the Christ were saying the same.

Do you still attend the Catholic church, if not what denomination are you affiliated with?

 

[childeye]

Re: was God's

Do you still attend the Catholic church, if not what denomination are you affiliated with?

I have attended several different church congregations. Had my heart broken a few times and stopped going. I've met with several Catholic priests who take usually an hour to listen to my issues with certain doctrines. They act as if they've done it a thousand times and then give me a generic answer usually involving the word mystery. Some outright kick me out if I don't just blindly accept their authority.

I did meet with the head of theology for the archdiocese and he spent hours of his valuable time listening and commenting and it was a very good exchange. He wants me to come back to Catholicism but I'm not so sure. It's nice to be wanted but his acquaintance was a rarity for me in Catholic circles. I was a member of a Catholic forum for one day and was kicked off permanently for asking why we would literally eat the dead flesh and blood of Jesus.

I now sometimes go to a Lutheran church when I get some sort of homesickness inside me. I desire to be around people of God and have brothers and sisters I can confide in. People don't realy like to discuss theology and the Pastor is always too busy. so I end up again not going. This forum is the closest thing I have to church.

 

[Saltwater]

Hello Childeye,

I'm sorry to hear of your fellowship predicament & that this forum is the closest thing you have to a church.

Could I encourage you to "do the rounds" of churches in your town or what is a reasonable travelling distance for you. I'm sure that there will be a church that you can feel at home in or feel welcome in although it may take some perseverance on your part. Sometimes it takes a few months at a new church to pick up the vibe of the place & the friendliness of the congregation (plus the local theology!!!!)

From my own experience I had not fellowshipped regularly at my home church (or any other churches) for 18 months previous to April this year when God very clearly drew me back to my home church & to fellowshipping with other Christians (much to the relief of my wife I may add!!). Now I feel so blessed & refreshed as I am now on the preaching roster (which I thoroughly love doing), back to feeding on my Bible & back to enjoying the company of other Christians. I am still not happy with my level of prayer but am working on it.There is something about fellowshipping with other Christians on a regular basis that strengthens my Christian walk.

I joined this forum to refresh my Biblical knowledge by reading the posts & following the theological debates & then testing the comments against the scriptures and also to expand my range of Christian acquaintances.


God can do the same thing with you but it may take some patience & effort on your part!!

 

[childeye]

Hello Childeye,

I'm sorry to hear of your fellowship predicament & that this forum is the closest thing you have to a church.

Could I encourage you to "do the rounds" of churches in your town or what is a reasonable travelling distance for you. I'm sure that there will be a church that you can feel at home in or feel welcome in although it may take some perseverance on your part. Sometimes it takes a few months at a new church to pick up the vibe of the place & the friendliness of the congregation (plus the local theology!!!!)

From my own experience I had not fellowshipped regularly at my home church (or any other churches) for 18 months previous to April this year when God very clearly drew me back to my home church & to fellowshipping with other Christians (much to the relief of my wife I may add!!). Now I feel so blessed & refreshed as I am now on the preaching roster (which I thoroughly love doing), back to feeding on my Bible & back to enjoying the company of other Christians. I am still not happy with my level of prayer but am working on it.There is something about fellowshipping with other Christians on a regular basis that strengthens my Christian walk.

I joined this forum to refresh my Biblical knowledge by reading the posts & following the theological debates & then testing the comments against the scriptures and also to expand my range of Christian acquaintances.


God can do the same thing with you but it may take some patience & effort on your part!!

I appreciate your concern. I don't feel like God is moving me to do that yet. But I guess it wouldn't hurt to see who's out there. To me a church is a commitment and I am leary of who I commit to. I've seen too many political agendas in churches and quite frankly find them carnal, but I would like to talk about Jesus.