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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Grubal Muruch
Member
This is true. The ultimate perpetrator of sin, is man, and that is why Christ came to die. Therefore, we as a race of beings are responsible for Christ's death on the cross. For it was for us that He came. Thank God for His Grace toward us...
francisdesales
Member
A person cannot be saved by anything that they do alone without God. No one can obligate God based on what they did alone. Otherwise, it is boasting.
What part of this or Ephesians 2:8 or Romans 4:4 don't you understand?
SALVATION IS A GIFT, NOT A DEBT!
Now, once we get past this very easy conclusion and it takes hold in your heart, (that faith alone is nothing, useless - according to Scriptures) perhaps we could discuss how God and I come together to form the faith attributed to me that makes me righteous in His eyes, or my repentance, or my works of love, none of which earn salvation,none of which I can do without God (see Phil 2:12-13 and WHO is moving me to do good deeds, NOT FAITH!) but things that God expects from us, nonetheless.
In Christ, I can do all...
Regards
Very funny Theodore. I would like to address the point with you that there exist many lies and only one Truth. That truth being God and those lies trying to obscure the True Image of God. So when we say many voices this is what we are refering to; many false gods , idols, powers of darkness, etc...
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felix
Guest
Webb, I asked TruthSeeker in another thread to clarify if the faith he is referring is living or dead, but I haven't yet got an answer.
Actually and to be clear, I asked if you believed we are all guilty of the crucifixion of the Christ.
I think what you seem to be saying is Jesus proved the world of wickedness. However, since he now sits as intecessor and high priest through the sacrifice of his own self, I think we all benefit by this descending and ascending of His Word. The fact we see him sacrifice himself is an extreme turning the other cheek so to speak. That at least should temper a vindictive direction towards one another.
If I am not mistaken Jesus said he came to destroy the works of the devil. I believe he means that sin was initiated by Satan, who in hypocrisy is both temptor and accuser, and so also condemns those he tempted. The blood of Jesus therefore paid for the sins of man, but it is the accuser that demanded payment according to the law, and Jesus paid the price to protect us from an overzealous and merciless prosecutor. I am not saying we are not culpable for distrusting God, but I believe sin is born of iniquity and vanity. Both of these I count as ignorance now seeing the trustworthiness of God in the Christ.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Jesus came into the world to die ! Jesus Atonement on the cross was the ULTIMATE sacrifice for the sins of mankind. His sacrifice and shedding of blood (there is No remission of sin except by blood) benefited ALL who would receive God's gift of forgiveness and redemption. Man is held responsible since the beginning (Adam) Satan did the tempting, but man is held accountable for his choice to sin. We are born into sin and we will die in our sins if we do not receive God's Grace through Christ's sacrifice on the cross...
Well yes, I think I've said that except I am just saying it the way scripture puts it. Jesus says I come to destroy the works of the devil and as we know Satan is a liar and we trusted a liar before we ever knew what a liar is. I think how much we hold Adam and Eve culpable says more about us than it does about them.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Could you please rephrase what you said, I didn't catch your meaning ?
Jesus said "I come to destroy the works of the devil". He does not say I come to destroy the works of man. I am saying there are higher powers in work in man hence Jesus says, "you are of your Father the devil and his works you will do". This nature of the devil is in mankind doing Satan's works.
Satan is a liar and so manipulates men in their wills through subtle deception. So Jesus says,"the Truth shall set you free". This means we are enslaved to sin through falsehood and ignorance of the Truth.
So how much we hold Adam and Eve culpable says more about us than it does about them. Consequently Jesus said, "If you wish to escape judgment, don't judge. For whatever measure of judgment you use upon others God will use upon you". The merciful shall receive mercy.
Theodore A. Jones
Member
No. The crucifixion of Jesus has only consolidated sins into one unilateral accountable sin caused by bloodshed. If Jesus "paid for the sins of mankind" the only outcome of this hooka pipe idea of yours is mankind is universally saved. But as you admit in your above defense "We all stand guilty" after his crucifixion which he even confirms, note Jn. 16:8. What the crucifixion of Jesus has accomplished for God, and only him by the way, is perfecting the only Way you might escape from paying the penalty of eternal death if you have sense enough to use it. You don't owe me anything. But by Jesus crucifixion you do indeed owe God an apology or pay hell forever if you don't pay it.
Theodore A. Jones
Member
Sweety its the way you put words into phrases that is the tell.
If you want to become a professional mystic contact RIZM. They're good. Indeed very good.
I think we do owe God an apology. A very honest one so as to be of any value and of a contrite heart. And for this we must know what we did wrong. We should be deeply ashamed that we ever believed He would not have our best interests at heart. And this is why we were deceived in our innocence, otherwise we are saying we decide knowingly to count God as corrupt which is not truly being sorry but self condemning.
Actually, with all due respect, I do not see how there is any mystery to what I have rephrased for you. So I do not comprehend how your use of the term mystic is applicable.
Theodore A. Jones
Member
It is NOT what you've done wrong as the issue. It is what you will do wrong by law if you don't obey God this Way. I have to admit you are the last person on the face of this earth that I would have expected to make the statement you have made. Unbelieveable! And yes you, and me too, were deceived, but in no case is there the condititon of 'in our innocence'. For at the Lord's table even, this residual issue of guilt concerning the Lord's body is apparent in plain sight. We really don't have any excuse for a defense.
Once again I think you misinterpret what I say.
What I will do wrong I will do because I am burdened with flesh and in weakness to that flesh according to a carnal way and therefore an ungodly way of thinking. The law is not my advocate in this. However, since distrust is what preceded disobedience, it is our esteem of God that holds the key to obeying for we must know God's will and for that we must know God. Now when I see the Christ saying to the Pharisees that the one who has no sin should cast the first stone, in their desire to be obedient to the requirement of the law, they are not interpreting God's will correctly as Jesus points out. Love others as you would love yourself is being transgressed. Therefore I am for keeping the commandments as they ared good, but I do excuse those who transgress against me for I know it is not my will to transgress against God.
I am not sure to what statement you are refering.
We all take God for granted. This is a matter of circumstance since we are created and therefore ignorant in understanding. Every child born must learn their place in the order of things. Mercy and understanding is necessary, hence patience and longsuffering are virtues and attributes of God, they are not excuse conjuring... I am saying there is an excuse for those wrongs done in ignorance. I do not see any excuse for distrust of God. I believe the distrust sown by Satan was planted subconsciously as in subtlty because I see no reason why Adam and Eve would distrust God willingly and knowingly. Do You? If you do I'd like to hear it.
I don't see the blood of Christ as just a matter of guilt but also a matter of innocence. It is for some just a matter of guilt. A defiled conscience needs cleansing and the Christ provided that through two ways and hence he gathers on two sides of the cross. I would rather die in my sins as payment according to the law if I am indeed responsible, than crucify the innocent and only begotten son of God so I may live.
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Grubal Muruch
Member
Jesus was speaking to the Jews who rejected Him and were seeking to kill Him when He stated, "you are of your Father the devil and his works you will do." (Matthew 8) When Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden, they were told they could partake of any, "fruit from any tree except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." God allowed the snake (the devil) to exist in the garden. The devil deceived Eve and consequently Adam "choose" to sin.
The moment he sinned, their eyes were opened to both good and evil. They were consequently exiled from the garden along with the knowledge and propensity to do good or evil. Once the couple had children (Cain and Abel) Abel choose good and Cain choose evil. Good and evil choice's are always at are disposal. As we see, man is responsible for his choice between good and evil. Even from the beginning. Before we become, "Born again" we are enslaved to sin. And even when we choose good, the Bible states that his (mans) righteousness is as filthy rags.
Only after we are saved (Born again) and are indwelt/sealed by the Holy Spirit can a person bring forth good works/fruit...