Righteousness

[Grubal Muruch]

No. The crucifixion of Jesus has only consolidated sins into one unilateral accountable sin caused by bloodshed. If Jesus "paid for the sins of mankind" the only outcome of this hooka pipe idea of yours is mankind is universally saved. But as you admit in your above defense "We all stand guilty" after his crucifixion which he even confirms, note Jn. 16:8. What the crucifixion of Jesus has accomplished for God, and only him by the way, is perfecting the only Way you might escape from paying the penalty of eternal death if you have sense enough to use it. You don't owe me anything. But by Jesus crucifixion you do indeed owe God an apology or pay hell forever if you don't pay it.

It's true, we all stand guilty of sin, from Adam on. It's also true that, Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind. We must also come before God the Father and make confession of our sins, put our faith in Christ His Son as Lord and Savior, and ask for the Father to indwell and seal us with His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit places us in the body of Christ and we become "Spiritually Born again." We are now considered a "Child of God." We are then predestined to become conformed to His Son. We are considered "a new creation." We are Spiritually born and can now bring forth fruit/good works. We are forgiven of ALL our sins and God no longer holds us accountable for our sins. However, we are still in the flesh and able to "choose to sin." But if we do, God has the option to "discipline" us, as His child. Those who have been "Born again" have had their hearts turned towards God, so that when temptation to sin is present the true believers, guided by the Holy Spirit have the power within, to resist any temptation and have been given (according to the Bible) a way of escape. Unbelievers have no such advantage...

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;574521]Jesus was speaking to the Jews who rejected Him and were seeking to kill Him when He stated, "you are of your Father the devil and his works you will do."

If you are limiting Satan's influence to the Jews, I would point out Jesus said anyone who sins is a slave of sin. This can only be taken as pertaining to all men. The fact he was talking to Jews about there Father being Satan was to controvert their assertion they were free men born of Abraham. That is the context.

(Matthew 8) When Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden, they were told they could partake of any, "fruit from any tree except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." God allowed the snake (the devil) to exist in the garden. The devil deceived Eve and consequently Adam "choose" to sin.

Yes I agree this is what scripture says.

The moment he sinned, their eyes were opened to both good and evil. They were consequently exiled from the garden along with the knowledge and propensity to do good or evil.

I don't think it is ascertainable that they were unable to do good before the knowledge of good and evil had "opened" their eyes. It is not true that good cannot exist without evil. Therefore I see adulteration of innocence.

Once the couple had children (Cain and Abel) Abel choose good and Cain choose evil.

Cain was of a carnal mind and Abel wasn't. Cains offering was more out of concern for looking good than pleasing God as is evidenced by his jealousy. He therefore was deceived in his image of god. He could not choose otherwise.

Good and evil choice's are always at are disposal. As we see, man is responsible for his choice between good and evil.

It doesn't matter that the oppertunity to do good and evil exist which makes the knowledge of good and evil worthless and also choice. Why? Because it is a matter of being righteous on the inside not the outside. Hence Jesus says to clean the inside of the cup so the outside will be clean. Righteous men do good things because they are righteous not because they are free to choose and sometimes choose to do good if they by chance volunteer. Love is a Spirit not a deliberation of human reason according to the knowledge of good and evil.

Even from the beginning. Before we become, "Born again" we are enslaved to sin. And even when we choose good, the Bible states that his (mans) righteousness is as filthy rags.

Exactly, human effort of will does not bring forth true righteousness.

Only after we are saved (Born again) and are indwelt/sealed by the Holy Spirit can a person bring forth good works/fruit...

Exactly, we agree again. Righteousness comes by God's Spirit renewing us and He does this by revealing Himself hence we are born of His Spirit by believing in Jesus as the Christ. The Image of God one holds makes all the difference.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

If you are limiting Satan's influence to the Jews, I would point out Jesus said anyone who sins is a slave of sin. This can only be taken as pertaining to all men. The fact he was talking to Jews about there Father being Satan was to controvert their assertion they were free men born of Abraham. That is the context.

Yes I agree this is what scripture says.

I don't think it is ascertainable that they were unable to do good before the knowledge of good and evil had "opened" their eyes. It is not true that good cannot exist without evil. Therefore I see adulteration of innocence.

Cain was of a carnal mind and Abel wasn't. Cains offering was more out of concern for looking good than pleasing God as is evidenced by his jealousy. He therefore was deceived in his image of god. He could not choose otherwise.

It doesn't matter that the oppertunity to do good and evil exist which makes the knowledge of good and evil worthless and also choice. Why? Because it is a matter of being righteous on the inside not the outside. Hence Jesus says to clean the inside of the cup so the outside will be clean. Righteous men do good things because they are righteous not because they are free to choose and sometimes choose to do good if they by chance volunteer. Love is a Spirit not a deliberation of human reason according to the knowledge of good and evil.


Exactly, human effort of will does not bring forth true righteousness.

Exactly, we agree again. Righteousness comes by God's Spirit renewing us and He does this by revealing Himself hence we are born of His Spirit by believing in Jesus as the Christ. The Image of God one holds makes all the difference.

I agree with you, Satan influences ALL people to sin. I was only using Matthew as a context. But your right there. Adam and Eve were living in a, "state of purity" before coming into contact with the devil. The proof of that is, they had yet to sin and partake of the tree that could give them the ability to differentiate between good and evil. Consequently Eve was deceived and Adam sinned. Their eyes were opened and they were able to see they were naked. They, at that time had the "knowledge of good and evil."

Can good exist without evil? From the beginning (in the garden) evil was present, in the person of the devil. God's creation was good, the Bible states that. (In Genesis.)

 

[childeye]

I agree with you, Satan influences ALL people to sin. I was only using Matthew as a context. But your right there. Adam and Eve were living in a, "state of purity" before coming into contact with the devil. The proof of that is, they had yet to sin and partake of the tree that could give them the ability to differentiate between good and evil. Consequently Eve was deceived and Adam sinned. Their eyes were opened and they were able to see they were naked. They, at that time had the "knowledge of good and evil."

Can good exist without evil? From the beginning (in the garden) evil was present, in the person of the devil. God's creation was good, the Bible states that. (In Genesis.)

Of course good exists without evil and to be clear I will define good as Love and the absence of Love as evil. God is eternal Light and darkness is allowed to exist presently only because it is useful for making apparant the good for the sake of the ignorant. That is why we are here, to learn what it is we take for granted when we do not acknowledge God as the goodness in man and the consequences of not having Love. That is why deception is a major factor working in the minds of men who think they choose to be good or evil.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Of course good exists without evil and to be clear I will define good as Love and the absence of Love as evil. God is eternal Light and darkness is allowed to exist presently only because it is useful for making apparant the good for the sake of the ignorant. That is why we are here, to learn what it is we take for granted when we do not acknowledge God as the goodness in man and the consequences of not having Love. That is why deception is a major factor working in the minds of men who think they choose to be good or evil.

Eve, according to Scripture, was deceived by the serpent, whereas, Adam was not deceived, and had FULL clarity on his decision to, choose to sin. When one is "deceived" they are inherently, caught up in a, "phantom thought process," and are lead by faulty reasoning based on that UNTRUTH. Decisions and strategy's are implemented based upon that particular deception. Outcomes can never be positive (good) when the criteria used is based upon a faulty premise. In the case of the, born Again Christian, he has the added luxury of clear thought, lead and supported by the presence of the Spirit within. The knowledge of good and evil presented itself, following the chosen sin of Adam, when their eyes (Adam and Eves) were opened to the reality of both, good and evil.

There's a cult out there that has predicted the rapture and end of the world on a number of occasions. Their leader uses numerology, and alters Scripture, turning it into personalized parabolic and heretical false teachings. Now, he and his followers are deceived into believing these heresies, and go about trying to proclaim that these deceptions are Biblical. They "believe" they are preaching truth. And that God has opened their spiritual eyes in these last days, and made them "privy" to information previously hidden from man. In their own twisted psyches they believe their spreading the truth of God's word. But in reality, they are deceived by false doctrine...

 

[childeye]

Eve, according to Scripture, was deceived by the serpent, whereas, Adam was not deceived, and had FULL clarity on his decision to, choose to sin. When one is "deceived" they are inherently, caught up in a, "phantom thought process," and are lead by faulty reasoning based on that UNTRUTH. Decisions and strategy's are implemented based upon that particular deception. Outcomes can never be positive (good) when the criteria used is based upon a faulty premise. In the case of the, born Again Christian, he has the added luxury of clear thought, lead and supported by the presence of the Spirit within. The knowledge of good and evil presented itself, following the chosen sin of Adam, when their eyes (Adam and Eves) were opened to the reality of both, good and evil.

There's a cult out there that has predicted the rapture and end of the world on a number of occasions. Their leader uses numerology, and alters Scripture, turning it into personalized parabolic and heretical false teachings. Now, he and his followers are deceived into believing these heresies, and go about trying to proclaim that these deceptions are Biblical. They "believe" they are preaching truth. And that God has opened their spiritual eyes in these last days, and made them "privy" to information previously hidden from man. In their own twisted psyches they believe their spreading the truth of God's word. But in reality, they are deceived by false doctrine...

I think you and I would agree that the deceived are reasoning upon a false premise of some sort. I think you and I would agree that some Truth is missing. I think you and I would agree that the Holy Spirit of Truth testifies to God and His Christ. Therefore Godly Truth is about knowing Him as in His person and integrity of character, that He is ever trustworthy and above reproach.

While scripture does say Adam was not deceived , it was never intended to imply Adam knew what he was doing. The context of what Paul is saying is being misapplied if it is being applied to mean Adam knew and has no excuse. The proof of that, is if Paul was meaning Adam knew what he was doing, he would be teaching that the one who knowingly and wantonly betrayed God and has no excuse, should be in charge over the one who was deceived into betraying God and is excusable.

The rush to blame Adam is self condemnation. We have no evidence to suggest we would have fared better than Adam given the same circumstances. Humility demands we at least should count ourselves equal since we do not know nor can we know. I cannot see any reason why Adam would have to distrust God so it is clear he was mistaken in trusting Eves persuading him to eat. But being that he was persuaded by one who was deceived he himself was deceived just not in the same manner as Eve which was Pauls point.

I do not believe I can deny Christ. For at this time I cannot choose to believe that a man who would die to save me would be untrustworthy. Adam did not have this same advantage. If I now say Adam knowingly betrayed God with a truly free and uncoerced choice in the matter, I am also saying so could I and so would I.

Case in point; God said Job was an upright servant. But Satan, imagining he knew better than God in an iniquity of vanity, said Job would curse God if only God would remove the hedge that protected Job and He took all his possesions that God had blessed him with. Yet Job said, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away and would not curse God. Then Satan said touch Jobs flesh and he will surely curse you yet Job said, we accept good from God shall we not accept evil and would not curse God. This really says more about Satan than it does about Job.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I think you and I would agree that the deceived are reasoning upon a false premise of some sort. I think you and I would agree that some Truth is missing. I think you and I would agree that the Holy Spirit of Truth testifies to God and His Christ. Therefore Godly Truth is about knowing Him as in His person and integrity of character, that He is ever trustworthy and above reproach.

While scripture does say Adam was not deceived , it was never intended to imply Adam knew what he was doing. The context of what Paul is saying is being misapplied if it is being applied to mean Adam knew and has no excuse. The proof of that, is if Paul was meaning Adam knew what he was doing, he would be teaching that the one who knowingly and wantonly betrayed God and has no excuse, should be in charge over the one who was deceived into betraying God and is excusable.

The rush to blame Adam is self condemnation. We have no evidence to suggest we would have fared better than Adam given the same circumstances. Humility demands we at least should count ourselves equal since we do not know nor can we know. I cannot see any reason why Adam would have to distrust God so it is clear he was mistaken in trusting Eves persuading him to eat. But being that he was persuaded by one who was deceived he himself was deceived just not in the same manner as Eve which was Pauls point.

I do not believe I can deny Christ. For at this time I cannot choose to believe that a man who would die to save me would be untrustworthy. Adam did not have this same advantage. If I now say Adam knowingly betrayed God with a truly free and uncoerced choice in the matter, I am also saying so could I and so would I.

First of all, according to the Bible account, Adam and Eve were together when the serpent was "spinning the truth to his advantage." Eve told the devil that God said, "the day you eat of that particular tree, they would surely die."
the devil retorted, "Surely you won't die, and added that, the couple would have their eyes opened to good and evil and become wise, and be as God."

The devil deceived Eve into believing God was not speaking truth as to the outcome of their disobedience if they choose that route. Secondly the devil enticed both Adam and Eve with the temptation of, gaining the knowledge of the difference between good and evil and of them becoming wise and like God. Adam had communication with God, one on one. God created Adam with an intellect, as is proven by the fact, God gave the responsibility of naming the different animals, birds of the air, etc. Also God gave Adam the chore of tending to the garden. So there's NO evidence that Adam was created without intellect/understanding, and ability to fully understand orders given by God and obey.

Adam was created with his full capacity to comprehend and obey. He didn't have the knowledge of good and evil, but he did have ALL his intellectual faculties. God instructed and warned both, not to eat of that particular tree. Eve was indeed deceived of the devil but Adam, KNOWING they were not to eat of that tree, Chose to be disobey God.
Now we can speculate on the reason Adam decided to disobey God. Perhaps he was enthralled with the idea of gaining wisdom, being like God, or just having the knowledge of good and evil. All of these temptations were FALSE outcomes the devil tempted Adam an Eve with. God only said, they would die if they chose to eat of that tree, the devil suggested the other possibilities.

You say, "the rush to blame Adam is self condemnation." Adam was (at the time) judged by God Himself, due to the fact He held Adam accountable for disobedience (sin) After all, like I said previously, God created man with full intellectual abilities, and the ability to listen,understand,and be obedient. Man in spite of his walk with God decided to disobey and he suffered the consequence of his error...

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;574860]

Adam was created with his full capacity to comprehend and obey. He didn't have the knowledge of good and evil, but he did have ALL his intellectual faculties. God instructed and warned both, not to eat of that particular tree.

The issue is faith or trust, so regardless of having mental faculties men did not esteem God as God.

KNOWING they were not to eat of that tree, Chose to be disobey God.

Yes but they did not know why to trust God which supercedes their decision to disobey. I can't tell you how many times my children were corrected before they trusted my commandments because they trusted me, and more importantly my Love for them.

due to the fact He held Adam accountable for disobedience (sin) After all, like I said previously, God created man with full intellectual abilities, and the ability to listen,understand,and be obedient.

Your statement here indicates you equate a freewill with the ability to choose. I presume then that you believe all choices are made freely. Of course I knew this when I first ever read one of your posts. We do not have the same concept of what a freewill is.

Now we can speculate on the reason Adam decided to disobey God. Perhaps he was enthralled with the idea of gaining wisdom, being like God, or just having the knowledge of good and evil. All of these temptations were FALSE outcomes the devil tempted Adam an Eve with.

That is what we do, speculate, and we reveal ourselves in the process even as we judge Adam. I think the key thing here is Adam in the end distrusted God and lost his freewill in the process, or shall I say compromised his freewill. For the only freewill is the one that Trusts God and not those voices that suggest not to trust God. In all Truth, Adam had a freewill when he was in trust of God but doubted himself in the process and that is why he surrendered authority to someone else. That is what I believe. He was made unconfident by the assertions of the devil and the woman.

You say, "the rush to blame Adam is self condemnation."

Yes I do.

Adam was (at the time) judged by God Himself,

God is above Adam we aren't, still God did not condemn Adam but was in grief for what men were now to suffer. For us to judge in condemnation is hypocrisy for we are all Adam before the Christ is received. Even Christ himself did not judge Adam in condemnation but took his place within him suffering the sins of mankind although he himself was without sin. Only Satan accuses. Therefore Satan is in us when we condemn others as if we were ever confident in ourselves and solidified in the knowledge of God. We all have sinned.

Man in spite of his walk with God decided to disobey and he suffered the consequence of his error...

Definition of SPITE. 1: petty ill will or hatred with the disposition to irritate, annoy, or thwart . 2: an instance of spite — in spite of: in defiance or contempt ...

With all due respect, I do not think you fully realize what you have said using the phrase "in spite". I maintain it is ignorance, for we may have known God when we walked with Him but we did not know the value of knowing Him. The prodigal son is an excellent lesson given by our Lord. Please note that the Father ran to greet the contrite son and threw His arms around him. He did not accuse him and condemn him. We condemn ourselves even as we condemn others.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The issue is faith or trust, so regardless of having mental faculties men did not esteem God as God.

Yes but they did not know why to trust God which supercedes their decision to disobey. I can't tell you how many times my children were corrected before they trusted my commandments because they trusted me, and more importantly my Love for them.

Your statement here indicates you equate a freewill with the ability to choose. I presume then that you believe all choices are made freely. Of course I knew this when I first ever read one of your posts. We do not have the same concept of what a freewill is.

That is what we do, speculate, and we reveal ourselves in the process even as we judge Adam. I think the key thing here is Adam in the end distrusted God and lost his freewill in the process, or shall I say compromised his freewill. For the only freewill is the one that Trusts God and not those voices that suggest not to trust God. In all Truth, Adam had a freewill when he was in trust of God but doubted himself in the process and that is why he surrendered authority to someone else. That is what I believe. He was made unconfident by the assertions of the devil and the woman.


Yes I do.

God is above Adam we aren't, still God did not condemn Adam but was in grief for what men were now to suffer. For us to judge in condemnation is hypocrisy for we are all Adam before the Christ is received. Even Christ himself did not judge Adam in condemnation but took his place within him suffering the sins of mankind although he himself was without sin. Only Satan accuses. Therefore Satan is in us when we condemn others as if we were ever confident in ourselves and solidified in the knowledge of God. We all have sinned.


Definition of SPITE. 1: petty ill will or hatred with the disposition to irritate, annoy, or thwart . 2: an instance of spite — in spite of: in defiance or contempt ...

With all due respect, I do not think you fully realize what you have said using the phrase "in spite". I maintain it is ignorance, for we may have known God when we walked with Him but we did not know the value of knowing Him. The prodigal son is an excellent lesson given by our Lord.

Saying that, "regardless of having mental faculties men did not esteem God as God." is more of a presumptive analyses of the situation. Adam was in direct contact with his Creator and thus privy to a more personal relationship. God Himself found Adam, guilty of the sin of disobedience so to try and, "rationalize" and make excuses for man, is a fruitless attempt to disregard the perfection of our creator.

God, "knew" His creation inside and out and was in a unique position of judging the heart and mind of His first human creation. To make excuses and to use "human" intellect to try and understand the why's and wherefores of God's decision, (to judge) is to assume, we as mere creations are in a position to judge the actions of Almighty God.

Before Spiritual regeneration, man is free to choose. He was created with the ability to choose. After being "Born Again Spiritually," he is still able to choose, but he is now influenced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. At NO point did Adam lose his free will, he ultimately chose to sin of his "freewill." It's not that, Adam distrusted God, it's more than likely Adam was intrigued and tempted by the opportunity of gaining more knowledge,knowing the difference between good and evil, more wisdom, and the chance of, being like God. Remember the devil used these in his "deception's." The devil himself wanted to be as God and rebelled, and was cast out of Heaven with a third of the angels...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Definition of SPITE. 1: petty ill will or hatred with the disposition to irritate, annoy, or thwart . 2: an instance of spite — in spite of: in defiance or contempt ...

You state: "Your statement here indicates you equate a freewill with the ability to choose. I presume then that you believe all choices are made freely." Freewill IS the ability to choose. And with freewill your choices are made freely.

You state: "God did not condemn Adam." God DID condemn Adam. He (God) removed Adam and Eve from the garden and made a judgement that Eve, would bear children in pain, and Adam would have to till the ground. And from then on physical death was ordered. So yes, God did condemn (judge) Adam and Eve for their sin.

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;574922]Saying that, "regardless of having mental faculties men did not esteem God as God." is more of a presumptive analyses of the situation. Adam was in direct contact with his Creator and thus privy to a more personal relationship. God Himself found Adam, guilty of the sin of disobedience so to try and, "rationalize" and make excuses for man, is a fruitless attempt to disregard the perfection of our creator.

On the contrary, since I am saying man did not esteem God as God, I am not excusing it so as to imply it is okay that man does so. I am seeking to properly assess the mistake so that correction may be made and security of proper conviction be apprehended. To do so I am using the teachings of the first begotten who is the only one to really know the Father, for this is what it means to be begotten. The Prodigal son knew the Father and the Fathers house but did not know outside the Fathers house wherein he imagined greater things in vanity. So I consider how I was privy to a very personal relationship with my parents but yet I never really esteemed them properly till I became a parent. Regarding Adam, yes I excuse him and you may be right about it being somewhat presumptive but so also is it if we accuse him.

God, "knew" His creation inside and out and was in a unique position of judging the heart and mind of His first human creation. To make excuses and to use "human" intellect to try and understand the why's and wherefores of God's decision, (to judge) is to assume, we as mere creations are in a position to judge the actions of Almighty God.

I know the point you are making. I don't judge Him for who can be God's judge and condemn? But I must presume in some manner to know Him and judge what He would have me do everytime I define right and wrong. There is no way around this. The very reason I believe Jesus is the Christ, is because he submitted to the cross and yet said forgive them they know not what they do. To understand why he rationalized and made excuses for man is how I discovered the perfection of our Creator.

You make a good point here about God knowing His creation wherein there is no position we can claim we know better, and in this I agree with you 100% about judging God. This is the problem however, Adam's circumstance is about judging God's Character, for this is exactly the position Adam was put in by the circumstances in the garden. He was forced to judge God and it is plausible to assume he was intimidated by a creature that was much older and ancient and cunning and much higher in station under God than himself. Or rather through the woman who he was afraid to look stupid to and whose esteem of him was valued obviously. For I don't think he cared what the serpent thought of him. After all Adam had not experienced what was outside the garden, nor ever been distanced from God, and had no wisdom concerning this to be able to judge correctly. It is not even ascertainable if he had ever even thought about what is trust.

Before Spiritual regeneration, man is free to choose. He was created with the ability to choose. After being "Born Again Spiritually," he is still able to choose, but he is now influenced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. At NO point did Adam lose his free will, he ultimately chose to sin of his "freewill."

This is where I cannot see freewill existing. You say man is free to choose before spiritual regeneration and you are no doubt refering to the fact he has a brain that deliberates. But moraly speaking he cannot choose to be wise nor be knowledgable or else he would not need the Holy Spirit of Truth and he would not need spiritual regeneration which comes through revelation of Truth. The carnal mind cannot be subject to God and is a slave to sin without any hope of escape without receiving the Truth that sets one free as Jesus said. If man has a freewill there is no need for Jesus to die on the cross.

It's not that, Adam distrusted God, it's more than likely Adam was intrigued and tempted by the opportunity of gaining more knowledge,knowing the difference between good and evil, more wisdom, and the chance of, being like God. Remember the devil used these in his "deception's." The devil himself wanted to be as God and rebelled, and was cast out of Heaven with a third of the angels...

This is twenty twenty Hindsight. Yes Eve was tempted by the prospect of being like God in having more knowledge. That is not the subtlty however. Underlying the prospect of what they imagined they might gain, He and she subconsciously must accept a notion that in some degree God was not looking out for their best interests in telling them not to eat. They distrusted God in some degree upon eating. This was the sin, they put faith into a false image of god. They were tricked into trying to fix what was not broken. They are guilty even as we are.

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;575025]You state: "Your statement here indicates you equate a freewill with the ability to choose. I presume then that you believe all choices are made freely." Freewill IS the ability to choose. And with freewill your choices are made freely.

Yes I understand you are claiming freewill is the ability to choose. I do not disagree that men have been given this ability. However when said such choices are freely made I cannot concur for such ability does not automatically conclude that there are no higher spiritual powers or even physical limitations that neither restrain or compel an individuals choices. I cannot agree with your definition of freewill therefore as it is regarded as an absolute. In other words I believe the Spirit of Christ compels people to Love others in a way that the carnal mind would not find reasonable even as this Holy Spirit is from above and we are below. Without this Godly Love, we would be compelled by only carnal impulse serving a selfish purpose in our choices based on a carnal understanding.

The fool therefore is limited in his choice by his ignorance and does not possess the capability to choose wisely as the option is not available. As such there are conditions that precede man that are not in his control that will determine his course. Science has already proven that mental deliberation does not constitute a freewill but rather the character of the person does supercede which way one deliberates. The fact we must be reborn according to scripture also concurs. May I ask what is it I say that troubles you concerning this?

You state: "God did not condemn Adam." God DID condemn Adam. He (God) removed Adam and Eve from the garden and made a judgement that Eve, would bear children in pain, and Adam would have to till the ground. And from then on physical death was ordered. So yes, God did condemn (judge) Adam and Eve for their sin.

Actually no, God did not condemn them, they got exactly what God said would happen to them if they ate. The reason they were kept from the tree of Life and dealt hardship was because they now had to learn the hard way. As I said, they took God for granted even as we take our parents for granted and some children must learn the hard way. It hurt God to see us go that route more than we probably know. When I read the prodigal son, it's all there. The Father welcomed back the repentant son with open arms, not condemnation, nor bitterness over wanton disobedience. He ordered a feast and gave him the best coat in celebration and the shepherd rejoices over the one lost sheep more than over all the rest. Repentance is seeing the Truth and coming to obedience with a contrite heart. It cannot be done therefore by man's prerogative for where would the contrite heart come from?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

On the contrary, since I am saying man did not esteem God as God, I am not excusing it so as to imply it is okay that man does so. I am seeking to properly assess the mistake so that correction may be made and security of proper conviction be apprehended. To do so I am using the teachings of the first begotten who is the only one to really know the Father, for this is what it means to be begotten. The Prodigal son knew the Father and the Fathers house but did not know outside the Fathers house wherein he imagined greater things in vanity. So I consider how I was privy to a very personal relationship with my parents but yet I never really esteemed them properly till I became a parent. Regarding Adam, yes I excuse him and you may be right about it being somewhat presumptive but so also is it if we accuse him.



I know the point you are making. I don't judge Him for who can be God's judge and condemn? But I must presume in some manner to know Him and judge what He would have me do everytime I define right and wrong. There is no way around this. The very reason I believe Jesus is the Christ, is because he submitted to the cross and yet said forgive them they know not what they do. To understand why he rationalized and made excuses for man is how I discovered the perfection of our Creator.

You make a good point here about God knowing His creation wherein there is no position we can claim we know better, and in this I agree with you 100% about judging God. This is the problem however, Adam's circumstance is about judging God's Character, for this is exactly the position Adam was put in by the circumstances in the garden. He was forced to judge God and it is plausible to assume he was intimidated by a creature that was much older and ancient and cunning and much higher in station under God than himself. Or rather through the woman who he was afraid to look stupid to and whose esteem of him was valued obviously. For I don't think he cared what the serpent thought of him. After all Adam had not experienced what was outside the garden, nor ever been distanced from God, and had no wisdom concerning this to be able to judge correctly. It is not even ascertainable if he had ever even thought about what is trust.


This is where I cannot see freewill existing. You say man is free to choose before spiritual regeneration and you are no doubt refering to the fact he has a brain that deliberates. But moraly speaking he cannot choose to be wise nor be knowledgable or else he would not need the Holy Spirit of Truth and he would not need spiritual regeneration which comes through revelation of Truth. The carnal mind cannot be subject to God and is a slave to sin without any hope of escape without receiving the Truth that sets one free as Jesus said. If man has a freewill there is no need for Jesus to die on the cross.



This is twenty twenty Hindsight. Yes Eve was tempted by the prospect of being like God in having more knowledge. That is not the subtlty however. Underlying the prospect of what they imagined they might gain, He and she subconsciously must accept a notion that in some degree God was not looking out for their best interests in telling them not to eat. They distrusted God in some degree upon eating. This was the sin, they put faith into a false image of god. They were tricked into trying to fix what was not broken. They are guilty even as we are.

To take a stance that Adam, "did not esteem God, as God," is presumptuous at best. We don't have a time element to follow between the initial creation and the exact moment that Adam chose to sin. We don't know how long Adam had fellowship with his creator, so were not privy to, if Adam reasoned God to be God. It may have been year's, we don't no the timeline.

I don't know where you get the idea that, Adam to "distrusted" God. After all, Adam had to realize that God was his creator. It's a far reach to assume, one way or the other, that Adam had any reason to "distrust" God, due to the fact, Adam did not have the "knowledge of good and evil at that point, so how could he assume God had done ANYTHING in an untrustworthy manner. He, (Adam) not having the critical thinking ability to assume God was deceiving in any way, due to the fact Adam didn't have that ability to discern.

We see the outcome of Adam's sin, being exiled from the garden etc,. In spite of Adams ignorance he was still held accountable for his decision and we know, God IS perfect in His judgments. Christ said, " Father forgive them for they know not what they do." But it was the Atonement (shedding of blood) that took away the sins of mankind. That was the ACTION that took place in order for us to be saved. (Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins) Mankind stands guilty of his sins before God and if they reject God's Grace then they'll spend eternity away from Him.

Ignorance is no excuse when it comes to sinning. If you go against one law your guilty of breaking the rest...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

was God's

Yes I understand you are claiming freewill is the ability to choose. I do not disagree that men have been given this ability. However when said such choices are freely made I cannot concur for such ability does not automatically conclude that there are no higher spiritual powers or even physical limitations that neither restrain or compel an individuals choices. I cannot agree with your definition of freewill therefore as it is regarded as an absolute. In other words I believe the Spirit of Christ compels people to Love others in a way that the carnal mind would not find reasonable even as this Holy Spirit is from above and we are below. Without this Godly Love, we would be compelled by only carnal impulse serving a selfish purpose in our choices based on a carnal understanding.

The fool therefore is limited in his choice by his ignorance and does not possess the capability to choose wisely as the option is not available. As such there are conditions that precede man that are not in his control that will determine his course. Science has already proven that mental deliberation does not constitute a freewill but rather the character of the person does supercede which way one deliberates. The fact we must be reborn according to scripture also concurs. May I ask what is it I say that troubles you concerning this?

Actually no, God did not condemn them, they got exactly what God said would happen to them if they ate. The reason they were kept from the tree of Life and dealt hardship was because they now had to learn the hard way. As I said, they took God for granted even as we take our parents for granted and some children must learn the hard way. It hurt God to see us go that route more than we probably know. When I read the prodigal son, it's all there. The Father welcomed back the repentant son with open arms, not condemnation, nor bitterness over wanton disobedience. He ordered a feast and gave him the best coat in celebration and the shepherd rejoices over the one lost sheep more than over all the rest. Repentance is seeing the Truth and coming to obedience with a contrite heart. It cannot be done therefore by man's prerogative for where would the contrite heart come from?

There is one that, "compels" us (while we are in our carnal state) and that is, The Holy Spirit. The Spirit convicts and seeks to speak to our hearts (throughout our lifetime) We come to the Father through Jesus His Son. Not all will receive God's Grace, some will reject it. But the Spirit strives with man. We have a "freewill" to receive or reject God's Grace, But (before) being "Born again Spiritually" we cannot bring forth good fruit/works because the Word states, "Our righteousness's are as filthy rags." (before regeneration) Only the Spirit's presents within us can bring forth fruit/good works. So before being saved, we are limited to our carnality.

You stated, "Science has already proven that mental deliberation does not constitute a freewill but rather the character of the person does supercede which way one deliberates." What is the "character" of a carnal man sold unto sin? Were ALL under that umbrella before we come to Christ. The key factor for the transition between the two is, the work of the Holy Spirit. Some reject Him, some except His urging's.

You said, " In other words I believe the Spirit of Christ compels people to Love others in a way that the carnal mind would not find reasonable even as this Holy Spirit is from above and we are below. Without this Godly Love, we would be compelled by only carnal impulse serving a selfish purpose in our choices based on a carnal understanding." This is true. But in order to get from A to B we must become "Born again Spiritually." Until you HAVE the Spirit, you will follow your carnal ways.

You said,"Actually no, God did not condemn them, they got exactly what God said would happen to them if they ate. That's true, but, they got what God said would happen to them, because that, was God's, "preordained" judgement/condemnation upon them. You said, " The reason they were kept from the tree of Life and dealt hardship was because they now had to learn the hard way. No, the reason was, their sin.

 

[childeye]

To take a stance that Adam, "did not esteem God, as God," is presumptuous at best. We don't have a time element to follow between the initial creation and the exact moment that Adam chose to sin. We don't know how long Adam had fellowship with his creator, so were not privy to, if Adam reasoned God to be God. It may have been year's, we don't no the timeline.

I don't know where you get the idea that, Adam to "distrusted" God. After all, Adam had to realize that God was his creator. It's a far reach to assume, one way or the other, that Adam had any reason to "distrust" God, due to the fact, Adam did not have the "knowledge of good and evil at that point, so how could he assume God had done ANYTHING in an untrustworthy manner. He, (Adam) not having the critical thinking ability to assume God was deceiving in any way, due to the fact Adam didn't have that ability to discern.

We see the outcome of Adam's sin, being exiled from the garden etc,. In spite of Adams ignorance he was still held accountable for his decision and we know, God IS perfect in His judgments. Christ said, " Father forgive them for they know not what they do." But it was the Atonement (shedding of blood) that took away the sins of mankind. That was the ACTION that took place in order for us to be saved. (Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins) Mankind stands guilty of his sins before God and if they reject God's Grace then they'll spend eternity away from Him.

Ignorance is no excuse when it comes to sinning. If you go against one law your guilty of breaking the rest...

I don't disagree with anything you said here. It aligns with scripture. We are accountable for what we do but there are mitigating circumstances including blindness as according to Jesus when he said to the Pharisees, had you said we are blind you would have no sin, but because you say we see, your sin remains.

 

[childeye]

Re: was God's

There is one that, "compels" us (while we are in our carnal state) and that is, The Holy Spirit. The Spirit convicts and seeks to speak to our hearts (throughout our lifetime) We come to the Father through Jesus His Son. Not all will receive God's Grace, some will reject it. But the Spirit strives with man. We have a "freewill" to receive or reject God's Grace, But (before) being "Born again Spiritually" we cannot bring forth good fruit/works because the Word states, "Our righteousness's are as filthy rags." (before regeneration) Only the Spirit's presents within us can bring forth fruit/good works. So before being saved, we are limited to our carnality.

You stated, "Science has already proven that mental deliberation does not constitute a freewill but rather the character of the person does supercede which way one deliberates." What is the "character" of a carnal man sold unto sin? Were ALL under that umbrella before we come to Christ. The key factor for the transition between the two is, the work of the Holy Spirit. Some reject Him, some except His urging's.

You said, " In other words I believe the Spirit of Christ compels people to Love others in a way that the carnal mind would not find reasonable even as this Holy Spirit is from above and we are below. Without this Godly Love, we would be compelled by only carnal impulse serving a selfish purpose in our choices based on a carnal understanding." This is true. But in order to get from A to B we must become "Born again Spiritually." Until you HAVE the Spirit, you will follow your carnal ways.

You said,"Actually no, God did not condemn them, they got exactly what God said would happen to them if they ate. That's true, but, they got what God said would happen to them, because that, was God's, "preordained" judgement/condemnation upon them. You said, " The reason they were kept from the tree of Life and dealt hardship was because they now had to learn the hard way. No, the reason was, their sin.

I agree with everything again except I would say we are arguing semantics when you say it is because of sin we were kept from the tree of life. To me I get the impression they could not be allowed to have eternal life without first knowing the value of such a gift, which is why we toil for our bread and bring forth children in suffering. Let me just say about judging, I would rather err on the side of mercy and be found too merciful than err on the side of contempt and be found merciless. That is why I lean towards giving the benefit of the doubt. I do not see condemnation from God, I see the consequences of distrusting God.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I don't disagree with anything you said here. It aligns with scripture. We are accountable for what we do but there are mitigating circumstances including blindness as according to Jesus when he said to the Pharisees, had you said we are blind you would have no sin, but because you say we see, your sin remains.

h

Whether we are,consciously aware of any given sin or not, we still stand guilty. Remember, if we break even one of the laws, we are guilty of breaking them all...As a Christian however, we live under Grace...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Re: was God's

I agree with everything again except I would say we are arguing semantics when you say it is because of sin we were kept from the tree of life. To me I get the impression they could not be allowed to have eternal life without first knowing the value of such a gift, which is why we toil for our bread and bring forth children in suffering. Let me just say about judging, I would rather err on the side of mercy and be found too merciful than err on the side of contempt and be found merciless. That is why I lean towards giving the benefit of the doubt. I do not see condemnation from God, I see the consequences of distrusting God.

You must remember however, God warned Adam and Eve that if they ate of that tree,they would surely die. And that was the outcome for being disobedient. It was God who created that rule, and eventually enforced it, because of their disobedience. We reap what we sow remember? Once they had sinned and been removed from the garden, Adam's punishment was, he had to toil the ground, that was his punishment, not a teaching tool. Eve on the other hand would bear children with great discomfort. That was her punishment. Also they would both see, Physical death. (For the wages of sin is death.)

God must judge sin and a price must be paid. (For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.) God is perfect and expects perfection. Man is not perfect, but Christ was, and is...

 

[childeye]

Re: was God's

You must remember however, God warned Adam and Eve that if they ate of that tree,they would surely die. And that was the outcome for being disobedient. It was God who created that rule, and eventually enforced it, because of their disobedience. We reap what we sow remember? Once they had sinned and been removed from the garden, Adam's punishment was, he had to toil the ground, that was his punishment, not a teaching tool. Eve on the other hand would bear children with great discomfort. That was her punishment. Also they would both see, Physical death. (For the wages of sin is death.)

God must judge sin and a price must be paid. (For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.) God is perfect and expects perfection. Man is not perfect, but Christ was, and is...

Okay I see where you are coming from and must respectfully disagree. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was a death trap for carnal beings in my view. It would be like saying don't touch the fire or you'll get burned. There is an instruction from God meant to protect us. I even believe the toil we experience and the suffering through birth are a fall from grace, a consequence of what was lost in the fall. God has made many stations under Him all the way to hell. The Love of God and therefore the praise of God cannot be founded upon fear of what He will do to you if you disobey Him. Nonetheless there are those that believe this and are still under temptation. I would wonder what you think it means to be under grace. For to be under grace to me means we acknowledge that without God there is no goodness in us.

Your view seems to say that the fear of punishment is the reason to be good. No doubt it is a valid reason but self serving and carnal and not of faith. This is an Old Testament point of view since we now know righteousness is not imparted through the doing of commandments.

 

[childeye]

h

Whether we are,consciously aware of any given sin or not, we still stand guilty. Remember, if we break even one of the laws, we are guilty of breaking them all...As a Christian however, we live under Grace...

When I read that through one mans disobedience sin entered into all men, I do not get out of it through ones man's disobedience, disobedience entered into all men. You seem to equate disobedience and sin as the same. My take is sin is being in a state of unrighteousness separate and apart from God in some degree.