Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Grubal Muruch]

Its no argument that you teach salvation by works, opposed to Grace..Thats a fact !

What church or denomination are you affiliated with??

 

[savedbygrace57]

What church or denomination are you affiliated with??

Off topic, defend your teaching of salvation by works, when scripture does not say that.

 

[francisdesales]

that if thou shalt do these things thou shalt live.

Consider WHY doing these things "thou shall live". Is it because God has chosen to grant salvation conditionally as a free gift, or is it because "do these things" obligates God? God provides salvation. Correct? The question is "WHY". Is it based upon our earning it by "doing these things" or is it because God grants His mercy to those who respond to Him?

some would interpret that to be as glory says. i was taught that. be ye holy as i am holy is found in the ot.

but looking at the prophets and men of God it was NEVER, THEIR deeds that made them right but their faith.

now moses was meekest on the face of the earth
david a man after gods own heart
noah found GRACE IN THE sight of the lord
abraham believed and rightenous was imputed upon him.

and all these had faults and all are clearly recorded

noah got drunk, abraham doubted at times and also lied about his wife sarah
david murdered and commited adultery, moses smote the rock

That should lead one to the point that I have made dozens of times here - that God doesn't require men to be utterly perfect and sinless to offer salvation...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Fran says-----Please provide me a verse from Sacred Scriptures that tells us that God expects sinless perfection from mankind?

Grubal-----Logic will dictate the answer you require. First of all, no man is capable of "sinless" perfection...There's no such animal...

Where exactly is this EXPECTATION pointed out by God?

You claim SOMEONE is required to be perfect. WHERE does the Bible say that ANYONE is required to be perfect (that would necessitate God sending His Son for THAT reason...)

Earlier, you said that God EXPECTS man to be perfect. WHERE does the Bible point out this expectation/demand before mercy is granted?

I posit that this is a man-made doctrine based upon incorrect reading of Sacred Writ. That is why you have not provided me with anything that tells me that man is required or expect (regardless if man is able or not. That is not the concern. It is the EXPECTATION or DEMAND that man is perfect).

What is utterly ironic is that THIS idea of a "just God" is fallacious - God expecting a man to be perfect, when they cannot, is NOT a "just God"!!!

Christ is the "only" man who was sinless (the second Adam) He, was "sinless perfection personified" In order for man to be perfect enough for eternal life and come into the presents of Almighty God, that man would have to be "sinless" (without ANY sin) And the only way a man can become "sinless" before God is through Christ.

Yes, I have read the brochure, but I find little in the Bible to back it up...

You presume, based upon human ideas, that God "needs" to await for the perfect man so that He can save man... This is based upon man's idea of justice, not God's.

Can you provide some Scriptures that back this up?

If Christ be his Savior, that man is considered to be in the, "body of Christ," and therefore, he has been "sanctified, indwelt, and sealed" by the Holy Spirit and therefore, God no longer sees the mans sin, He sees the man (perfect) because the man is in the "body of Christ."

Where does the Bible state that God no longer sees man sin? I am amazed to find such theology recited, but with little to back it up. Could you post me a verse or two?

Fran says-----We are to aim for it, strive for it, to be holy as God is holy, to become mature, complete.

Grubal----- Apart from the "indwelling" Holy Spirit, we "cannot" do ANY striving on our own.

Nor did I say that. Those abiding in the Spirit are not alone.

(None) And in order to be able to strive we need to be, "Born again Spiritually" and that's a work of the Holy Spirit, not through, water baptism, going to church, doing good works, etc...

Water baptism is a work of the Spirit, yes. It is not dependent upon some emotional outburst or a "burning in the bosom".

Fran----- But do you really think God expects us to be utterly sinless??? Such a one is a "liar", according to 1 John... IF God EXPECTS sinless perfection, why does GOD HIMSELF call such a one who thinks this "a liar"???

Grubal----We can only be made perfect by receiving Christ as Savoir and Lord, and being sanctified (cleansed) by the Spirit/indwelt and sealed. After that, e we are made perfect through Christ. However, we still live in our "fleshly" bodies and are capable of sin...But, we are seen by God as "perfect" through His Son...

We are not made "perfect" during this life, if you are continuing the meaning of "perfect" used in this thread. Furthermore, God does see our sin, He is not blind to it. A person who sins is not "in Christ". They are following the flesh.

Fran----Jesus didn't become sin, let's clarify that. He bore the punishment that man faces as a result of sin - death (according to what God told Adam). You are misstating Paul's intent.

Grubal----2 Corinthians 5:21 will explain your question above. 2 Corinthians 5:21---"For he has made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Enough is said there to answer you...

I already explained that you are misunderstanding Paul.

God was not made sin. THINK for a minute, will you? It quite obviously means something OTHER than you think...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Where exactly is this EXPECTATION pointed out by God?

You claim SOMEONE is required to be perfect. WHERE does the Bible say that ANYONE is required to be perfect (that would necessitate God sending His Son for THAT reason...)

Earlier, you said that God EXPECTS man to be perfect. WHERE does the Bible point out this expectation/demand before mercy is granted?

I posit that this is a man-made doctrine based upon incorrect reading of Sacred Writ. That is why you have not provided me with anything that tells me that man is required or expect (regardless if man is able or not. That is not the concern. It is the EXPECTATION or DEMAND that man is perfect).

What is utterly ironic is that THIS idea of a "just God" is fallacious - God expecting a man to be perfect, when they cannot, is NOT a "just God"!!!



Yes, I have read the brochure, but I find little in the Bible to back it up...

You presume, based upon human ideas, that God "needs" to await for the perfect man so that He can save man... This is based upon man's idea of justice, not God's.

Can you provide some Scriptures that back this up?



Where does the Bible state that God no longer sees man sin? I am amazed to find such theology recited, but with little to back it up. Could you post me a verse or two?



Nor did I say that. Those abiding in the Spirit are not alone.



Water baptism is a work of the Spirit, yes. It is not dependent upon some emotional outburst or a "burning in the bosom".



We are not made "perfect" during this life, if you are continuing the meaning of "perfect" used in this thread. Furthermore, God does see our sin, He is not blind to it. A person who sins is not "in Christ". They are following the flesh.



I already explained that you are misunderstanding Paul.

God was not made sin. THINK for a minute, will you? It quite obviously means something OTHER than you think...

OK, have it your own way, believe what you will...

 

[Webb]

Francis, post #460: ''THE DIDACHE, WRITTEN DURING TIHE SAME TIME THAT THE NT WAS WRITTEN, TELLS US SIMPLE FACTS OF HISTORY --- THAT IN SOME CASES, ( LIKE LACK OF WATER IN THE DESERT ---), TOTAL SUBMERSION WAS NOT NECESSARY. AT ANY RATE, THE RITUAL ( AMOUNT OF WATER AND SUCH ) SYMBOLIC. THE 'WORK' BEING DONE IS INVISIBLE.''

There are multitudes of ''SIMPLE FACTS OF HISTORY'' which are not in accord with the teachings of the Bible. Apart from uninspired sources the scripture still plainly reads that Jesus when He was baptized "went up straightway from the water" ( Matt. 316 ). Doesn't sound like sprinkling or pouring. You do not need to go to the water to do that. This agrees with verse 5 which reads "Then went out unto him Jerusalelm, and all Judaea, and all the region round about the Jordan; And they were baptized of him IN THE RIVER JORDAN ( emp. mine W. ), confessing their sins" ( Matt. 3:5,6 ). As to ''THE AMOUNT OF WATER" John 3:23 reads: "And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there". Much water is not necessary for sprinkling or pouring but only for immersion. This agrees with Acts 8 when Phillip baptized the Eunuch we read: "And he commanded the chariot to stand still; and they both went down into the water both Phillip and the eunuch; and he baptized him." vs 38,39. If you have not been immersed you have not been baptized and if you have not been baptized you have not been born again, regardless of argument. Rom. 6:3-5 describes baptism as a burial.

It is true, as you said: ''THE 'WORK' BEING DONE IS INVISIBLE''. But, our part in the matter must be in accord with what the scripture prescribes even as in tihe case of Naaman in II Kings 5.

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

Francis, post #460: ''THE DIDACHE, WRITTEN DURING TIHE SAME TIME THAT THE NT WAS WRITTEN, TELLS US SIMPLE FACTS OF HISTORY --- THAT IN SOME CASES, ( LIKE LACK OF WATER IN THE DESERT ---), TOTAL SUBMERSION WAS NOT NECESSARY. AT ANY RATE, THE RITUAL ( AMOUNT OF WATER AND SUCH ) SYMBOLIC. THE 'WORK' BEING DONE IS INVISIBLE.''

There are multitudes of ''SIMPLE FACTS OF HISTORY'' which are not in accord with the teachings of the Bible.

The Didache is connected with the same Christian community responsible for writing the letters that would come to be called "the New Testament". Considering that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, the Didache accurately gives us an orthodox account of what actually took place and how people were trained to live the Christian way of life.

Do you have any historical reason to doubt the veracity of the accounts of the Didache?

Apart from uninspired sources the scripture still plainly reads that Jesus when He was baptized "went up straightway from the water"

It also says that Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River. Have you booked your boat ride yet? Don't forget, you have to use only the type of transportation available to Jesus, if we are going to take this to its logical conclusion ;)

Jesus left such matters to the Apostolic Church.

Nowhere does the Bible record exactly HOW baptism took place. We must rely on other sources, historical sources that not only accurately tell of HOW Christians baptized, but also accurately speak of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth ...

It is true, as you said: ''THE 'WORK' BEING DONE IS INVISIBLE''. But, our part in the matter must be in accord with what the scripture prescribes even as in tihe case of Naaman in II Kings 5.

God bless

The Scriptures do not tell us that one must be baptized by immersion. It says "with water". And the Spirit. That is how the historic Church of the first century did it, when necessary. Baptism by immersion remains the "ordinary" means of baptism in the Catholic Church.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

Consider WHY doing these things "thou shall live". Is it because God has chosen to grant salvation conditionally as a free gift, or is it because "do these things" obligates God? God provides salvation. Correct? The question is "WHY". Is it based upon our earning it by "doing these things" or is it because God grants His mercy to those who respond to Him?



That should lead one to the point that I have made dozens of times here - that God doesn't require men to be utterly perfect and sinless to offer salvation...

Regards

one the former the law was given to show us what we should do. and in that we couldnt be perfect and in later books written by the prophet and also paul it was to show us that we cant be perfect and that we are called to be holy as God was. this was done to show us that we are men most evil and in need of a saviour. that is all. God wasnt intending by the law to reedeem us. in fact he often said isreal wouldnt follow the law. or his commandments.

secondly. for the life of me i cant seem to understand why some posters here dont read what the word does say. it appears that some want to support their churches pet doctrines verse what the bible does support.

i have to face some of that as i ask you know was a hardcore pretribber. and i know i would get the looks from many in my church if i stated that i dont believe God will come within my lifetime. while its possible i merely see what is happening on a global scale vs what only is happening in america. in america the church is dying and in asia and the middle east its growing. hardly anything new.

 

[glorydaz]

That should lead one to the point that I have made dozens of times here - that God doesn't require men to be utterly perfect and sinless to offer salvation...

Regards

Of course he doesn't, He knows we can't be perfect or sinless.

This is why He sent His Son, so His righteousness would be counted as ours when we are IN CHRIST.

And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

We have Christ's righteous robe as a covering. What man cannot do, Jesus did.

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

 

[glorydaz]

gm



Not the scripture, the scripture is fine, but your teaching of salvation by works is not scriptural. You teach that man is saved by and because of something he does. Believing, confessing, repenting, are they not things that man does ? Yes or no..the answer should be very simple lol..

Jesus said believing is a work of God. Why do you not heed the Word of God, and insist on interpreting it according to your own human understanding. This is not the Holy Spirit causing you to proclaim a such a gospel.

Your argument is obviously with God and not us. We are told to repent and confess our sins after we are persuaded by the gospel message to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. The only reason you continue to denigrate God's plan of salvation is because you want people to believe that God only saves certain people, and the rest were created for destruction. For the life of me, I can't figure out why you run from thread to thread speading this falsehood as if your very life depended on it.

 

[francisdesales]

Of course he doesn't, He knows we can't be perfect or sinless.

Non sequitar. He isn't required to be perfect or sinless...

This is why He sent His Son, so His righteousness would be counted as ours when we are IN CHRIST.

That's not quite how the Bible relates on why Jesus was sent by the Father...

We have Christ's righteous robe as a covering. What man cannot do, Jesus did.

None of your citations say this... What else is new...

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

The post before, however, I disagree with the idea that seems to be common here: God sent His Son to be a perfect Law follower; that way, God could grant mercy and redeem mankind, because God "couldn't" grant mercy until perfection was achieved...

Regards

It isn't that He couldn't, it's that He wouldn't.

God doesn't extend mercy "just because."
God extends mercy for a purpose...always.

Jesus Christ coming to the cross is God's mercy to mankind. First God wrote His law in our heart (conscience), then He gave the law to Moses to expose sin for what it was. Then He sent Jesus to deal with sin and provide a way for man to be reconciled with God.

As to showing us mercy....it has a purpose.

I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

God did demand perfection and sent His Son as the Lamb without blemish. It isn't that God can't tolerate sin, but that He won't. His face was hid from us because of our iniquities. That's why Jesus was the only perfect "doer of the law".....so we could come freely into the presence of God by the Lord Jesus Christ.

As to God's requirement for perfection.

Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

 

[francisdesales]

one the former the law was given to show us what we should do. and in that we couldnt be perfect

Excuse me, Jason, but where does the Bible say that God expects us to be perfect? As in sinless? Why would God expect us to be perfect if that is impossible? Is this making any sense? There seems to be a logical disconnect in the "God owes salvation to men" camp. I realize that you have been taught this, but really, where does the Bible state that God's justice DEMANDS perfection???

I have never seen our God act this way in Scriptures. He awaits the repentant man who seeks Him out (by His promptings). But I don't find these passages that states that God is awaiting utter perfection before reaching out in mercy.

and in later books written by the prophet and also paul it was to show us that we cant be perfect and that we are called to be holy as God was.

Yes, the party line. I am familiar with it. Unfortunately, I don't find any support for it in Scriptures. In addition, the Bible does speak of men achieving "perfection" in the NT. This level of perfection (called "maturity" or "completeness" in other translations) is enough for God to call us righteous.

God wasnt intending by the law to reedeem us. in fact he often said isreal wouldnt follow the law. or his commandments.

True. It was not God's intent that we could earn salvation through the Law. Only being "as a child" in humble obedience could man hope that God would grant grace. Salvation doesn't rely on ANY perfection. It relies on the grace of God.

secondly. for the life of me i cant seem to understand why some posters here dont read what the word does say. it appears that some want to support their churches pet doctrines verse what the bible does support.

Indeed... I wonder that, too. I keep asking for Scritpures, but get none...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

It isn't that He couldn't, it's that He wouldn't.

God doesn't extend mercy "just because."
God extends mercy for a purpose...always.

Of course, but it doesn't depend upon a perfect repentance. Haven't you read the OT? God is a merciful God. The Jews KNOW this from experience. Yes???

And HOW could they know this unless they experienced it FIRST HAND?

But according to you, God is waiting for the perfect Law follower before Mercy is granted...

God's glory is manifest in His display of MERCY!!! This is the nature of the Unconditional Love of God. It doesn't NEED to have the "human" idea of "justice" that you invent. "Justice" is not up to us to determine, when speaking of God's "requirements". It is man-made doctrines that "conclude" that a perfect God can only be in a just situation if a perfect man presents himself. But this is a THEORY. NOT SCRIPTURES!

Chew on that for awhile. Your idea comes from this non-Scriptural focus on the need for God's justice to be fulfilled ONLY by a perfect follower of the Law. HOWEVER, the one who is offended determines when Justice is satisfied. Isn't it clear that God has NOT made such a demand for perfection before Justice is satisfied?

Jesus Christ coming to the cross is God's mercy to mankind.

Yes, it is. But that is not about perfect Law following. It is ultimate self-sacrifice, which is exactly the kind of Love that God desires from us. A "death" to self.

First God wrote His law in our heart (conscience), then He gave the law to Moses to expose sin for what it was. Then He sent Jesus to deal with sin and provide a way for man to be reconciled with God.

The manner by which Jesus "dealt with sin" is more to show the power of love over sin. Not to point out how pitiful man was in obeying the Law. That is not how a Lover acts towards the Beloved - to rub their face in it...

God did demand perfection

Scriptures please...

Isaiah says nothing about perfection...

I can easily cite numerous OT Scriptures that tell us of "imperfect men" who have the Lord turn His face to them... (recall, this is BEFORE Jesus showed mankind sinlessness).



For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him II Chronicles 30:9

HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE, in your "theology"???? Isn't it clear that there is no requirement of perfection here????????
Regards

 

[Mike]

Its no argument that you teach salvation by works, opposed to Grace..Thats a fact !

I imagine you could take any die-hard Calvinist, and they would echo your sentiment. Why, you're the elect! That's grand! Your ticket is punched. You don't need the law, you don't need works, and you don't need to repent, confess and have faith, because YOU are the Elect. Darn, how easy my life would be if I joined your sect.

 

[glorydaz]

Of course he doesn't, He knows we can't be perfect or sinless.

Non sequitar. He isn't required to be perfect or sinless...

Man must be perfect in order to come into the presence of our Righteous God, and so Jesus was perfect for us. As we abide in Him, we have His righteousness accounted to us. "All men have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

This is why He sent His Son, so His righteousness would be counted as ours when we are IN CHRIST.

That's not quite how the Bible relates on why Jesus was sent by the Father...

Wasn't Christ sent to reconcile men to God?

Was He not sent to save sinners? In order to do that, God says we must be justified by faith in Christ.
In order to be justified, we must have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. I gave you the verses for that already.

We have Christ's righteous robe as a covering. What man cannot do, Jesus did.

None of your citations say this... What else is new...

Oh, did you miss this? What else could this mean, do you think? Do you think that robe belongs to anyone except Christ. He is the only WAY, right?

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Look, here's another one. It does say specifically the Lord is OUR righteousness. That doesn't make you wonder how the Lord can be our righteousness? We are in Christ, so doesn't it stand to reason His righteousness would be counted as ours?

Why does this say, "The Lord OUR Righteousness"?

In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

 

[Webb]

Francis--I assume you believe the NT to be inspired of the Holy Spirit. I do. If you do I encourage you to consider the passages I gave in post 506.

God bless

 

[glorydaz]

Of course, but it doesn't depend upon a perfect repentance. Haven't you read the OT? God is a merciful God. The Jews KNOW this from experience. Yes???

And HOW could they know this unless they experienced it FIRST HAND?

But according to you, God is waiting for the perfect Law follower before Mercy is granted...

God's glory is manifest in His display of MERCY!!! This is the nature of the Unconditional Love of God. It doesn't NEED to have the "human" idea of "justice" that you invent. "Justice" is not up to us to determine, when speaking of God's "requirements". It is man-made doctrines that "conclude" that a perfect God can only be in a just situation if a perfect man presents himself. But this is a THEORY. NOT SCRIPTURES!

Yes, I have read the Old Testament, and it gives a perfect picture that proves what you say is untrue. Everything had to be pure in the temple service. Pure gold, pure oil, pure frankincense, pure myrrh, pure candlestick, pure incense, pure table, pure blood of the grape, and even pure priests. Why did everything have to be purified before entering the Holy of Holies? Because God is Holy and will not tolerate sin in His presence. And why did the lamb have to be unblemished?

For the priests and the Levites were purified together, all of them were pure, and killed the passover for all the children of the captivity, and for their brethren the priests, and for themselves.

Chew on that for awhile. Your idea comes from this non-Scriptural focus on the need for God's justice to be fulfilled ONLY by a perfect follower of the Law. HOWEVER, the one who is offended determines when Justice is satisfied. Isn't it clear that God has NOT made such a demand for perfection before Justice is satisfied?

Actually, no. It's quite clear God does demand perfection before justice is satisfied.
The RIGHTEOUS SERVANT justifies many..."for he shall bear their iniquities.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him II Chronicles 30:9

HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE, in your "theology"???? Isn't it clear that there is no requirement of perfection here????????
Regards

As I stated already, God does not dispense mercy without a purpose. His purpose in Israel's case was "if they returned unto Him." Why do you think the Jews suffered so much, and still are to this day?

Pay close attention to this verse. The Jews failed for lack of knowledge. What knowledge would that be? They failed because they went about trying to establish their own righteousness. It's the righteousness of Christ they needed to access through faith. Christ is the end of the law for righteousnes....no more trying to be justified before God with our own righteousness. We are justified by faith when Christ's righteousness is counted as ours.

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

There is, indeed, a requirement for perfection. Man, unable attain that perfection had to have Christ's perfection (righteousness) imputed to us. You're just donkeying down on this, Joe. Just like Drew does with Romans 2, and SbyG does by insisting that believing is salvation by works. You've ignored most, if not all, of the scripture I've given that would make it clear if you had an ear to hear. Not much more I can do at this point, but encourage you to see.

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory

Jesus said believing is a work of God.

That is not the dispute. The bible clearly teaches that believing is something that God commands to be done. 1 Jn 3:23


23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now, is believing something commanded to be done by an individual or not ?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I imagine you could take any die-hard Calvinist, and they would echo your sentiment. Why, you're the elect! That's grand! Your ticket is punched. You don't need the law, you don't need works, and you don't need to repent, confess and have faith, because YOU are the Elect. Darn, how easy my life would be if I joined your sect.

Indeed, Calvinists have it made!!!