Salvation by faith alone/only?

[Grubal Muruch]

glory



That is not the dispute. The bible clearly teaches that believing is something that God commands to be done. 1 Jn 3:23


23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now, is believing something commanded to be done by an individual or not ?

There's no doubt whatsoever, that we "must" believe...

 

[savedbygrace57]

There's no doubt whatsoever, that we "must" believe...

Believing is man doing something is it not ? So if you are saved because you did something, that is works salvation, condemned by the scripture. Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

So you deny Salvation by Grace when you enter man's works into the picture Rom 11:5-6
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So remember that, But if it be of works, then it is no more grace !

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Believing is man doing something is it not ? So if you are saved because you did something, that is works salvation, condemned by the scripture. Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

So you deny Salvation by Grace when you enter man's works into the picture Rom 11:5-6
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

So remember that, But if it be of works, then it is no more grace !

How and when did you get saved? And does that "salvation" guarantee you to eternal life with God?? If you won't or can't answer these questions, then you have no validity with me...No matter what else you say, I won't trust it... Sorry, but I'm being honest. No offence...

 

[Eventide]

Amazing that one of the simplest truths of scripture is perverted like this..

What must I do to be saved..?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

And of course there are many who have been taught that they can't believe unless God regenerates them and allows that to happen personally for them.. and so when men follow the teaching of men, then even the simplest truths of scripture are perverted to that end.

Calvinism is the only teaching in Christendom which claims that men can't believe the simple message of the gospel unless God regenerates them first... and so for them it all comes down to God chose me unconditionally..

That's the Cavinist testimony.. no belief, no repentance, no taking up their cross.. God allows all that for them and not for all..

S P E C I A L . . .

 

[jasoncran]

Excuse me, Jason, but where does the Bible say that God expects us to be perfect? As in sinless? Why would God expect us to be perfect if that is impossible? Is this making any sense? There seems to be a logical disconnect in the "God owes salvation to men" camp. I realize that you have been taught this, but really, where does the Bible state that God's justice DEMANDS perfection???

I have never seen our God act this way in Scriptures. He awaits the repentant man who seeks Him out (by His promptings). But I don't find these passages that states that God is awaiting utter perfection before reaching out in mercy.



Yes, the party line. I am familiar with it. Unfortunately, I don't find any support for it in Scriptures. In addition, the Bible does speak of men achieving "perfection" in the NT. This level of perfection (called "maturity" or "completeness" in other translations) is enough for God to call us righteous.



True. It was not God's intent that we could earn salvation through the Law. Only being "as a child" in humble obedience could man hope that God would grant grace. Salvation doesn't rely on ANY perfection. It relies on the grace of God.



Indeed... I wonder that, too. I keep asking for Scritpures, but get none...

Regards

the funny thing joe

in the ot theres this seldom read prophet that said this and paul quotes him galatians.

the just shall live by faith. hmm interesting aint it. that was told to the nation of isreal and how did one become justified then? it had to be first you believed in the YHWH enough that you loved him with all your might and when you sinned you also did the appropriate penance and also righted whom you wronged.

take note in numbers when god described the hearts of joshua and caleb, he said that they had a right spirit in them. and spoke highly of them.

 

[francisdesales]

the funny thing joe

in the ot theres this seldom read prophet that said this and paul quotes him galatians.

the just shall live by faith. hmm interesting aint it. that was told to the nation of isreal and how did one become justified then? it had to be first you believed in the YHWH enough that you loved him with all your might and when you sinned you also did the appropriate penance and also righted whom you wronged.

take note in numbers when god described the hearts of joshua and caleb, he said that they had a right spirit in them. and spoke highly of them.

Jason,

Where in all of this do you find that man is expected to be utterly perfect and sinless?

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

none. the law was shown that we cant be perfect and was a guide to live and not perfection. the idea is the pharisees thought that law was the way to the YHWH. AND Paul was dealing with that and also the galatians who though that way too.

they went from trusting god to themselves to be perfected.

there are verses that say

theres none righteous no not one and also paul quotes that too in romans. for all have sinned and fallen short..

the bloodletting of animals wasnt enough to cleanse us (explained in hebrews) and also we needed a perfect sacrifice and high priest whom good atone for us once for all. that too is explained in hebrews.

this is so that we can be cleansed wholly and given that new heart . also prophecied in ezekiel and i think jeremiah. the new covenant. the law had parts that no man could meet and that the lord himself could only be the one.(the one to stand in the gap)


for in that day ye shall not say know the lord, for man shall know the lord.

given that, all that believed did so and without being perfect and those that talked to the lord and also served him also were counted faithful. see hebrews 13

 

[francisdesales]

theres none righteous no not one and also paul quotes that too in romans. for all have sinned and fallen short..

It appears that you agree that man does not need to be utterly sinless before God turns to grant mercy to us...

For anyone who has read the OT will quickly realize that God is a God of mercy and forgiveness. Note, forgiveness. This implies that somoene had sinned and needed to be forgiven. Now, doesn't the verses you imply suggest that forgiveness was granted despite there not being a perfect law follower?



Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, I have read the Old Testament,

Really? And yet, you don't notice that your theology is full of holes? One of the most prominent themes of the OT is that God is a God of mercy. He doesn't REQUIRE perfection before granting forgiveness. I have said this dozens of times, and it still isn't registering, is it. When someone asks God for forgiveness, it is granted by God!

There is no indication of "you must be perfect first". If so, NO ONE would have been forgiven!!! Don't you get it?

I cited 2 Chronicles. You failed to address the point, ignoring the fact that God turns to us, even if we aren't utterly sinless...

The Psalms are FULL of such notions. Have you read and prayed them REALLY, or just as a homework assignment, read through quickly without pondering?

Out of the depths I cry to you, O LORD!
O Lord, hear my voice!
Let your ears be attentive
to the voice of my pleas for mercy!
If you, O LORD, should mark iniquities,
O Lord, who could stand?
But with you there is forgiveness,
that you may be feared.


INDEED. This section of Psalm 130 addresses your point:

IF YOU, O LORD, SHOULD MARK INIQUITIES, O LORD, WHO COULD STAND?

BUT WITH YOU THERE IS FORGIVENESS...

"Glorydaz", I don't have time for your refusal to read and consider the Scriptures. It is plain that you are unaware of God's mercy granted even before Christ came in the flesh to "earn salvation for men". GOD DOES NOT "MARK" OUR INIQUITIES. For if He did, no one could stand.

Note, the "BUT"...

I could cite something from Sacred Writ EVERY DAY until the rest of the year that tells us the same thing. You have not a single verse that tells us that God REQUIRES men to be sinless and perfect before granting mercy.

Let the reader note.

This is what happens when someone doesn't read Scriptures with the mind of the Church...

Everything had to be pure in the temple service. Pure gold, pure oil, pure frankincense, pure myrrh, pure candlestick, pure incense, pure table, pure blood of the grape, and even pure priests. Why did everything have to be purified before entering the Holy of Holies? Because God is Holy and will not tolerate sin in His presence. And why did the lamb have to be unblemished?

Apparently, you are also utterly unaware of what RITUAL PURITY is, what its purpose is, and how it is DIFFERENT from utter sinlessness...

Actually, no. It's quite clear God does demand perfection before justice is satisfied.

Where? Where is this so clear? I have asked for ONE verse for well over a week. Can you not even provide ONE???

Yes, we are justified by God's servant. But it doesn't follow that this servant is even perfect! Or that God REQUIRES that servant to be perfect. It is merely an expression of God's Grace and the idea and usefulness of suffering for the sake of another. We find this in other sections of Scriptures that have nothing to do with the Messiah, such as in 2 Maccabees, where the seven brothers who were martyred saw their sacrifices as an expiation for the sake of Israel.

Throughout Scriptures, we find evidence of God's mercy extending to those whom His servants intercede for. For example, the story of Abraham praying for the city of Sodom to be spared. Do you recall? The righteous appealing to God for the sake of the wicked. And God was willing to intervene and spare the city, if even 10 "righteous" men were found. The same idea is true with the Servant of God, as I am sure you will agree. But there is no "necessity of perfection" from the servant of God BEFORE He agrees to intervene and provide His mercy. In the Sodom case, the potential existed WITHOUT the aid of a perfect law follower, correct?

As I stated already, God does not dispense mercy without a purpose.

You are entirely ignoring the point. No one said that God dispenses mercy without a purpose, so this is another non-sequitar. God dispenses mercy without the requirement of a perfect Law follower. That is plain to everyone who has opened their heart to God. Of course God has a reason to dispense it. It shows forth His Glory!

Pay close attention to this verse. The Jews failed for lack of knowledge. What knowledge would that be? They failed because they went about trying to establish their own righteousness.

For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him II Chronicles 30:9

I don't see any of that in this verse, do you???? What does that have to do with what we are talking about now?

I wish I could stay and repeat myself another hundred times, but I have to go...

Regards

 

[savedbygrace57]

gm

How and when did you get saved?

This thread is not about me. Its about the doctrine of Salvation, and i have shown what the bible says about it, it is by Grace, and not of works, but you deny that and insist its a result of mans works, things that he does.

Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[savedbygrace57]

eventide

What must I do to be saved..?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

So you also believe in salvation by works, something You do right ? What does the word do mean in that verse you quoted ?

 

[Eventide]

eventide



So you also believe in salvation by works, something You do right ? What does the word do mean in that verse you quoted ?

It has already been pointed out to you that believing in Christ is the work of God.. nobody wakes up one day and then believes something which they have not been convicted of. We know that the Spirit of God does exactly that.. He convinces the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. so it should be very obvious that believing in Christ is the work of God.

Does that mean that men can sit back and hope that they're regenerated so that they will believe..? Not at all.. because it's every bit as true that we must believe in order to be saved.. no exceptions,, not even for you.. even if you are led to believe that you're the elect..

AND, if you actually BELIEVED God then you would agree with what His words say in simplicity.. you would actually agree with the truth of God's word that you must believe in order to be saved.. and that you must take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Him..

But rather than agree with this most simple biblical principal.. you must say that it's the working of men and that it's works based salvation.. this is the fruit of following men like Calvin who taught that salvation is unconditional.. that God chooses certain men and then regenerates them so that they will believe that they need to take up their cross and follow Christ..

How glorious is that ? God preselects men and then allows them to lay down their life for Him.. imo that's ridiculous.. and yet it is swallowed hook line and sinker by many men like yourself...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

It has already been pointed out to you that believing in Christ is the work of God.. nobody wakes up one day and then believes something which they have not been convicted of. We know that the Spirit of God does exactly that.. He convinces the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. so it should be very obvious that believing in Christ is the work of God.

Does that mean that men can sit back and hope that they're regenerated so that they will believe..? Not at all.. because it's every bit as true that we must believe in order to be saved.. no exceptions,, not even for you.. even if you are led to believe that you're the elect..

AND, if you actually BELIEVED God then you would agree with what His words say in simplicity.. you would actually agree with the truth of God's word that you must believe in order to be saved.. and that you must take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Him..

But rather than agree with this most simple biblical principal.. you must say that it's the working of men and that it's works based salvation.. this is the fruit of following men like Calvin who taught that salvation is unconditional.. that God chooses certain men and then regenerates them so that they will believe that they need to take up their cross and follow Christ..

How glorious is that ? God preselects men and then allows them to lay down their life for Him.. imo that's ridiculous.. and yet it is swallowed hook line and sinker by many men like yourself...

AMEN!!!!

 

[savedbygrace57]

eventide

It has already been pointed out to you that believing in Christ is the work of God

I agree with that. However I have pointed out with scripture that believing is something man does, in fact he is commanded to do it. 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

When the jailor asked paul what must he do to be saved. What does the word do imply ?

 

[Eventide]

eventide

I agree with that. However I have pointed out with scripture that believing is something man does, in fact he is commanded to do it. 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

This is because believing somebody is not a mindless or heartless transaction.. there's conviction involved, based upon evidence.. believing God is actually agreeing with God's word.. "Can two walk together except they be agreed ?"

When the jailor asked paul what must he do to be saved. What does the word do imply ?

When taken as a whole it's obvious... what must I do... believing the truth about what God says.. it's what Abraham did DO, it's what the Bereans did DO.. they searched the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true, they saw the evidence..

Did you need to believe in order to be saved..? Did you need to repent ? Take up your cross ? Deny yourself ? Or did God just allow that for you and not for all men ?

I can't imagine how anyone can't see how ridiculous that is..

 

[savedbygrace57]

even

This is because believing somebody is not a mindless or heartless transaction

Its a command to do, that makes it a work !

what must I do... believing the truth about what God says..

Let me help you out. The word do in that verse is the greek word poieo a verb and means
to act rightly, do well; to perform

Its used as perform here lk 1:72

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

The word perform is defined by:
to fulfill a command, promise, or undertaking.

The word work is defined as :

something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking

So when studied, we find out that to believe is a work that man does.

So if you believe and teach that a man is saved from his sins because he believes, he keeps a commandment, then you are teaching salvation by works, and not grace. Grace and works do not mis Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Eventide]

Here, I'll try to help you out again...

What must I do to be saved ?

A) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved

B) Nothing

Which is it for you sbg ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Here, I'll try to help you out again...

What must I do to be saved ?

A) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved

B) Nothing

Which is it for you sbg ?

I dont need your help. I have just proved that you believe in salvation by works, rejecting salvation by grace.


Rom 11:6

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Eventide]

I dont need your help. I have just proved that you believe in salvation by works, rejecting salvation by grace.

What you just proved is your inability to answer the simplest of biblical questions pertaining to salvation, which even a babe in Christ could answer simply by reciting the truth of God's word.

But not you..

 

[savedbygrace57]

What you just proved is your inability to answer the simplest of biblical questions pertaining to salvation, which even a babe in Christ could answer simply by reciting the truth of God's word.

But not you..

What I have proved is that you believe and teach salvation by works. This thread is not about how I was saved. But I will say this, I was saved by Grace and not by anything I did !