Salvation by Faith Alone?

[francisdesales]

If there is not fruit of the Spirit then there is no new life. Fortunately, God sees into the heart of man, and we don't have to count on the judgment of men. Not all will flaunt their "good works" for all to see. Someone can be a prayer warrior and no one will see the fruit produced but God. Do they show forth the love of God in their heart through love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, or temperance? We will know them by their fruit....not their "good works".

You continue to misrepresent because you have nothing Scriptural to argue with. Thus, you manufacture false arguments that are readily beaten up.

NO ONE HERE says we are saved by our own works without God.

Isn't that clear enough for you?

When we do good works in Christ, they ARE our works, our righteousness by which God will judge us upon. Judgment will come to ALL men - and OUR works are the basis of that judgment. Not Christ's. Christ is not the object of judgment. HE will not be judged on whether His Spirit moved us enough or if there were enough work displayed through the "puppet" you call MAN.

MAN is judged. Abraham was justified by HIS faith and HIS work. This is clearly biblical, although you want to ignore it and explain it away.

His faith that God would provide another offspring and his work that allowed him to offer his son to God. Clearly, BOTH were needed, because God waited UNTIL AFTER it was clear that the work was forthcoming from Abraham. It was only THEN that God said "NOW I KNOW".

Regards

 

[chestertonrules]

[quote="glorydazhe ]. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.[/quote]

Present tense. You may know something now that will not be true tomorrow.



Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."


Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

 

[francisdesales]

Agreed..the fruit of the Spirit is evidence of salvation!

Thus, without the fruit, you are not saved, are you...?

faith alone is not salvific, because then, there is no evidence, no proof. Thus, it is "dead faith".

Dead faith (faith without love) cannot save. Thus, faith alone does not save.

Sola fide is dead.


NEXT...

 

[Mysteryman]

I merely pointed out that being saved by Jesus doesn't mean you will stay saved.

The bible is quite clear regarding this:


2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

Hi

Romans 8:31 - 39 - "Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"[/quote]

That doesn't mean we can't walk away.

Sin will separate us from God. Sin is our choice, not God's.[/quote]




Hi Chester

The lack of knowledge when it comes to the different understanding of the words - "saved" - "salvation" - "save" - and the words - "eternal life" have caused no end of confusion among christian sects.

Matt. 1:21 - "he shall save his people from their sins"

I Corinth. 1:21 - "to save them that believe"

Saved , means "for" or "from"

Romans 5:9 - "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath through him"

On the other hand, "eternal life" , means eternal = forever !

Romans 6:23 - "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" --- And since it was God's buisness whom he predestined unto eternal life. < Ephesians 1:3 - 14.

You can not loose a gift from God , such as eternal life, because of the simple fact that it is eternal, and not temporary !

I John 2:25 - "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, eternal life"

 

[Drew]

Our works is evidence that we had faith to begin with! But our works can not save us..it just proves we have faith! It is the faith in Christ that saves us!

Well, yes and no.

Remember what Paul writes in Romans 2:6-7:

He will reward each one according to his works: eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,

There really is no "out" here. The phrase "according to" means what it means. If I say "I am paid according to how many holes I have dug", this does not mean that the basis of my being paid is something other than the number of holes I have dug.

Why not take Paul at his word?

Now, to tell the whole story, it is only the person with faith in Christ that will be able to pass the good works-based judgement unto eternal life. So, in a very real sense, obviously our faith "saves us".

But, Paul means what he says - the basis for the granting of eternal life - the "what God will look at when handing out eternal life" if you will - is the works.

That may not sit well with certain reformed (and other traditions). But remember, the Reformers did not write Scripture, Paul wrote scripture.

 

[awaken]

Does the New Testament ever say that those that do not have works will not enter heaven?

YES...

The parable of the talents. The parable of the sheep and the goats. The parable of the foolish virgins.

Oh, how about your just read all of Matthew 25...

there is much more, but you can find it all readily laid out there...

As an aside, "works" are not works of the Law, but "works of Love".

Regards

Don't we first have to have salvation before we work it out?

 

[francisdesales]

The parable of the talents. The parable of the sheep and the goats. The parable of the foolish virgins.

Oh, how about your just read all of Matthew 25...

there is much more, but you can find it all readily laid out there...

As an aside, "works" are not works of the Law, but "works of Love".

Don't we first have to have salvation before we work it out?

You are avoiding my citations by asking me another question. I answered your question. In one chapter, the bible discusses THREE TIMES with nice parables that one must have good works to attain eternal life.

WITHOUT THOSE GOOD WORKS, "THEY" ARE CONDEMNED!!! Questioned answered.

First, address what Christ says - that good works are necessary in all of those parables BEFORE attaining eternal life. We are not talking about the "chronological order" of whether faith comes first before Love. We are talking about whether Love is required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven...

IS IT YOUR CONTENTION THAT WE CAN ENTER HEAVEN WITHOUT LOVE???

Note, carefully, in Matthew 25, the worker of evil is not being condemned... The one without love is.

Thus, faith alone condemns one to eternal damnation.

Sola fide is not only false, but condemns one to damnation...

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

The lack of knowledge when it comes to the different understanding of the words - "saved" - "salvation" - "save" - and the words - "eternal life" have caused no end of confusion among christian sects.

Matt. 1:21 - "he shall save his people from their sins"

I Corinth. 1:21 - "to save them that believe"

Saved , means "for" or "from"

Romans 5:9 - "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath through him"

On the other hand, "eternal life" , means eternal = forever !

Romans 6:23 - "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" --- And since it was God's buisness whom he predestined unto eternal life. < Ephesians 1:3 - 14.

You can not loose a gift from God , such as eternal life, because of the simple fact that it is eternal, and not temporary !

I John 2:25 - "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, eternal life"

 

[turnorburn]

The lack of knowledge when it comes to the different understanding of the words - "saved" - "salvation" - "save" - and the words - "eternal life" have caused no end of confusion among christian sects.

Matt. 1:21 - "he shall save his people from their sins"

I Corinth. 1:21 - "to save them that believe"

Saved , means "for" or "from"

Romans 5:9 - "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath through him"

On the other hand, "eternal life" , means eternal = forever !

Romans 6:23 - "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" --- And since it was God's buisness whom he predestined unto eternal life. < Ephesians 1:3 - 14.

You can not loose a gift from God , such as eternal life, because of the simple fact that it is eternal, and not temporary !

I John 2:25 - "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, eternal life"

Amen!

 

[glorydaz]

Agreed..the fruit of the Spirit is evidence of salvation!

Our works is evidence that we had faith to begin with! But our works can not save us..it just proves we have faith! It is the faith in Christ that saves us!

Salvation comes through faith...because of our faith..we will do the works...and we will do the works in love, joy, peace longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meedness, temperance... fruit of the Spirit..

But from the OT...to the NT..it still boils down to FAITH!! We cannot please God without it!

True, works do not save us, but our faith is just a conduit to the faith of Jesus Christ. He is both the author and finisher of our faith. Without the touch of the rod the water would not have gushed forth... yet it was the rock and not the rod, that contained the water. The serpent-bitten Israelite was to look at the uplifted serpent of brass in order to be healed. But his looking was not the brazen serpent. It was not his act of looking that healed him, but the object to which he looked. So faith is not our righteousness... it merely connects us to the righteous One, and makes us partakers of His righteousness. Notice, included in the fruit of the Spirit is FAITH. We tap into the faith of Christ through the Spirit.

 

[awaken]

The parable of the talents. The parable of the sheep and the goats. The parable of the foolish virgins.

Oh, how about your just read all of Matthew 25...

there is much more, but you can find it all readily laid out there...

As an aside, "works" are not works of the Law, but "works of Love".

Don't we first have to have salvation before we work it out?

You are avoiding my citations by asking me another question. I answered your question. In one chapter, the bible discusses THREE TIMES with nice parables that one must have good works to attain eternal life.

WITHOUT THOSE GOOD WORKS, "THEY" ARE CONDEMNED!!! Questioned answered.

First, address what Christ says - that good works are necessary in all of those parables BEFORE attaining eternal life. We are not talking about the "chronological order" of whether faith comes first before Love. We are talking about whether Love is required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven...

IS IT YOUR CONTENTION THAT WE CAN ENTER HEAVEN WITHOUT LOVE???

Note, carefully, in Matthew 25, the worker of evil is not being condemned... The one without love is.

Thus, faith alone condemns one to eternal damnation.

Sola fide is not only false, but condemns one to damnation...

Regards

Oh the circles of this thread..round and round we go!

This is one doctrine that I have been tossed back and forth on so much!

If by faith I accept Jesus work on the cross to save me, then I recieve salvation.."And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6) Grace is the undeserved favor and love of God toward mankind.


My understanding of salvation..
To be saved is to be rescued from the punishment for my sins (separation from God and torment in hell) and to inherit eternal life. By trusting in Christ for my salvation I instantly pass from spiritual death to spiritual life and freed from the power of sin. We are still in the presence of sin and we still struggle with sin while we are on earth, but at His coming we will receive our new, glorified, immortal bodies and our salvation will be complete.

Jesus paid for this savation on the cross and through grace He gave it to me as a gift. I receive salvation through faith!

Christ's sacrifice of atonement satisfied the demands of God's righteous nature. It enables believers to be restored to a right relationship with God because the guilt and penalty of our sins has been removed.

"and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:24)
We are justified at the moment when we trust in Christ alone and His finished work on the cross for our salvation.

To repent is to undergo a change of mind about your sins. This is not just changing your opinion, it means changing the entire direction of your life by turning away from sin and turning to Christ. It includes deep sorrow and regret for having offended God by sinning.

When a non-believer truly trusts in Christ alone for his salvation, he has changed his mind about his former sinful way of life and thus has repented. This is why the word "believe" is used throughout the Gospel of John, while the word "repent" is not used at all.

True repentance will lead to works of obedience to Christ (in Biblical terms, it will "produce fruit").

I can not understand how anyone that truly sees what Christ has done for them, accept it..and then later reject it! My first thought is they never believed to start with...Without true faith..they never received something to lose!

Didn't God seal me with His Holy Spirit?

 

[glorydaz]

Oh the circles of this thread..round and round we go!

This is one doctrine that I have been tossed back and forth on so much!

If by faith I accept Jesus work on the cross to save me, then I recieve salvation.."And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6) Grace is the undeserved favor and love of God toward mankind.


My understanding of salvation..
To be saved is to be rescued from the punishment for my sins (separation from God and torment in hell) and to inherit eternal life. By trusting in Christ for my salvation I instantly pass from spiritual death to spiritual life and freed from the power of sin. We are still in the presence of sin and we still struggle with sin while we are on earth, but at His coming we will receive our new, glorified, immortal bodies and our salvation will be complete.

Jesus paid for this savation on the cross and through grace He gave it to me as a gift. I receive salvation through faith!

Christ's sacrifice of atonement satisfied the demands of God's righteous nature. It enables believers to be restored to a right relationship with God because the guilt and penalty of our sins has been removed.

"and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:24)
We are justified at the moment when we trust in Christ alone and His finished work on the cross for our salvation.

To repent is to undergo a change of mind about your sins. This is not just changing your opinion, it means changing the entire direction of your life by turning away from sin and turning to Christ. It includes deep sorrow and regret for having offended God by sinning.

When a non-believer truly trusts in Christ alone for his salvation, he has changed his mind about his former sinful way of life and thus has repented. This is why the word "believe" is used throughout the Gospel of John, while the word "repent" is not used at all.

True repentance will lead to works of obedience to Christ (in Biblical terms, it will "produce fruit").

I can not understand how anyone that truly sees what Christ has done for them, accept it..and then later reject it! My first thought is they never believed to start with...Without true faith..they never received something to lose!

Didn't God seal me with His Holy Spirit?

You most certainly have, and all these "round and round" arguments are nothing but an attempt to pull us away from the promises of God and instill doubt in the believer. Stick to the simple Gospel message...you've got it down.

 

[Nick]

Thus, without the fruit, you are not saved, are you...?

faith alone is not salvific, because then, there is no evidence, no proof. Thus, it is "dead faith".

Dead faith (faith without love) cannot save. Thus, faith alone does not save.

I can agree with that. But we mustn't get into the idea that Christ's death is not enough. I'm not saying that you're saying this, but I'm saying that it's easy to get into that kind of idea from here.

 

[francisdesales]

This is one doctrine that I have been tossed back and forth on so much!

If by faith I accept Jesus work on the cross to save me, then I recieve salvation.."And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6) Grace is the undeserved favor and love of God toward mankind.

Another refusal to acknowledge that I answered your question about where the Bible states that works save us...

Again, the problem is you and the sola fide believers do not understand the definition of salvation as MM correctly points out. You apply your convuluted defintion broad-stroked across the variety of meanings that Scriptures use for the term, thus, the confusion.

The definition of salvation above - that I receive salvation - is = to the forgiveness of sin. It does NOT follow that this same salvation ALWAYS leads to salvation to eternal heaven... One must CONTINUE, CONTINUE in faith, belief, obedience to gain this access. Scriptures give ample examples of those who ONCE received such "salvation" (forgiveness of sins) who DO NOT receive the OTHER salvation - entrance into eternal life in heaven...

By telescoping "forgiveness of sins" to ALL times Scriptures speaks of salvation, you lose sight of the fallacy of OSAS - and that we CAN lose "salvation", our inheritance to eternal life given.

My understanding of salvation..
To be saved is to be rescued from the punishment for my sins (separation from God and torment in hell) and to inherit eternal life.

This inheritance is conditionally given upon that we REMAIN in Christ's abiding presence. This does not happen when we willingly sin again and chase the Spirit out of our souls - the work of the cross no longer applies to such an unrepentant "son" of God...

We are still in the presence of sin and we still struggle with sin while we are on earth, but at His coming we will receive our new, glorified, immortal bodies and our salvation will be complete.

Which means we don't have it yet. The presumption is that we will REMAIN in Christ...

Jesus paid for this savation on the cross and through grace He gave it to me as a gift. I receive salvation through faith!

And if that faith becomes dead faith, faith without love, it is worthless, according to Paul and Jesus, as I have already pointed out, and you have promptly and continuously ignored...

"and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (Romans 3:24)
We are justified at the moment when we trust in Christ alone and His finished work on the cross for our salvation.

To repent is to undergo a change of mind about your sins. This is not just changing your opinion, it means changing the entire direction of your life by turning away from sin and turning to Christ. It includes deep sorrow and regret for having offended God by sinning.

Yes, and if there is no good works, there is no saving faith, and thus, faith alone does not save. Christ clearly tells us that good works are indicative of that saving faith. Without them, there is no salvation to eternal life. Note again Matthew 25. None of the "goats" committed major sins. The foolish virgins, what sin did they commit? The issue is that without works of love, you cannot enter the Kingdom.

When a non-believer truly trusts in Christ alone for his salvation, he has changed his mind about his former sinful way of life and thus has repented. This is why the word "believe" is used throughout the Gospel of John, while the word "repent" is not used at all.

True repentance will lead to works of obedience to Christ (in Biblical terms, it will "produce fruit").

I can not understand how anyone that truly sees what Christ has done for them, accept it..and then later reject it! My first thought is they never believed to start with...Without true faith..they never received something to lose!

Didn't God seal me with His Holy Spirit?

The seal marks as you as a child of God, not as an unconditionally saved to heaven person... One becomes an heir ONLY upon fulfilling an obligation - it is not unconditionally given to everyone.

Saul was also sealed with the Spirit, and the Spirit promptly abandoned Saul when he chose not to follow the ways of God.

 

[francisdesales]

Thus, without the fruit, you are not saved, are you...?

faith alone is not salvific, because then, there is no evidence, no proof. Thus, it is "dead faith".

Dead faith (faith without love) cannot save. Thus, faith alone does not save.

I can agree with that. But we mustn't get into the idea that Christ's death is not enough. I'm not saying that you're saying this, but I'm saying that it's easy to get into that kind of idea from here.

I have never suggested that Christ's death is not enough. I think I have amply stated otherwise that without God, NO ONE can be saved in my rendition of Romans 1-3.

My signature equally shows that whatever I do is dependent upon Christ and His Work.

If someone can fall into one trap, people can go the other direction and be just as guilty of error...

My point is that Christ's death is not applied to the wicked, or the once-righteous who turn away from the gift given. The work of Christ is NOT applied to all men, despite the fact that God desires that ALL men be saved.

THUS, salvation is CONDITIONAL - the work of Jesus is applied conditionally to individual men. The man who seeks out God, moved by the Spirit, will indeed continue in Christ's abiding presence. He who has the Son has eternal life. If one refuses to abide in Christ - via obedience to the commandments, not just because someone says they have Christ - then they reject eternal life, and do not have the Son.

It is clear to me, then, that obedience to God is an absolute requirment to attain eternal life.

The possibility of obeying God is a gift from God Himself. Thus, no one can boast, since a positive judgment of a man DEPENDS upon that gift being efficacious in that man.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You most certainly have, and all these "round and round" arguments are nothing but an attempt to pull us away from the promises of God and instill doubt in the believer. Stick to the simple Gospel message...you've got it down.

Wrong, sir.

Paul is quite clear to make exhortions about NOT being overconfident and remaining awake.

Perhaps you should consider meditating on WHY the 'saved for heaven" man must worry about NOT being overconfident and falling "asleep" about working out his salvation in fear and trembling, and being told that faith alone is worthless, as nothing???

The simple Gospel message is to remain in Christ. False hope based upon something you did 20 years ago guarantees absolutely nothing -

Except, that if you fall away, your status NOW will be WORSE than before being saved, as we have discussed already.

How is that possible in your paradigm????

No, no one is "taking away" the confidence of salvation - we are affirming that one must HOLD ONTO it!

CONTINUE in Christ, that is the "simple Gospel". Not rest on your laurels.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Thus, without the fruit, you are not saved, are you...?

faith alone is not salvific, because then, there is no evidence, no proof. Thus, it is "dead faith".

Dead faith (faith without love) cannot save. Thus, faith alone does not save.

I can agree with that. But we mustn't get into the idea that Christ's death is not enough. I'm not saying that you're saying this, but I'm saying that it's easy to get into that kind of idea from here.

"Evidence and proof" are what man looks at.

Faith alone does save...dead faith is not true faith. Dead faith is a faith that has never partaken of life to begin with. In other words, people may say they believe, but Jesus says your belief is not sufficient unless it involves a new birth (life), a transformation which then leads to a life of obedience. Valid saving faith has always been verified by fruit. And a false dead faith is indicated by the absence of righteous actions. Many believe in God, but not unto salvation. They believe facts about God, facts about Chirst, but they manifest no real commitment to Christ. The changed life that comes with salvation is marked by true repentance and obedience. We see that genuine faith saves...that God sees into the heart, and repentance and new birth are what transforms.

 

[francisdesales]

Faith alone does save...

Where is the Scriptures that say this?

Never does anyone even imply that faith "alone" saves for eternal life. Merely stating it means nothing.

dead faith is not true faith.

"Dead" faith is faith, nevertheless, according to James. You ARE familiar with the English language, aren't you? The word "dead" is an adjective that describes the noun, faith. It tells us that it IS faith, but non-salvific, dead. The thinking person would then ask "what is needed to make faith SAVING, ALIVE"?

the answer, Paul and Jesus and James and John would say, Is LOVE!

You must ignore all of these men to claim "sola fide".

Without this love, you are nothing. How many times must I repeat this before it sinks in? Faith WITHOUT SOMETHING ELSE is NOTHING. Another author says "DEAD".

HOW CAN FAITH WITHOUT SOMETHING (LOVE) SAVE???? Faith that is dead is still called "faith". Look at the last line of James 2. He calls this faith without love, faith, just the same. But it doesn't save.

Thus, logic dictates that there is faith that saves and faith that does not save. In other words, a qualifier is needed. LOVE. Is love present? Something Absolutely necessary to qualify "faith" means that faith alone is false. faith without the qualifier is DEAD.

Dead faith is a faith that has never partaken of life to begin with.

Wrong. It is a description of one's love. James makes that clear, addressing "saved" Christians who choose NOT to love their poorer neighbors. Now, flash back to Jesus and Matthew 25. What is needed to enter eternal life and what is needed to be condemend? Acts of Love. That is James faith working in love.

When faith is not working in love, it is nothing.

Thus, faith alone is nothing.

In other words, people may say they believe, but Jesus says your belief is not sufficient unless it involves a new birth (life), a transformation which then leads to a life of obedience.

Yes, so without love, your admissions of faith are pointless. Now, contineu with this line of thought, and you'll see that faith alone is nothing...

Valid saving faith has always been verified by fruit.

[/quote]

And without the fruit, love, faith does not save.

FAITH WITHOUT LOVE DOES NOT SAVE.

Thanks for making this clear, you are buring the fallacy known as sola fide...

Regards

 

[Aaron the Tall]

This is from the first page:

Faith is a gift, but it can be destroyed by unrepentant sin.

Just wondering where this idea is found in the Bible?

The possibility of obeying God is a gift from God Himself. Thus, no one can boast, since a positive judgment of a man DEPENDS upon that gift being efficacious in that man.

How is that gift worked through us? Can we do good works because we are a new creation (as 2 Cor 5:17 indicates) or because we are a "better" person?

I ask because I'm not sure what you think happens when someone has initial faith in Christ? Protestants see salvation as an "event." Catholics see salvation as a "process." What would you say happens when someone has faith in Christ? How are they different? Are they transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of God (Colossians 1:13)? Is there a change in the spiritual nature of the individual? Would you say that this change is not a guarantee of heaven?

Finally, it seems to me that a Catholic doesn't know for sure if he is "saved" until he dies? How do you respond to this? What sort of a new creation are you if you are not born again, or "saved" the moment you believe?

 

[awaken]

The parable of the talents. The parable of the sheep and the goats. The parable of the foolish virgins.

Oh, how about your just read all of Matthew 25...

there is much more, but you can find it all readily laid out there...

As an aside, "works" are not works of the Law, but "works of Love".

Don't we first have to have salvation before we work it out?

You are avoiding my citations by asking me another question. I answered your question. In one chapter, the bible discusses THREE TIMES with nice parables that one must have good works to attain eternal life.

WITHOUT THOSE GOOD WORKS, "THEY" ARE CONDEMNED!!! Questioned answered.

First, address what Christ says - that good works are necessary in all of those parables BEFORE attaining eternal life. We are not talking about the "chronological order" of whether faith comes first before Love. We are talking about whether Love is required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven...

IS IT YOUR CONTENTION THAT WE CAN ENTER HEAVEN WITHOUT LOVE???

Note, carefully, in Matthew 25, the worker of evil is not being condemned... The one without love is.

Thus, faith alone condemns one to eternal damnation.

Sola fide is not only false, but condemns one to damnation...

Regards

This must be the post that you seem to be upset that I did not respond...

again a circle..I believe the parables are not about losing salvation..I believe they were not saved to start with. They were condemed because of unbelief..If we believe we will do...but doing does not save us..it just shows that we were never saved to start with~