Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[Hopeful 2]

All I and others have done is share the plain words of scripture that do not need interpretation but you've rejected every single one of them in favor of the twist you put on them in order to preserve your doctrine of sinless perfection. Like I say, differences regarding doctrine are to be expected, and even respected, but you've gone completly overboard. I actually feel kind of bad for you.

Don't feel bad for those in league with Jesus.
Feel bad for those dispensing accommodations for sinning.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Again, you ignore the scriptures I post and respond with more opinion.


Looks like the actual word of God has exposed your “theology” as being man made… at best.

I don't oppose the scriptures.
I oppose your one-sided interpretation of them.
You seem to be able to unravel what is written of those walking in darkness, but don't seem to be able to figure out whet is written of the man walking in God.
John is using an A-B, A-B, A-B system juxtaposing those who walk in sin with those who walk in God.
Verse 5, 7, and 9 refer to those walking in God.
Verses 6. 8,and 10 apply to those walking in sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The grain cannot change from rye to wheat.
Nor can God's seed change from bearing Godly fruit to devilish fruit.

You're still not getting it.

It's a planting of God right from the start. But it takes time for the head of grain to come to maturity.

"...first the stalk, then the head, then grain that ripens within..." Mark 4:28

But you claim that happened for you and for every other 'real' believer the moment they were born again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Feel bad for those dispensing accommodations for sinning.

It's not about making accommodations for sin. It's the reality of why born again people still sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Great scripture!
However the subject we are discussing is walking in the light vs walking in darkness.

God is the light, and there is no sin in Him.
Sin is the darkness, and there is no sin in Him.
If we walk in Him, there is no sin in us.
Were there sin in us, we would be walking in darkness.
Not in God.

Walking in the light does not mean walking in sinless perfection as you claim.

There you go saying there is sin in God again.
Stop that !

Walking in the light means walking in love.

Is anyone who is not walking in love, in God?
No.

He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 John 2:10-11
Claiming you are perfectly sinless since the day you were baptized is only deceiving yourself.

Being sinless allows me to walk in God, who is the light in 1 John 1.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Perfectly true.
If you are walking in sin/darkness.
But untrue if walking in God/light.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

Does the blood of Christ wash away sin?
Yes.
They why can't the washed say they have no sin?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You're still not getting it.

It's a planting of God right from the start. But it takes time for the head of grain to come to maturity.

"...first the stalk, then the head, then grain that ripens within..." Mark 4:28

But you claim that happened for you and for every other 'real' believer the moment they were born again.

I was born once of "rye" seed.
I was reborn of "wheat" seed.
I will never again bring forth rye's fruit.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It's not about making accommodations for sin. It's the reality of why born again people still sin.

If folks continue to sin, the reality is they didn't repent of sin and were not reborn of God's seed.

 

[JLB]

I don't oppose the scriptures.
I oppose your one-sided interpretation of them.
You seem to be able to unravel what is written of those walking in darkness, but don't seem to be able to figure out whet is written of the man walking in God.
John is using an A-B, A-B, A-B system juxtaposing those who walk in sin with those who walk in God.
Verse 5, 7, and 9 refer to those walking in God.
Verses 6. 8,and 10 apply to those walking in sin.

More gobldegoop without addressing the actual scriptures I gave.


If you want to live with sin, because you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the plain and clear words of scripture, when all that is required is for any of us to be forgiven and cleansed of our sin is to just simply humble ourselves and confess our sin, acknowledging our need rather than making Him to be a liar.

Again, here are the two options —

1. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8
2. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

I encourage you to choose option 2.

His blood was shed for you and I to be cleansed from our sin and remain in relationship with Him.


My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2






JLB

 

[donadams]

Good grief, man! Read the Parable! The planting of God doesn't start out with the mature head of grain. Stop twisting the word of God...again.

They all received the “free gift” of the seed, are all justified and declared righteous?

 

[donadams]

False fundamentalist, only.
As the real fundamentals are in the bible for the real Christians to use and manifest to he world.

Do you believe only fundamentals or essential doctrine?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The word 'justified' has two definitions. Context is how we know which definition is being used.

James is using the word in regard to being shown to be righteous. We know this by James 2:18.

Paul is using the word in regard to being made righteous. We know this by Philippians 3:9, Romans 3:21-22, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

This is why it is important to not confuse James' justification by works argument with Paul's justification by faith apart from works argument. They are not making the same argument about justification.

A man is made righteous by faith apart from works (Romans 4:6). That's Paul's argument. A man is shown to have the righteousness of faith by his works. That's James' argument (James 2:18). And so a man is justified by, both, faith and works (James 2:24). Faith makes you righteous. Works show you to be righteous by faith. In no way is James saying you become a righteous/saved person by doing works of faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They all received the “free gift” of the seed, are all justified and declared righteous?

Everybody who receives the word of God by faith are made righteous as a free gift of God's grace. Their works show us they have been made righteous by faith. Their works are not what made them righteous. Faith does that all by itself apart from works.

 

[donadams]

Everybody who receives the word of God by faith are made righteous as a free gift of God's grace. Their works show us they have been made righteous by faith. Their works are not what made them righteous. Faith does that all by itself apart from works.

All are saved then! Hallelujah!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All are saved then! Hallelujah!

No.
All who believe, receive, and retain the word of the gospel. That is who is saved.

1 John 2:24-25
1 Corinthians 15:1-2

This doesn't compute with you because "righteousness apart from works" is a stumbling block to you, which is what God intends it to be for those who prefer instead the comfort and security of their own righteous works and reject the truth. In your theology, you become a saved person at the end of this life after the successful completion of various rituals and deeds, if it is successful. That is a works justification theology. You have stumbled over the stumbling stone:

32...their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone Romans 9:32

So I don't get too excited when people reject "righteousness apart from works" because the message is designed to confuse and, thus, condemn those who prefer instead the false gospel of works righteousness. See, it's a test. The works righteousness gospel is what appeals to you, and so that's where your heart is. The faith righteousness gospel appeals to me, so that's where my heart is. And that is how God tests hearts and distinguishes between the goats and the sheep.

 

[RBDERRICK]

But you are lying if you claim to obey yet dismiss His Word.

Jesus does not appreciate lip service.

True. It cuts both ways. Some say they believe His word and do it not. Some say they do His word, but Jesus never said it.

Some rebellious children of Israel claimed to be serving the God of Israel by passing their children through the fire.

Some Christians claim to be keeping Christ's commandment by keeping a Sabbath day.

Some Pentecost women claim to be keeping the law of Christ by not cutting their hair.

 

[RBDERRICK]

How does doing righteous things make me righteous?

How does fishing make a fisherman.

Isn't it rather that I show myself to have the righteousness of faith by doing righteous things? James 2:18

This is a hair splitting, that Paul calls strifes about words.

If we believe all the words of the Bible, including any faith without works is dead, we wouldn't teach any faith without works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

29But desiring to justify himself, he said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Luke 10:29

What does 'justify' mean in this verse? Does it mean this man trying to make himself wise and understanding, or is he trying to show himself to be wise and understanding? Obviously, he is trying to show himself to be wise and understanding, not make himself that. The word justify is being used in accordance with definition #1 below, not #2:

1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.
2. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.

justify

Definition, Synonyms, Translations of justify by The Free Dictionary

www.thefreedictionary.com

You have to understand these two different definitions and usages of the word justify to understand the difference between Paul's and James' teaching about justification. They are NOT making the same argument. James is NOT saying you make yourself righteous by doing works of faith.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I agree that faith that has no works can't save you. I'm not in disagreement with James about that.

If we say faith that has no works save us, then we are.

What I am in disagreement with is the doctrine that says those who say they have faith but have no works can't be saved

Then the disagreement is with James, whose words you just repeated, without adding your own qualifiers to it.

because they failed to do the works that make a person righteous.

And here is the crux of being saved by faith without works.

It separates faith from works, not only when first saved, but always through life. It never allows what we do or don't do to have anything to do with being saved.

The Bible teaches those who are doing righteous are righteous with God. And so those that are not doing righteousness are not righteous with God.

That is Bible teaching. Other's teach that those doing and not doing righteousness can both be righteous with God by faith alone.

What they failed to do is have the faith that makes a person righteous.

True. Faith without works is dead and makes no man righteous.

So any imputed righteousness is only imagined. There is no separation in the Bible between faith and works, nor having imputed righteousness and being righteous.

In the Bible, neither faith nor imputed righteousness ever stands alone and apart from works and being rightous.

And so they do not have the works that righteous people do as a result of having been made righteous by faith -

Once again, you agree with only the doers of the word are justified with God, but you do not agree justification is by doing His word.

We are saved by grace, and we are justified by works. Therefore, If we are not justified by works, then we are not saved by grace.

It's a disingenuous word game to say on the hand, that we are saved with grace, but on the other hand we are not saved with works.

The word 'by' becomes a tool of manipulation.

That's why faith without works can't save you. The absence of works of faith shows that you have not been made righteous by faith,

Then don't teach faith without works can save us.

not that you failed to make yourself righteous by faith and works.

We fail to make ourselves a fisherman by not fishing, because we make ourselves a fisherman by fishing.

The effort to have and be something without doing it is hypothetical only. There is no such thing as believing we are a fisherman, before fishing. We can believe we want to be a fisherman, but we are not until we go fish.

Faith alone without works is hearing only, and does not save anyone by just hearing the gospel.

It's only hearing of fishermen, and claiming to be a fisherman without fishing.

Faith without works is faith by hearing only.

The Bible faith of Jesus that saves is the faith of hearing and doing the word.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You do not have faith and do good works to become righteous.

The Bible says otherwise.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Faith without works claims to be sons by faith, before becoming sons with works.

It's a natural minded error, that defines all works as bodily only.

You are made righteous through faith to do good works.

And those first works are in our spirit to resist the devil's thoughts for temptation, that he may flee from us.

Once we are born of the word of God, we immediately begin to the do those first good works, by immediately rejecting temptation, rather than receiving lust of the world.

The repentance of dead works begins within the heart first.

As you yourself acknowledge, you don't become a sheep by acting like a sheep.

True, not without the heart of a sheep.

You become a sheep, and then you act like a sheep because you are a sheep.

"And then acting" is the natural man seeing works outwardly only.

Natural sheep only act as sheep outwardly. They don't know they are sheep.

The analogy ends there. Men act as sheep of the Lord inwardly in the heart first. That is where faith in Jesus and obeying Him is never separated.

Disobedience with the flesh begins first with disobedience of the heart.

Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways. (Ps 95)(Heb 3)

The faith without works teaching, that is based upon works being solely of the body, does not discern the teaching of the Bible that works begin in the heart, and are judged as such by God.

Therefore, they oppose the Bible that faith without works is always dead. They can't believe that at face value, because they know that inner faith can be without outward works. They don't take into account how inner faith cannot be without inner works first.

We certainly do have inner faith at times, without doing anything outwardly. However with God's faith we are never believing Him without obeying Him inwardly.

The first commandment to love God with all the heart can only fulfilled by the inner first works of faith.

That good work begins immediately upon believing God's word with the heart.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we say faith that has no works save us, then we are.

Just because faith without works can not save a person (James 2:14) that does not mean you become a saved person by doing works of faith. It means you lack the evidece that shows you have faith (James 2:18) and by which Jesus will judge you as being a sheep, or not (Matthew 25:31-46).