Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[donadams]

No.
All who believe, receive, and retain the word of the gospel. That is who is saved.

1 John 2:24-25
1 Corinthians 15:1-2

This doesn't compute with you because "righteousness apart from works" is a stumbling block to you, which is what God intends it to be for those who prefer instead the comfort and security of their own righteous works and reject the truth. In your theology, you become a saved person at the end of this life after the successful completion of various rituals and deeds, if it is successful. That is a works justification theology. You have stumbled over the stumbling stone:

32...their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone Romans 9:32

So I don't get too excited when people reject "righteousness apart from works" because the message is designed to confuse and, thus, condemn those who prefer instead the false gospel of works righteousness. See, it's a test. The works righteousness gospel is what appeals to you, and so that's where your heart is. The faith righteousness gospel appeals to me, so that's where my heart is. And that is how God tests hearts and distinguishes between the goats and the sheep.

You said they are all righteous?

 

[Hopeful 2]

More gobldegoop without addressing the actual scriptures I gave.

I have addressed it over and over again.
There is no sin in God.
That means there are no sinners in God.
God is light, and no sinners walk in the Light.
All sinners walk in darkness; and they cannot say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin.
Those walking in God can say they have fellowship with God and that they have no sin.

If you want to live with sin, because you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the plain and clear words of scripture, when all that is required is for any of us to be forgiven and cleansed of our sin is to just simply humble ourselves and confess our sin, acknowledging our need rather than making Him to be a liar.

I didn't want to live in sin anymore and God provided repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins.
Now I can walk in the light, wherein is no sin.

Again, here are the two options —

1. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8
2. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Thanks for providing God's before-and-after for those who want to be free of sinning.

I encourage you to choose option 2.
His blood was shed for you and I to be cleansed from our sin and remain in relationship with Him.

Amen to that.
Choose option 2, and you too can say you have no sin !

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

I was once one of the "anyone's", but I availed myself of the Advocate and was washed of ALL my past sins by His blood.
Now I can say I have no sin.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Do you believe only fundamentals or essential doctrine?

I believe a lot more than the fundamentals.
I left babyhood a long time ago, thanks be to God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Just because faith without works can not save a person (James 2:14) that does not mean you become a saved person by doing works of faith. It means you lack the evidece that shows you have faith (James 2:18) and by which Jesus will judge you as being a sheep, or not (Matthew 25:31-46).

Those not doing works of faith, don't have faith.
If we Christians are (re)made faithful, who made those who continue to commit sin?
Not God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You said they are all righteous?

All who believe.

 

[donadams]

Then how could a all holy God unite with and conceive in a sinner?

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

You must be that Mary was immaculate! Amen!

Venial sin does not separate us from God’s grace only mortal (grevious, murder etc. serious nature) sins do

1. 1 John 5:16
   If any man see his brother sin a sinwhich is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sinunto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
2. 1 John 5:17
   All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

 

[grace2]

True. It cuts both ways. Some say they believe His word and do it not. Some say they do His word, but Jesus never said it.

You believe Jesus is God even though Jesus says His Father is His God.

So you are lying to God and Jesus claiming to be His follower.

True followers accept everything that Jesus says because they professed Jesus as their Lord.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I agree that you have to first have righteousness to then 'do' love and righteousness. And that righteousness that then does righteousness comes as the result of faith in God, not works.

You have an unhealthy adversity to the word 'works'.

In the Bible doing His righteousness is doing the works of His righteousness. The only works to avoid are doing the works of our own righteousness without faith in God.

Paul condemns all such works, having been a leading Jew. Paul never condemns the works of His righteousness we do, which are the works James says we are justified by.

What you're not getting is you don't become a person with faith, love, and righteousness by 'doing' those things.

We be that person by doing them. Once again, splitting hairs between becoming and being is just doctrinal word play.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

The Bible makes no difference between being sons and becoming sons.

With babes born of flesh, there is indeed an infancy period without works nor knowledge nor faith.

Being as new born babes in Christ does not include the natural infancy of babes. The word and Spirit of Christ are quick to do.

We are born of Christ, who is a grown resurrected man. There is no infancy phase where we do not righteousness as He is righteous.

Faith without works is a natural theology, that thinks natural analogies of spiritual things, includes natural rule over them.

Like the seed planted in the ground. Natural seed gestates in the ground without root nor fruit. But not the spiritual seed of Christ. We either take root and bear fruit immediately, or the devil comes and takes it away from our hearts.

Stop applying a natural mind to faith and works, and rather see them as quick in the Spirit, and you will stop trying to 'temporarily' separate faith of Christ from works of Christ.

You become those by being spiritually transformed when you believe and trust in God's promise of redemption through his Son Jesus Christ, apart from your works.

Once again, 'apart from works' is not in the Bible, except to say it is dead and cannot save nor justify any man.

And also, you speak of 'your' works as though they are works of our own without faith in Christ.

The only faith of Jesus that is forever apart from works, our our works of our own righteousness, which we have done before coming to Christ.

The true teaching of Jesus' faith without works, is that Jesus' faith is not with own own works of righteousness, which are filthy rags in sight of God.

Jesus' faith is never without His works of righteousness, which we now do.

The only faith of Jesus that is without works, is without works of our own righteousness without God.

You are not saved by your works.

Then the salvation you speak of is not with justification of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have an unhealthy adversity to the word 'works'.

Only in regard to saying that works of faith make a person righteous.

But Paul is clear that the faith through which one is made righteous apart from works is indeed the faith that works the obedience of love. Galatians 5:6

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith without works claims to be sons by faith, before becoming sons with works.

That's because you have to first become righteous with the righteousness that is from God in order to do works that righteous people do.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only in regard to saying that works of faith make a person righteous.

But Paul is clear that the faith through which one is made righteous apart from works is indeed the faith that works the obedience of love. Galatians 5:6

What makes a person righteous if not works of faith??
RBDERRICK is right. You do have an adversity to the word works.

I said it in a simple way some time ago...

WORKS WITHOUT FAITH ARE DEAD.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

We don't do good works because other men could see them and it proves we're saved, as you like to say.

We do good works because JESUS DEMANDED THAT WE DO.

I don't understand why this is so difficult to accept.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's because you have to first become righteous with the righteousness that is from God in order to do works that righteous people do.

I think we all agree to the above.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The word 'justified' has two definitions.

I've heard this before, with two 'faiths' being taught in the Bible.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

There are no verses teaching two 'justifications' by God.

Context is how we know which definition is being used.

James is using the word in regard to being shown to be righteous. We know this by James 2:18.

Paul is using the word in regard to being made righteous. We know this by Philippians 3:9, Romans 3:21-22, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

While I appreciate including context for proper teaching, you have the wrong context. The context of James is faith without works. The Context of Paul is works without faith.

Your effort to produce a teaching by context alone is faulty. We must first have the verifiable teaching to show it.

There is no doctrinal teaching of two justifications in the Bible, one by faith only, and the other by works.

The teaching of God by Paul and James is one justification of Christ by faith with works, and not by faith only.

This is why it is important to not confuse James' justification by works argument with Paul's justification by faith apart from works argument.

Once again, there is no argument of Paul for justification by faith apart from works. Paul speaks of justification by faith, not by faith without works.

You are quoting from your own book, not the Bible.

You write your own book, because you do not believe the Bible's words that justification is by works, and not by faith only.

Your contextual argument is based upon your own inserted doctrine of faith without works. There are not verses of the Bible ever speaking of two justifications, especially not different ones. Only your book as two different justifications in it.

They are not making the same argument about justification.

True. Paul is rebuking justification by works alone, and James is rebuking justification by faith only.

They are not making an argument about two separate justifications.

 

[RBDERRICK]

What makes a person righteous if not works of faith??
RBDERRICK is right. You do have an adversity to the word works.

I said it in a simple way some time ago...

WORKS WITHOUT FAITH ARE DEAD.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

Halleluiah. So simple and obvious. The leader of the Jews Paul rebukes his old religion of being justified by works only, and the leader of Christians James rebukes the new religion of being justified by faith alone.

Neither are true. Jesus's reformation is to come and put faith in the inward parts, that our works may be His righteousness in deed and in truth from a pure heart.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

We don't do good works because other men could see them and it proves we're saved, as you like to say.

Good point. They act like works are only to show others we are saved. And Jesus says works cannot do that, because only God sees the inner man, whether spiritually pure or filthy.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The truth is that our works are first proiven by God inwardly. Faith without works doctrine is of a natural theology, that only sees works as being outward only.

I don't understand why this is so difficult to accept.

The hidden secret is that faith without works teaching is not just a matter of 'correct' doctrine. It's a justification for being saved while doing unrighteousness. That faith without works is not just apart from works at salvation. It's kept apart from works for life.

That's why most of them will also say it's impossible to do righteously and walk as Jesus walked on earth.

They always allow for some repeating 'sin time'.

 

[donadams]

You cannot even have faith without God’s help and grace!

There can be no salutary act without grace!
Thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

You cannot even have faith without God’s help and grace!

There can be no salutary act without grace!
Thanks

This goes without saying.
I believe we all agree that without God nothing is possible for us.
It's God's grace that saves us and the Holy Spirit that dwells in us to strengthen us
to be as God would want us to be.

 

[GodsGrace]

Halleluiah. So simple and obvious. The leader of the Jews Paul rebukes his old religion of being justified by works only, and the leader of Christians James rebukes the new religion of being justified by faith alone.

Neither are true. Jesus's reformation is to come and put faith in the inward parts, that our works may be His righteousness in deed and in truth from a pure heart.

I'd go so far as to say that there's not too much difference regarding works in comparing the Mosaic Covenant to the New Covenant. They both require works/good deeds (for those that hate the word works), the difference being that in the NC the law is written in the heart (Jeremiah, Ezekiel) and we have the Holy Spirit INDWELLING to empower us.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:


Good point. They act like works are only to show others we are saved. And Jesus says works cannot do that, because only God sees the inner man, whether spiritually pure or filthy.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The truth is that our works are first proiven by God inwardly. Faith without works doctrine is of a natural theology, that only sees works as being outward only.

Right. Good point.
For God works cannot be outward...they must come from the heart. Thus obedience of faith (Romans 1) and the Law of Love which Jesus taught His disciples...Love God, Love neighbor, Love yourself.

Love covers a multitude of sins.
Love causes us to treat others as we would want them to treat us.

The hidden secret is that faith without works teaching is not just a matter of 'correct' doctrine. It's a justification for being saved while doing unrighteousness. That faith without works is not just apart from works at salvation. It's kept apart from works for life.

That's why most of them will also say it's impossible to do righteously and walk as Jesus walked on earth.

They always allow for some repeating 'sin time'.

I've known the other member for years and I doubt the above is his reason for believing as he does.
However, yes, I'm sure that some depend TOO MUCH on God's grace and goodness.

No where in the NT is faith ALONE taught.
The Early Christians did not teach this and is not in any writing I can think of.

 

[JLB]

I have addressed it over and over again.
There is no sin in God.

You have refused to address the scripture, and what the scripture so plainly states.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8


Although its true for God, its not true for Christians.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

You keep stating your opinion and circumventing the truth about Christians.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:10



JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

You cannot even have faith without God’s help and grace!

There can be no salutary act without grace!
Thanks

Isn't that Calvinism ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You have refused to address the scripture, and what the scripture so plainly states.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

This is John's address to those walking in darkness-sin.
It doesn't apply to those who walk in the light-God.

Although its true for God, its not true for Christians.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

If it is a lie to say you have no sin, then you have sin...and walking in darkness.

You keep stating your opinion and circumventing the truth about Christians.

Is there sin in the light, which is God ?

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:10

All have sinned.
Some turn from sin, and confess their sins, and are then washed of their past sin by the blood of Christ at their water baptism into Christ and into His death.
Then they can walk in the light and have fellowship with God.





H2