Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[GodsGrace]

I just don't see this parable as a reality.
Can a man in what is portrayed as hell, really talk to anyone in what is portrayed as heaven?
If that were the case, how could anyone in heaven ever get any peace?
Ex-friends and relatives would never leave them alone !

LOL
I totally agree with your last sentence, which is why I have a problem with praying to the saints or persons in heaven.
Of course the CC believes they can hear us, but for the reason you've stated I always doubted this.

Anyway, most theologians agree that the story in Luke 15 is speaking of real persons because it's the only time Jesus mentions someone's name. Why give someone a name if there is no such person. For instance, in the parable of the Lost Son, Jesus refers to persons as father, son, brother, servants, etc.

Also, it's established that the gates of heaven were closed until Jesus death (or maybe the resurrection, can't remember)
so where were all the saved souls during the time they awaited for Jesus sacrifice? Abraham's Bossom would be a place of comfort, but not heaven, as depicted in Luke 15.
Matthew 27:51
51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

This would be the time when the gates were opened.
A new relationship with God would begin.
The gates of heaven are opened.
(I guess it was at the death).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You don’t do “faith”???

Faith is a noun.
'Believe' is the verb form of fath.

Abraham believed God would do what he promised and it was credited to him as righteousness. That is what he 'did' to be credited righteousness. He believed. Romans 4:21-24.

You say you faithfully do something and it is credited to you as righteousness. That is the works justification gospel condemned in scripture that can not justify you.

You are by definition an unbeliever. You do not believe and trust in the righteousness that God credits to a person when they believe the promise.

You are trusing in the righteousness of your faithful works and rituals which you think is the righteousness that will rescue you from the coming wrath. It will not. You are not born again by faith in the promise of God. And so you will not pass safely through the coming judgement. The righteousness of your rituals and deeds will not protect you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Verses that oppose “faith alone”!

Mk 16:16 faith and baptism

1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"

Deut 6:4 love of God
Matt 19:17 commandments
Matt 16:25 lose you’re life / rev 12:11
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Matt 24:13 endure
Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
rom 10:10 faith & confession
1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Phil 1:29 faith and suffering rom 8:17 2 Timothy 2:12
1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
James 2:24 faith & works
Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
Rev 14:12 commandments & patience

Rev 12:11 over came by the blood of the Lamb not by “faith alone”!

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible if baptism is rejected!

NONE of these things credit righteousness to you except having faith in God's promise. That's what you don't get. You are trusting in the righteousness of your deeds and rituals to rescue you from the coming wrath. They will not. You will be lost. You trust in a works justification gospel. One that can not save you.

 

[Hopeful 2]

F we still have to resist sin and temptation?

Oh yeah.
But resistance is always available to us by the escapes written of in 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
Thanks be to God.

 

[Maliah inked here]

I just thank The Lord for this gift of life, eternal life.

It is Jesus that sits upon this mercy seat. Here I submit myself. I come boldly to this throne of grace to obtain grace and mercy in times of need to overcome.

I am born again by his grace and mercy and because I am, I daily by his spirit I am compelled to overcome the flesh the world and the devil and to finish my course doing His will for me.

I can only accomplish this by remaining in Him and faithfully following Him.

Because I'm His, this is what I do and must do until the end.

 

[GodsGrace]

NONE of these things credit righteousness to you except having faith in God's promise. That's what you don't get. You are trusting in the righteousness of your deeds and rituals to rescue you from the coming wrath. They will not. You will be lost. You trust in a works justification gospel. One that can not save you.

Then why waste the time to list all these extra things besides faith?

Only Faith saves you....

But

Faith Alone....does not keep you saved.

You must do all that the NT taught.
Not what someone in the past couple of hundred years decided was the truth...
And especially the last 70 years or so.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then why waste the time to list all these extra things besides faith?

I agree.
donadams should list those in a thread about the various things Christians are commanded to do. But in a thread about how to be justified they are unnecessary because not a one of them justifies a person. Believing the promise of God justifies a person, all by itself, just as that was true for Abraham our example of justification apart from works.

Only Faith saves you....

But

Faith Alone....does not keep you saved.

Only faith justifies you.

And

Only by faith do you remain justified.

You must do all that the NT taught.

No question about it...just not in order to be justified.

Ultimately, not doing what is taught in the NT shows that you have not been justified by faith apart from works, or that you were justified by faith apart from works, but fell back into unbelief and are no longer justified in Christ.

Not what someone in the past couple of hundred years decided was the truth...
And especially the last 70 years or so.

With the exception of what the Catholic church changed, the various commandments of God have not changed. Our Bibles are still the same set of commands that it was 1700 years ago. What has changed is man's doctrines concerning those commands. Some say you have to do these to be saved. Some say you don't have to do these to be saved. Others say you don't have to do any of them to be saved. What you don't have to do is do any of them, except believe, to be justified. Then you will have love for God and power to do what He commands. And you will have the evidence of that love that Jesus will use to judge you as being a sheep when he returns, and you will enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is nothing we can do???
Really?

Correct.

There is no amount of good works or rituals that you can do to be justified. Justification is entirely on the basis of having faith in the promise of God about Jesus. If you don't believe this then you have stumbled over the stumbling block that is Christ. To some he is a stumbling block. To others he is the power and wisdom of God for righteousness:

23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,c 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:23-24

30It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”e 1 Corinthians 1:30-31

 

[donadams]

Correct.

There is no amount of good works or rituals that you can do to be justified. Justification is entirely on the basis of having faith in the promise of God about Jesus. If you don't believe this then you have stumbled over the stumbling block that is Christ. To some he is a stumbling block. To others he is the power and wisdom of God for righteousness:

23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,c 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:23-24

30It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”e 1 Corinthians 1:30-31

Correct.

There is no amount of good works or rituals that you can do to be justified. Justification is entirely on the basis of having faith in the promise of God about Jesus. If you don't believe this then you have stumbled over the stumbling block that is Christ. To some he is a stumbling block. To others he is the power and wisdom of God for righteousness:

23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,c 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:23-24

30It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”e 1 Corinthians 1:30-31

Your premise:
Saved by grace through faith

Do all receive the same grace?
Same justification?
Same righteousness?
Same holiness?
Same glory in heaven?

Or can grace, righteousness, holiness, and glory be increased?
Thanks

 

[JLB]

Is there sin in God?

There is no sin in God.

Unfortunately for you are your “doctrine” of sinless perfection, this scripture pertains to those who walk in the light.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin

Christians who walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses them of their sin.

Walking in the light doesn’t mean sinless, it means you walk in love, and if you sin, you confess your sin and are forgiven.

He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:10-11


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8


Do you believe you have no sin?


The way Christian’s are forgiven their sin is by confessing their sin to God.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9





JLB

 

[JLB]

Your premise:
Saved by grace through faith

Do all receive the same grace?
Same justification?
Same righteousness?
Same holiness?
Same glory in heaven?

Or can grace, righteousness, holiness, and glory be increased?
Thanks

Do you believe you can be saved by doing rituals or good works?

 

[JLB]

So, there IS sin in God.
I disagree.

I wish the translators had made 1 John 1:7 two verses instead of one.
Maybe than there would be less insistence that there is sin in God.
Even with verse 5's..."that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.", men still insist there is darkness in God.

Please don’t try and twist my words.

Please don’t misrepresent what I say.


Your doctrine is false, and you certainly have proven to most everyone here that you are in serious error.

• But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Those who walk in the light are mentioned in this verse.

Those who walk in darkness are not mentioned, yet all you keep talking about is walking in darkness.


You wont quote scripture because the scriptures teaches the truth.

Here is some truth for you —

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7-9

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Based on this scripture, do you believe Christians can confess their sins and be forgiven?

Yes?
No?





JLB

 

[Free]

Your premise:
Saved by grace through faith

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

Do you agree or disagree with Paul? If so, why?

Do all receive the same grace?
Same justification?
Same righteousness?
Same holiness?
Same glory in heaven?

Or can grace, righteousness, holiness, and glory be increased?
Thanks

What does that have to do with whether or not we are saved by grace through faith?

 

[Hopeful 2]

There is no sin in God.

Right.
Now you must realize that those who need cleansing are not in God !

Unfortunately for you are your “doctrine” of sinless perfection, this scripture pertains to those who walk in the light.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin

As there is no sin in God, (no darkness in light), why can't you see that those needing cleansing are in darkness and not in God?

Christians who walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses them of their sin.

More like have been cleansed.

Walking in the light doesn’t mean sinless, it means you walk in love, and if you sin, you confess your sin and are forgiven.

If walking in God doesn't mean sinless, then there is sin in God.

He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:10-11

You post scripture that denies your POV of sin being in God.
Even though you said "there is no sin in God" above, you keep writing that the cleansing of sin is for those in God.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Perfectly true...for those walking in sin.

Do you believe you have no sin?

Having no sin is essential to walking in the light.
Every convert who has ever lived was 100% free of sin after their water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Only the truly repentant remain in the light...which is God.
I walk in the light, so I can't/don't have any sin on me.

The way Christian’s are forgiven their sin is by confessing their sin to God.

Those in Christ, God, the light, don't commit sin.
Sin manifests a walk in darkness.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Confession of past sin is the last step before baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Confess, get washed, walk in the light-God.

JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Please don’t try and twist my words.

Please don’t misrepresent what I say.


Your doctrine is false, and you certainly have proven to most everyone here that you are in serious error.

• But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Those who walk in the light are mentioned in this verse.

Those who walk in darkness are not mentioned, yet all you keep talking about is walking in darkness.


You wont quote scripture because the scriptures teaches the truth.

Here is some truth for you —

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7-9

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Based on this scripture, do you believe Christians can confess their sins and be forgiven?

Yes?
No?

Christians don't commit sin.
Only those walking in darkness commit sin.

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

 

[donadams]

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

Do you agree or disagree with Paul? If so, why?


What does that have to do with whether or not we are saved by grace through faith?

1st who’s faith? Eph 2:8
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Grace by faith alone?

Is faith the same as belief?

Thanks

 

[WIP]

Grace by faith alone?

Is faith the same as belief?

Thanks

Not necessarily. I can believe in a God but I may not have faith in Him. Satan and his demons are a good example of this as expressed in James 2:19 where he wrote, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" They believe but do not put their faith in God.

I wonder though. Can I have faith in God without believing? I don't think so but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do all receive the same grace?

There is the grace of God in matters of health, and wealth, and spiritual calling and gift. God's grace towards us in those things varies. But the grace of God in justification does not vary one to another because it is the righteousness of God that each of us has received and by which we are declared righteous, so that no one can boast.

Same justification?

Since all who believe the promise have the righteousness of God credited to their account by which they are declared righteous all have the same justification.

Same righteousness?

All who have believed the promise have the righteousness of God credited to them, so all who believe have the same righteousness - the righteousness of God.

Same holiness?

Since we are all at different stages of growth and maturity in the faith we all are at different levels of holy living.

I've been saved now for 37 years, and so I don't struggle with some sins that, perhaps, a newer convert is still learning to master.

So, no, we are not all at the same level of holiness.

Same glory in heaven?

No.
Some among us, because of being more willing and able to submit to God's particular will for them, and having different callings and gifts are going to be praised and rewarded more for what they did in this life.

 

[donadams]

Not necessarily. I can believe in a God but I may not have faith in Him. Satan and his demons are a good example of this as expressed in James 2:19 where he wrote, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" They believe but do not put their faith in God.

I wonder though. Can I have faith in God without believing? I don't think so but maybe I'm wrong.

And grace received by “Faith alone”?