Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[GodsGrace]

Their sins were cleansed so they could enter into the light, as there is no sin in God.
You are saying there is sin in God by saying the sinners in God keep getting washed.

The Samaritan was a made up character.

Hi H,
Two points:

1. Do we go to God and become right,
Or do we have to become right first and then go to Him?

2. All of Jesus' parables used made up characters (except one), that is no reason to dismiss their importance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Still no quote from Paul about any faith apart from works. That's your addition to his words.

Here are Paul's words:

22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Romans 3:22

6And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works Romans 4:6

"Righteousness (from God through faith) apart from works." Romans 4:6

 

[GodsGrace]

Here are Paul's words:

22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Romans 3:22

6And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works Romans 4:6

"Righteousness (from God through faith) apart from works." Romans 4:6

Funny J,
It's just saying that we are saved by faith.
You ARE adding to the verses.

Righteousness comes THROUGH FAITH to all who believe.
JUSTIFICATION: Eph 2:8
NOT BY WORKS....

Righteousness is never through WORKS ALONE.
Works alone do not save.

Faith ALONE does not save.
But obedience also.

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

We not delivered from the law of God, to no longer do it, but we are delivered from the power of the law to condemn us, because we're not doing it.

Jesus destroys transgressing the law. Some Christians destroy the law itself.

Transgressing the law is no longer condemned, because the law is made evil.

They actually teach that doing the law of Christ is now sin, and only those dismissing the law are guiltless when doing works of the flesh.

Yes!
I've come across this many times in these threads.
A person will actually, plainly, state that if I'm following "the law", then I am lost because I'm not trusting in Jesus.
I don't know any verse where Jesus states such an idea.
I just remember a whole bunch of commands He left us with,,,,
all covered by the Great Commandment.
Matthew 22:37...

It's the mystery Babylon's way of changing meanings and words and times and laws.

The Bible teaches works by the law without faith are useless to justify a man. They say keeping the law, whether by faith or not, is now sinful.

Right.
Quite a difference.

Yes. We cannot being loving our neighbor, without first loving God, and we cannot be loving God without loving our neighbor.

The key is that we can only love God with a whole pure heart. Half hearted love of God with lust in the heart, is not loving God at all.

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?


I understand this, that not all trusting in faith without works, also openly confess continued works of the flesh. However, the great majority do, and I have only found one that teaches after 'initial' salvation by faith alone, doing righteousness and good works must begin immediately in order to be saved.

Sure. This is the difference between Justification and Sanctification.
S begins immediately after J.
I do want to say that we also grow in our faith.
We might take some time to understand one thing or another - it took me some time to understand about forgiving, for instance - but we do need to at least grow and always TRY to do better, as Jesus would want.

A disciple is a follower.
If we're not following, we can't be a disciple.
Jesus said to pick up our cross daily,
some don't want a cross.

The problem is that we do answer to God for what we minister to others. And if our teaching is so corrupt, that others practicing it continue in works of the flesh, then we too will be destroyed with them.

I take James 3:1 very seriously. (I taught kids).
1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

The false prophetess Jezebel in Rev 2 is warned by Jesus for teaching His servants how to fornicate. He does not say she herself was doing it. We can see how most false teachers, that excuse sinning doctrinally, themselves live outwardly well. They are not forincators, drunkards, thieves, etc... but their doctrine justifies them doing it by faith alone, and by teaching all sins past, present, and future are already forgiven.



They depend too much on their personal doctrine about grace and goodness, that the Bible does not teach.

Exactly. Other than taught as being dead and can save no man.

Actually, we have to know some did, otherwise, James would not have needed to rebuke it. Also, the results of such teaching is also rebuked. That would be the promises of liberty in licentiousness with grace abounding.

Believe me. The doctrine of faith alone entered into the church right alongside Judaizing. In the later letters and books of the NT such things had to be rebuked.

Agreed on all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Once again, the doctrinal effort to become something without doing it, is as believing to become a fisherman without fishing.

God called childless Abram the father of many nations and changed his name to Abraham before he had any children:

17As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”d He is our father in the presence of God, in whom he believed, the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not yet exist. Romans 4:17

Abraham believed God when he blessed him and made him what he had not yet become. That's why God declared him righteous:

18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”e 19Without weakening in his faith, he acknowledged the decrepitness of his body (since he was about a hundred years old) and the lifelessness of Sarah’s womb. 20Yet he did not waver through disbelief in the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God was able to do what He had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”f Romans 4:18-22

Paul did not say he was declared righteous for what he did, but rather because of what he believed about his future, all by itself, apart from and without works.

Faith alone is dead.

Yes, faith alone is dead.
There is no disagreement about that for what that actually means.
It does not mean you are transformed into a righteous person and declared righteous by faith and works.

The argument is, you don't need works to be declared righteous. That happens entirely on the basis of faith, apart from works, as I have shown you - Romans 3:22, Romans 4:6.

So, works are necessary, but not to make you righteous. They are necessary to validate your faith as being genuine (James 2:18, Genesis 22:12). For surely, Jesus himself will use your works to judge you as being a sheep or a goat (Matthew 25:34-36). And, of course, they are necessary to make your faith productive and to actually be useful, practically speaking, to ourselves and others (James 2:14-16).

The absence of works does not mean you failed to add works to your faith in order to become righteous. Ultimiately, the absence of works means the absence of the faith by which God declares a person righteous and, therefore, eligible for salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Righteousness is never through WORKS ALONE.

Romans 4:18-22 tells us exactly why Abraham was credited as righteous:

18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”e 19Without weakening in his faith, he acknowledged the decrepitness of his body (since he was about a hundred years old) and the lifelessness of Sarah’s womb. 20Yet he did not waver through disbelief in the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God was able to do what He had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”f

He was not declared righteous because he did something. He was declared righteous because he BELIEVED something.

Works don't cause God to credit righteousness to you. That is the works justification gospel condemned in scripture. And Paul is very clear, that is a gospel that can not justify! Please see the light on this!

 

[JLB]

Israel, going about to establish their own righteousness by attempting to keep the law, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.

The righteousness of God comes about by faith.

Rom 1:17, For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

justbyfaith


Salvation is received by grace through faith.

Faith comes to us by hearing God speak a word to us, directly or indirectly.


Once a person hears the word and receives faith, it is activated and made complete by obedience. Obedience to the word (by which we receive faith) is done by grace; the God given ability to obey.


Grace is something as well as Someone.


Grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace.


Can we discuss these components of faith?




JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

You have added your own words to this scripture in substitution of the words actual used.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


This scripture only pertains to those who walk in the light.



JLB

Is there sin in God?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Again you make up your own words and add them to the scripture and change the scripture to suit your doctrine

"enter" is not mentioned.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Walk in the light refers to people in the light as a perpetual lifesyle; a walk.

Again this scripture pertains to those who walk in the light.


JLB

Is there sin in God?

 

[Hopeful 2]

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


This scripture refers to those who walk in the light and have their sins cleansed while walking in the light.


JLB

So, there IS sin in God.
I disagree.

I wish the translators had made 1 John 1:7 two verses instead of one.
Maybe than there would be less insistence that there is sin in God.
Even with verse 5's..."that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.", men still insist there is darkness in God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi H,
Two points:
1. Do we go to God and become right,
Or do we have to become right first and then go to Him?

We go to Him for righteousness.
He provided the way for us to, as 1 John 1:7 says, walk in the light.
It is by the washing of past sins by the blood of Christ.

2. All of Jesus' parables used made up characters (except one), that is no reason to dismiss their importance.

Which one do think is not really a parable?
(BTW, I don't dismiss any of them.)

 

[GodsGrace]

We go to Him for righteousness.
He provided the way for us to, as 1 John 1:7 says, walk in the light.
It is by the washing of past sins by the blood of Christ.

Agreed. It sounded like you said the opposite.
I didn't think you would.

Which one do think is not really a parable?
(BTW, I don't dismiss any of them.)

Luke 15?
The rich man and Lazarus.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Agreed. It sounded like you said the opposite.
I didn't think you would.


Luke 15?
The rich man and Lazarus.

I just don't see this parable as a reality.
Can a man in what is portrayed as hell, really talk to anyone in what is portrayed as heaven?
If that were the case, how could anyone in heaven ever get any peace?
Ex-friends and relatives would never leave them alone !

 

[donadams]

By being forgiven.
Forgiveness is what removes sin guilt.

Acts 22:16? Matt 5:7?

 

[donadams]

By getting him to turn from sin permanently and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
God put the free gift on the table.
It is our JOB, DUTY, PRIVELEGE, & HONOR, to accept it and live it until the end.

F we still have to resist sin and temptation?

 

[donadams]

True.

Thanks Agent Smart!

Right Chief!

The old bug in a rug trick!

Would you believe we cannot even have one good thought without God’s help?
Would you believe apart from me you can do nothing Jn 15:5

Don’t forget “the cone of silence”

Satan is the ruler of chaos!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Acts 22:16? Matt 5:7?

I am aware that you think you are absolved of sin guilt by doing something. You serve a works justification gospel.

You fail to consider the whole counsel of scripture that explains that the doing of rituals and deeds is not why God declares a person righteous, but rather by believing his promise of future blessing through His Son - Romans 4:21-22. Apart from what you do - Romans 4:6.

 

[donadams]

I am aware that you think you are absolved of sin guilt by doing something. You serve a works justification gospel.

You fail to consider the whole counsel of scripture that explains that the doing of rituals and deeds is not why God declares a person righteous, but rather by believing his promise of future blessing through His Son - Romans 4:21-22. Apart from what you do - Romans 4:6.

You don’t do “faith”???

 

[donadams]

Verses that oppose “faith alone”!

Mk 16:16 faith and baptism

1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"

Deut 6:4 love of God
Matt 19:17 commandments
Matt 16:25 lose you’re life / rev 12:11
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Matt 24:13 endure
Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
rom 10:10 faith & confession
1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Phil 1:29 faith and suffering rom 8:17 2 Timothy 2:12
1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
James 2:24 faith & works
Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
Rev 14:12 commandments & patience

Rev 12:11 over came by the blood of the Lamb not by “faith alone”!

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible if baptism is rejected!

 

[donadams]

Religion says do!

Christianity says done!

There is nothing we can do???
Really?


Does the will of God:
Those who hear the Word of God and do it!
Ez 36:25-27
Matt 7:21
Matt 12:50
Mk 3:35
Lk 1:45
Lk 8:21
Lk 11:28
Jn 5:30
Jn7:17
Rom 12:2
Rev 17:7

Doer of the word

James 1:22-23

1 Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Keep my commandments:
Matt 28:20
Jn 14:21

Things we must do:

Matt 5:8
Matt 7:14 narrow road leads to life
Jn 15:1-5 abide in Him
Lk 1:4 be instructed
Acts 2:38 acts 8:36-38 Matt 28:19 Jn 3:5 Jn 3:22 ez 36:25 baptism
2 thes 1:8 obedience


Must repent and do penance
Matt 3:2
Matt 3:8
Matt 4:17
Matt 9:13
Matt 16:24
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19

Must believe and continue in a state of believing:
Jn3:16

Receive Christ: Jn 1:12
Put on Christ: gal 3:27

Endure to the end:
Matt 24:13
Mark 13:13
Rev 2:26
Heb 3:14
Heb 6:11
Romans 11:22
Colossians 1:21-23
Hebrews 12:22-25
Hebrews 6:4
Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39
Hebrews 3:4-6
1 John 2:24-25
2 John 8-9
Galatians 5:2-4
2 Timothy 2:11-13


1 pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

The end (not the beginning) of faith is salvation!