SALVATION IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

  • CFN has a new look, using the Eagle as our theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • CFN welcomes a new contributing member!

    Please welcome Beetow to our Christian community.

    Blessings in Christ, and we pray you enjoy being a member here

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

I don't know any priest that gives the three Hail Marys you're talking about except maybe to children.
To adults they many times will go over some verses in scripture that may pertain to the sin and help the person in some way or other that is personal.
I know this is off topic but from my own experience, this is one of the things that confused me and still does. Confession is Scriptural for James tells us to, "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed." (James 5:16 NKJV) It is extremely rare for anyone, Catholic or otherwise, to confess their sins to one another. At least in the Catholic confessional, the confessions are made to a priest but in my Lutheran church it is rare indeed, if not unheard of.

In the confessional, after the priest gave absolution, he always included penance that involved praying the Hail Mary X number of times and/or the Lord's Prayer X number of times. This confused me for a couple reasons. First, it was repetitive prayer, not in the sense that I was being persistent in my request to God but just repeating the prayers. Second, I've always understood prayer as a privilege that we could have a conversation with God Himself. I have never understood prayer as being a form of punishment but that is exactly what penance is. Penance by definition is self-inflicted punishment. Why would I need to punish myself for something that has been absolved? Have I been forgiven or not? This has always been very confusing for me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jaybo and Cooper
I know this is off topic but from my own experience, this is one of the things that confused me and still does. Confession is Scriptural for James tells us to, "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed." (James 5:16 NKJV) It is extremely rare for anyone, Catholic or otherwise, to confess their sins to one another. At least in the Catholic confessional, the confessions are made to a priest but in my Lutheran church it is rare indeed, if not unheard of.

In the confessional, after the priest gave absolution, he always included penance that involved praying the Hail Mary X number of times and/or the Lord's Prayer X number of times. This confused me for a couple reasons. First, it was repetitive prayer, not in the sense that I was being persistent in my request to God but just repeating the prayers. Second, I've always understood prayer as a privilege that we could have a conversation with God Himself. I have never understood prayer as being a form of punishment but that is exactly what penance is. Penance by definition is self-inflicted punishment. Why would I need to punish myself for something that has been absolved? Have I been forgiven or not? This has always been very confusing for me.
The practice of confessing sins to a priest is not based on James 5;16 but on John 20:22-23
“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
By this we understand that Jesus gave the apostles, the leaders of the Church, the authority to forgive sins in his name. They, and their successors, give that authority to priests.

Sin is primarily an offence against God, but sin also has other effects.
We damage our relationship with the Church
We damage ourselves spiritually
We may have caused an offence against our neighbour

Whilst Jesus atoned for the offence against God we must play some part in repairing the other effects of sin. This is where penance comes into it.

From the Catechism
1459 Many sins wrong our neighbour. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbour. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Christ_empowered
just...a side note...

I find a lot of modern, USA (not criticizing the USA...I live in the usa, this is what I know...I think it's true of Protestantism, in general...) Protestantism...

a bit -too- individualistic? Churches split, people "vote with their feet" and go somewhere else, ministers get involved in politics and fired and moved about....

is the RCC better, in that regard? it seems so to me, but I'm 110%+ an outsider. I remember...suicide rates -were- lower among RCC (and lowest amongst practicing Jews), and the theory was that RCC doctrine and practice integrated people into cohesive communities better. And...

social sciences stuff aside, I think that's a more Scriptural approach to Christianity than -some- of what I've seen coming out of the more conservative (center-right all the way to...well, far right of that...) Protestant churches. And...

yeah. sorry to ramble. your post about the ill effects of sin upon -others- (brings to mind the concept of the common good, btw) struck a chord with me, and...yeah. thanks. :-)
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace
just...a side note...

I find a lot of modern, USA (not criticizing the USA...I live in the usa, this is what I know...I think it's true of Protestantism, in general...) Protestantism...

a bit -too- individualistic? Churches split, people "vote with their feet" and go somewhere else, ministers get involved in politics and fired and moved about....

is the RCC better, in that regard? it seems so to me, but I'm 110%+ an outsider. I remember...suicide rates -were- lower among RCC (and lowest amongst practicing Jews), and the theory was that RCC doctrine and practice integrated people into cohesive communities better. And...

social sciences stuff aside, I think that's a more Scriptural approach to Christianity than -some- of what I've seen coming out of the more conservative (center-right all the way to...well, far right of that...) Protestant churches. And...

yeah. sorry to ramble. your post about the ill effects of sin upon -others- (brings to mind the concept of the common good, btw) struck a chord with me, and...yeah. thanks. :)
Apart from the "RCC" what about the Catholic Church?
See:- Catholic Church (CC) vs Roman Catholic Church (RCC)
 
Could you explain this better?

You stated:
Jesus is salvation that the world receives through Mary.
I'll try.
Jesus didn't come to be our savior He came as our savior. He didn't bring salvation He is salvation. His very person is the gift rather than a person with a gift. I hope that clarifies some?
 
I know this is off topic but from my own experience, this is one of the things that confused me and still does. Confession is Scriptural for James tells us to, "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed." (James 5:16 NKJV) It is extremely rare for anyone, Catholic or otherwise, to confess their sins to one another. At least in the Catholic confessional, the confessions are made to a priest but in my Lutheran church it is rare indeed, if not unheard of.
James 5:16 is speaking about confessing to someone for their forgiveness.
Also, if we harm the church in some way, we should ask forgiveness of the elders.
I believe James is speaking about this type of forgiveness...when we could help each other when we feel God has not forgiven us, or reasons of this type.

In the confessional, after the priest gave absolution, he always included penance that involved praying the Hail Mary X number of times and/or the Lord's Prayer X number of times. This confused me for a couple reasons. First, it was repetitive prayer, not in the sense that I was being persistent in my request to God but just repeating the prayers.

I really don't believe the new priests are doing this anymore.
Even older priests that I know have stopped this.
(unless they feel the person needs to pray for some reason or other).

Second, I've always understood prayer as a privilege that we could have a conversation with God Himself. I have never understood prayer as being a form of punishment but that is exactly what penance is. Penance by definition is self-inflicted punishment. Why would I need to punish myself for something that has been absolved? Have I been forgiven or not? This has always been very confusing
Right.
The prayer was not a punishment.
It was to make you stop and think and speak to God.
Many years ago Catholics prayed by rote, this has since changed and there is a lot of free speaking when praying...unless there are prayers for certain reasons and at certain times of the day.

I agree that some practices are rather confusing.
I believe the church is trying to change.
 
I'll try.
Jesus didn't come to be our savior He came as our savior. He didn't bring salvation He is salvation. His very person is the gift rather than a person with a gift. I hope that clarifies some?
Right.
But you stated that salvation came from Jesus THROUGH Mary.
I wanted to know what you understand this to mean.

(your post no. 42)
 
just...a side note...

I find a lot of modern, USA (not criticizing the USA...I live in the usa, this is what I know...I think it's true of Protestantism, in general...) Protestantism...

a bit -too- individualistic? Churches split, people "vote with their feet" and go somewhere else, ministers get involved in politics and fired and moved about....

is the RCC better, in that regard? it seems so to me, but I'm 110%+ an outsider. I remember...suicide rates -were- lower among RCC (and lowest amongst practicing Jews), and the theory was that RCC doctrine and practice integrated people into cohesive communities better. And...

social sciences stuff aside, I think that's a more Scriptural approach to Christianity than -some- of what I've seen coming out of the more conservative (center-right all the way to...well, far right of that...) Protestant churches. And...

yeah. sorry to ramble. your post about the ill effects of sin upon -others- (brings to mind the concept of the common good, btw) struck a chord with me, and...yeah. thanks. :)
Hey CE
You're gonna have to stop calling it the RCC.
Roman is a rite of the Catholic Church.
Just call it the Catholic Church.

I also have the same problem with Protestantism that you do.
There doesn't seem to be a set standard,
set doctrines.

Here we are on these threads speaking our own mind about this or that.
Some persons might leave a church, nowadays, because they don't really believe Jesus is the Son of God.
Well, for goodness sake, what else to we have to hold us together!

What I can say about the CC is that it has a set of beliefs, doctrine, that every Catholic is supposed to accept.
Some really do. And some cannot, but they don't speak about it and I do believe God will accept those that cannot accept every single doctrine.

I'll stop here and say only that God accepts those that love Him and try to live their lives the best they can for Him.

I'll also say that the "rituals" in the CC, which someone here mentioned, are actually very good for the young that are growing up in that church. They seem to remember these "rituals" and carry them with them their entire life.
This is missing in the Protestant denominations...maybe the Lutheran and Methodist try to have some formal liturgies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Christ_empowered
I know this is off topic but from my own experience, this is one of the things that confused me and still does. Confession is Scriptural for James tells us to, "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed." (James 5:16 NKJV) It is extremely rare for anyone, Catholic or otherwise, to confess their sins to one another. At least in the Catholic confessional, the confessions are made to a priest but in my Lutheran church it is rare indeed, if not unheard of.

In the confessional, after the priest gave absolution, he always included penance that involved praying the Hail Mary X number of times and/or the Lord's Prayer X number of times. This confused me for a couple reasons. First, it was repetitive prayer, not in the sense that I was being persistent in my request to God but just repeating the prayers. Second, I've always understood prayer as a privilege that we could have a conversation with God Himself. I have never understood prayer as being a form of punishment but that is exactly what penance is. Penance by definition is self-inflicted punishment. Why would I need to punish myself for something that has been absolved? Have I been forgiven or not? This has always been very confusing for me.

Great post!
 
James 5:16 is speaking about confessing to someone for their forgiveness.
Also, if we harm the church in some way, we should ask forgiveness of the elders.
I believe James is speaking about this type of forgiveness...when we could help each other when we feel God has not forgiven us, or reasons of this type.



I really don't believe the new priests are doing this anymore.
Even older priests that I know have stopped this.
(unless they feel the person needs to pray for some reason or other).


Right.
The prayer was not a punishment.
It was to make you stop and think and speak to God.
Many years ago Catholics prayed by rote, this has since changed and there is a lot of free speaking when praying...unless there are prayers for certain reasons and at certain times of the day.

I agree that some practices are rather confusing.
I believe the church is trying to change.
So there is hope yet for the Catholic denomination! Wonderful!
 
So there is hope yet for the Catholic denomination! Wonderful!
I think the CC got too mixed in with politics, even to the 1800's.
I think Protestants were way ahead of the CC in that they were able to read the bible and they had it explained to them at Sunday Service. This helped them to understand their faith.

I do believe the CC wasn't too keen on explaining a lot and just took it for granted that persons wouldn't understand or would be too ignorant of the facts - which could be a bit confusing.

The manger we use at Christmas time was invented by St. Francis of Assisi, in the 1200's.
This was to give to the illiterate peasants an idea of what the birth of Jesus was like.
Perhaps it wasn't even like this....
but it is a beautiful image of Christ becoming human.

At a bible study I was attending before covid...the leader/teacher (he hates being called a teacher-don't know why)
brought up works. Believe it or not, he read
Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


I must say that I feel very comfortable in Catholic bible studies and they do believe that we must believe in Christ for salvation...they also believe that we must be baptized at some point. There can be no salvation without faith in God.
 
So how are we saved according to the CC?

We must be baptized.
If as infants, we must come to accept this baptism, this person that is the Holy Spirit.
We must believe that Jesus is the Son of God....the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
We must confess our sins, to a priest if that is our belief. Not every Catholic does, but they find it comforting.
We must live a life that is pleasing to God.

If anyone would like to add anything...
 
We must confess our sins, to a priest if that is our belief. Not every Catholic does, but they find it comforting.

If anyone would like to add anything...
Only mortal sins must be confessed to a priest.
From the Catechism:
1458 Without being strictly necessary, confession of everyday faults (venial sins) is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace
Only mortal sins must be confessed to a priest.
From the Catechism:
1458 Without being strictly necessary, confession of everyday faults (venial sins) is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.
Right.
Too much detail when it may not be needed.

Then the question becomes..
Why can God forgive some sins but He needs a priest to forgive others.

And a Bishop in some cases.
But Francis took care of that.

It's complicated.
 
Only mortal sins must be confessed to a priest.
From the Catechism:
1458 Without being strictly necessary, confession of everyday faults (venial sins) is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.
Then there's the Penitential Rite at the beginning of Mass.
 
Right.
But you stated that salvation came from Jesus THROUGH Mary.
I wanted to know what you understand this to mean.

(your post no. 42)
Assuming you are correct, why is the Catholic church changing? Didn't they get it right the first time? Or, perhaps they finally recognize some of the errors that have infiltrated the church over the centuries and are finally taking appropriate steps?
 
  • Like
Reactions: jaybo
At a bible study I was attending before covid...the leader/teacher (he hates being called a teacher-don't know why)
I understand why. When I led the high school Bible study in our church I wasn't too keen on being labeled a teacher either. I didn't feel I was qualified to be defined in that way and felt I was the study leader and we were learning together.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace
Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.
I don't want to take this too much further off topic but the very definition of absolution is to release from guilt, obligation, or punishment so isn't that what the priest is doing when he gives absolution?
 
Last edited:
Only mortal sins must be confessed to a priest.
From the Catechism:
1458 Without being strictly necessary, confession of everyday faults (venial sins) is nevertheless strongly recommended by the Church.
And yet Scripture tells us...

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9 NKJV

And...

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

James 2:8-10 NKJV

So then how is it that venial sins need not be confessed. Isn't sin, sin?
 
to be fair, modern Protestant churches have changed, also. I grew up Presbyterian (PCUSA), which...again, is dying. And yet...

for a while there, lots and lots of people were Presbyterian. I think membership peaked in the early 60s? So...one sees this in pretty much every long term, established religious organization ever...

society changes. the churches changes. the church may be in a position to exert some influence over society, so then society changes. and then the church changes. who will win? LOL :-)

Overall, the trend seems to confirm the secularization hypothesis. Scientific and psychological explanations win out over religious, supernatural explanations. The shrink, not the priest. The scientists, not the ministers. That kind of thing. And so...

back to PCUSA. Unlike the catholic church, PCUSA and I think (?) most other modern Presbyterian denominations viewed marriage as a -contract- , not a -sacrament- . That's why even way back, when one saw Protestants take over an area, suddenly divorces and legal separations became possible, even if initially the process excluded all but the upper classes. -Contracts- can be dissolved. In traditional Catholicism, marriages could be -annulled- , because the only way out was to declare the sacrament somehow invalid or defective to the point of being non-binding. And now...

Marriage was/is understood as a contract, albeit one that occurs in an important religious and social context. Children were understood to be important, but not -required- as part of the important contract. So...over time...Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and other mainstream Protestant groups gave the a-OK to contraception (first for married couples), then to abortion under limited circumstances. Divorce is still understood to be undesirable, but permissible when needed...generally not for elders and other church leaders (at least, that's how it was when I was a kid). Fast forward...

after decades upon decades of that sort of thinking, plus social changes and secularization -within- the established church...the higher ups of PCUSA (and some other churches) decided that same sex unions could be celebrated and affirmed within the church. Marriage is a -contract- , and as society became more accepting of same sex unions, the logic seems to be that the church should be there to affirm the expanding concept of the -contract- . Something like that, anyway.

Pope John Paul II has an excellent essay about "the culture of death." He basically juxtaposes modern culture -- which, to him, include many more "progressive" Protestant groups -- and the catholic church. Modern culture has a death wish, as shown by homosexuality, divorce, abortion, contraception, materialism, suicide, drug and alcohol abuse. The Catholic Church -- again, its a Pope writing, so this is the 1 true church, etc. -- is a beacon of light in a a dark and dying world. Agree, disagree, or...just take a moment to read and reflect, without forming a strong opinion...it is a beautiful essay. As a Christian, I enjoy it. As a Christian who grew up in a now dying Protestant denomination, the essay makes me think about how powerless and pointless church is without the saving power of Christ and The good news.

rambling...point is (I have one, I promise), all established religious groups exist within a social context. There's an entire subfield, the sociology of religion, dedicated to the interplay of religion and the rest of society. I think...the Catholic church has done better in -some- respects with retaining The good news and a sense of the sacred, of the otherworldly vs many Protestant groups. And then...

Jesus saves -individuals- . A Protestant church I attended here and there would say that their job was to facilitate Jesus' work in peoples' lives. He saves, they're there to help make it happen. The Catholic church is open about the very real possibility of -not- making heaven, not even making purgatory...

but the Church makes the sacraments available, makes the doctrine and dogma available and accessible, too. :-)
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace