Satan: Christianity vs Judaism

[Vanguard]

I believe that the serpent (satan) first dèceived Eve in the garden. Jesus said he was the deceiver from the beginning. If Judism doesn't embrace this, perhaps they have been deceived. He is the father of lies and in that way, bringing false accustiòns agaist us, Yes he is also the accusar. Isn't that the meaning of the word devil?

It is a bit more complicated than that.

Satan (from the Hebrew Ha-SaTan) means "the accuser" and to a lesser extent "the adversary." There is no mention in the OT that refers to Satan as the deceiver. Hebrews [Jews] do not believe in the concept of Satan as the devil, and the OT is their history and genealogy. Why would they write about something they don't believe in? They wouldn't.

Most of the NT references to Satan being the deceiver, the serpent, the dragon, etc. come from the Book of Revelation, in the NT.

Before we go any further, we need to take a timeout and go over something. With regard to the Book of Revelation, what is your belief:

1. Idealist- Revelation is allegorical and not tied to any specific historical events (belief founded by the church father Origen, supported by Augustine). The events in Revelation are symbolic.

2. Preterist- the events have already happened, either in the 1st century AD, or just after the collapse of the Roman Empire. We're living in a post-apocalyptic age.

3. Historicist- the events happen over the course of time, starting with the Apostles through the modern age, and are tied to specific historic events (with or without proof), and some have yet to happen.

4. Futurist- the literal approach to the Book of Revelation (for those that take the Bible literally at its word). Those events have yet to happen, but will happen at some point in the future.

If you are anything other than a futurist, there is some wiggle room for applying the deceiver, dragon, and serpent to Satan. However, if you are a futurist and take the Bible literally, then Satan (as the dragon) has yet to be cast out of Heaven during his war, in which Michael the Archangel defeats him and throws him down to the earth (not Hell), along with his fallen angels [demons].

If you claim that you are not a futurist, then you don't take the Bible literally at its word, and understand that the Bible is subject to interpretation.

This is Christian Eschatology 101.

Christians often tie the serpent in Genesis to the serpent in Revelation. The problem is that in Genesis, the serpent had wings/legs, and after the apple incident, God changed the serpent and made it crawl on its belly (it does not say snake, but we interpret it that way) and eat dust (angels don't eat). Since Satan is a created being; an angel serving God in heaven during Genesis, he can't be the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Remember...Satan does not get cast out of Heaven until the Book of Revelation, which, based on any position in Christian Eschatology, had not happened during the time of Genesis (or any other book).

Don't fall into the fallacy of using Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc.

Note: this is not my personal position, but rather, relevant information to the thread, as the title implies. However, the more I learn and study the more I am inclined to agree with the Jewish account of the OT. I haven't made that leap yet, but it is hard to overlook. As I have stated elsewhere, I could never be an Orthodox Jew, but Messianic is a possibility (they hold true to the Hebrew OT beliefs but also believe that Jesus is the Messiah).

As to the definition of the word devil, it comes from the Greek word diabolos, and it does mean accuser or slanderer.

Here's the kicker...

1. God is the only god, who is all powerful.
2. To give Satan power to operate independently of God, makes him a god as well, which contradicts #1.

Thus why Judaism does not believe in Ha-SaTan as anything other than an angel, with his name actually being a title (Ha = The, SaTan = Accuser), and he is following God's orders to accuse people of their sins, and bring them before God for judgment.

Sorry if any of this is confusing (I know it can be) but that is Theology 101.

 

[Guest]

It is a bit more complicated than that.

Satan (from the Hebrew Ha-SaTan) means "the accuser" and to a lesser extent "the adversary." There is no mention in the OT that refers to Satan as the deceiver. Hebrews [Jews] do not believe in the concept of Satan as the devil, and the OT is their history and genealogy. Why would they write about something they don't believe in? They wouldn't.

If you don't believe Satan is a deceiver than, he's already got you in his spider web. They don't believe it because it's false doctrine and garbage that Man has written. What does the Jewish account state about Salvation and Faith?

 

[Vanguard]

What does the Jewish account state about Salvation and Faith?

Covering Orthodox Judaism would be a LONG post, so I'll hit the high points...

1. They believe in the same God that we do, who is God from the OT.
2. They believe in doing good works as a way of life, and living righteously.
3. They reject Jesus as the Messiah because of failed prophecies, but they do believe in a future Messiah.

Outside of these big 3, there are other beliefs and tenets that they adhere to, but that list is long and distinguished.

What's interesting is that if you look at #2 on the list, the same thing is found in the Christian NT, in the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 20:11-13 NASB 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

So now...nevermind, that needs to be another thread.

 

[Guest]

However, the more I learn and study the more I am inclined to agree with the Jewish account of the OT. I haven't made that leap yet, but it is hard to overlook. As I have stated elsewhere, I could never be an Orthodox Jew, but Messianic is a possibility (they hold true to the Hebrew OT beliefs but also believe that Jesus is the Messiah).

It just seems like you're not sure what you believe in, you're all over the place man. Uncertainty is an easy way to confuse the Word of God, do you still think Satan isn't a deceiver?

 

[Vanguard]

It just seems like you're not sure what you believe in, you're all over the place man. Uncertainty is an easy way to confuse the Word of God, do you still think Satan isn't a deceiver?

No, you're missing the bigger picture. The OT is NOT the story of Christianity. It is the history, genealogy, and most importantly LAWS for the Hebrews. Christianity takes place in the NT. I am not all over the place...far from it.

 

[gr8grace]

Satan's Strategy

With Regard to Unbelievers
Satan is the god of this world -
JOH 12:31; JOH 14:30; JOH 16:11; 2CO 4:4; EPH 2:2

1) To blind their minds so that they will not be saved

LUK 8:12; 2CO 4:3-4;

2) To deify man (credit to the creature rather than the Creator; operation ego)

GEN 3:5

3) To influence unbelievers in order to hinder salvation or to use them

MAR 5:1-13; JOH 13:27

4) To deceive the nations

REV 12:9; REV 20:3; REV 20:8



With Regard to Believers
Satanic schemes and attacks towards believers - 2CO 2:11

1) To accuse believers

JOB 1:6-11; ZEC 3:1-2; 1JO 2:1-2; REV 12:9-10

2) To keep the believer from the Word of God

1CH 21:1; 1TI 4:1; 1CO 10:19-21; 1CO 4:17-18; 2CO 11:3 2CO 11:13-15

3) To frustrate the will of God
a) Geographical will of God: where does He want me to be?
b) Operational will of God: what does He want me to do?
c) Mental will of God: what does He want me to think?

1TH 2:18
GAL 5:7; EPH 4:14; JAM 4:7-8
1TI 4:1

4) To destroy the believer's focus
a) To get eyes on self
b) To get eyes on people
c) To get eyes on things

GEN 3:4-5
1KI 19:10; 1CO 1:10-11
GEN 19:28; GEN 20:1-2
HEB 13:5-6

5) To frighten believers with regard to death

HEB 2:14-15

6) To get believer to worry

1PE 5:7-9

7) To get believer occupied with temporary solutions to man's problems, such as socialism, internationalism, and emotion.
The Devil can distort something legitimate.

Satan has a counterfeit system (religion).

1) Counterfeit doctrine

1TI 4:1

2) Counterfeit ministers

2CO 11:13-15

3) Counterfeit gospel

2CO 11:3-4

4) Counterfeit communion table

1CO 10:20-21

5) Counterfeit spirituality

GAL 3:2-3

6) Counterfeit righteousness

MAT 19:16-28

7) Counterfeit power

2TH 2:8-10

8) Counterfeit gods

2TH 2:3-4

9) Counterfeit modus operandi

MAT 23:1-38



Satan has false teachers.

1) System of idolatry

HAB 2:18-19

2) Phony facade

MAT 7:16; MAT 23:1-7; MAT 23:25-28; 2TI 2:5

3) Legalism

1TI 1:7-8; MAR 7:7

4) Continues throughout history

1JO 4:1

Satan in relation to the angelic conflict. (How does Satan get at believers?)
Psa 109

1) Intrudes into believer's prayer life through religion and legalism

PSA 109:7

2) Has power to shorten life

PSA 109:8

3) Has power to remove people from authority

PSA 109:8

4) Has power to kill

PSA 109:9; JOB 1:12 JOB 1:18-19; HEB 2:14-15; 1JO 3:8

5) Can persecute children

PSA 109:10

6) Can remove wealth

PSA 109:11

7) Can turn people against you

PSA 109:12

8) Can cut off posterity

PSA 109:13

9) Can cause disease

JOB 2:6-8; 2CO 12:7

10) Infiltrates false ideas and concepts into human soul, such as human good, religion, and legalism.

MAR 7:7
If you want to know the truth, this is the strategy of Satan. Satan is no mystery to us. God has revealed to us all the strategies of Satan through His word. He would not leave us hangen with a Question about what Satans purpose is. Look at Job, Satan at this time has access to heaven and earth. In Revelation Satan no longer has access to heaven after he is cast down.

This is the Christian view and the Biblical view of who Satan is and what Satan is up to.

 

[Guest]

No, you're missing the bigger picture. The OT is NOT the story of Christianity. It is the history, genealogy, and most importantly LAWS for the Hebrews. Christianity takes place in the NT. I am not all over the place...far from it.

The OT is the story of Christianity, denying that is like denying the whole Book of Genesis and how everything came into existence. Why is Satan mentioned 19 times in the OT? Point out scriptures that hold your claim that the OT is not part of Christianity.

 

[P31Woman]

I believe that the serpent (satan) first dèceived Eve in the garden. Jesus said he was the deceiver from the beginning. If Judism doesn't embrace this, perhaps they have been deceived. He is the father of lies and in that way, bringing false accustiòns agaist us, Yes he is also the accusar. Isn't that the meaning of the word devil?

I agree.

1 Timothy 2:
14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.


2 Corinthians 4
4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[P31Woman]

Satan's Strategy

With Regard to Unbelievers
Satan is the god of this world -
JOH 12:31; JOH 14:30; JOH 16:11; 2CO 4:4; EPH 2:2

1) To blind their minds so that they will not be saved

LUK 8:12; 2CO 4:3-4;

2) To deify man (credit to the creature rather than the Creator; operation ego)

GEN 3:5

3) To influence unbelievers in order to hinder salvation or to use them

MAR 5:1-13; JOH 13:27

4) To deceive the nations

REV 12:9; REV 20:3; REV 20:8



With Regard to Believers
Satanic schemes and attacks towards believers - 2CO 2:11

1) To accuse believers

JOB 1:6-11; ZEC 3:1-2; 1JO 2:1-2; REV 12:9-10

2) To keep the believer from the Word of God

1CH 21:1; 1TI 4:1; 1CO 10:19-21; 1CO 4:17-18; 2CO 11:3 2CO 11:13-15

3) To frustrate the will of God
a) Geographical will of God: where does He want me to be?
b) Operational will of God: what does He want me to do?
c) Mental will of God: what does He want me to think?

1TH 2:18
GAL 5:7; EPH 4:14; JAM 4:7-8
1TI 4:1

4) To destroy the believer's focus
a) To get eyes on self
b) To get eyes on people
c) To get eyes on things

GEN 3:4-5
1KI 19:10; 1CO 1:10-11
GEN 19:28; GEN 20:1-2
HEB 13:5-6

5) To frighten believers with regard to death

HEB 2:14-15

6) To get believer to worry

1PE 5:7-9

7) To get believer occupied with temporary solutions to man's problems, such as socialism, internationalism, and emotion.
The Devil can distort something legitimate.

Satan has a counterfeit system (religion).

1) Counterfeit doctrine

1TI 4:1

2) Counterfeit ministers

2CO 11:13-15

3) Counterfeit gospel

2CO 11:3-4

4) Counterfeit communion table

1CO 10:20-21

5) Counterfeit spirituality

GAL 3:2-3

6) Counterfeit righteousness

MAT 19:16-28

7) Counterfeit power

2TH 2:8-10

8) Counterfeit gods

2TH 2:3-4

9) Counterfeit modus operandi

MAT 23:1-38



Satan has false teachers.

1) System of idolatry

HAB 2:18-19

2) Phony facade

MAT 7:16; MAT 23:1-7; MAT 23:25-28; 2TI 2:5

3) Legalism

1TI 1:7-8; MAR 7:7

4) Continues throughout history

1JO 4:1

Satan in relation to the angelic conflict. (How does Satan get at believers?)
Psa 109

1) Intrudes into believer's prayer life through religion and legalism

PSA 109:7

2) Has power to shorten life

PSA 109:8

3) Has power to remove people from authority

PSA 109:8

4) Has power to kill

PSA 109:9; JOB 1:12 JOB 1:18-19; HEB 2:14-15; 1JO 3:8

5) Can persecute children

PSA 109:10

6) Can remove wealth

PSA 109:11

7) Can turn people against you

PSA 109:12

8) Can cut off posterity

PSA 109:13

9) Can cause disease

JOB 2:6-8; 2CO 12:7

10) Infiltrates false ideas and concepts into human soul, such as human good, religion, and legalism.

MAR 7:7
If you want to know the truth, this is the strategy of Satan. Satan is no mystery to us. God has revealed to us all the strategies of Satan through His word. He would not leave us hangen with a Question about what Satans purpose is. Look at Job, Satan at this time has access to heaven and earth. In Revelation Satan no longer has access to heaven after he is cast down.

This is the Christian view and the Biblical view of who Satan is and what Satan is up to.

Great job! Thank you.

 

[P31Woman]

from gotquestions.org

Who is Satan?

Put simply, the Bible defines Satan as an angelic being who fell from his position in heaven due to sin and is now completely opposed to God, doing all in his power to thwart God's purposes.

Satan was created as a holy angel. Isaiah 14:12 possibly gives Satan’s pre-fall name as Lucifer. Ezekiel 28:12-14 describes Satan as having been created a cherubim, apparently the highest created angel. He became arrogant in his beauty and status and decided he wanted to sit on a throne above that of God (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:15; 1 Timothy 3:6). Satan’s pride led to his fall. Notice the many “I will†statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Because of his sin, God barred Satan from heaven.

Satan became the ruler of this world and the prince of the power of the air (John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 2:2). He is an accuser (Revelation 12:10), a tempter (Matthew 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 3:5), and a deceiver (Genesis 3; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 20:3). His very name means “adversary†or “one who opposes.†Another of his titles, the devil, means “slanderer.â

 

[Vanguard]

The OT is the story of Christianity, denying that is like denying the whole Book of Genesis and how everything came into existence. Why is Satan mentioned 19 times in the OT? Point out scriptures that hold your claim that the OT is not part of Christianity.

Sigh.

Here we go again....round and round.

1. I did not say that the OT is not PART of Christianity, I said it was not the STORY of Christianity. Which do you think came first: Judaism or Christianity?

2. 19 times huh...according to the KJV, which incorrectly translates from the Hebrew and Greek (and Latin) on several accounts. We've been over this. Furthermore, you forgot to mention that of those 19 times, 14 of them are in the 1st and 2nd chapter of the Book of Job, and included within the same story as part of a conversation between God an Satan. Out of the other 5...

Psalm 109:6 NASB Appoint a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand. (no mention of Satan)

1 Chronicles 21:1 NASB Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel. (refers to a census, nothing sinister)

Zechariah 3:1-2 NASB Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” (refers to Satan accusing the high priest Joshua of a sin before God, by allowing his daughters to marry Gentiles, and God defends Joshua...again, nothing sinister)

How many times do I have to say it...CONTEXT!

 

[Vanguard]

Isaiah 14:12 possibly gives Satan’s pre-fall name as Lucifer.

Satan’s pride led to his fall. Notice the many “I will” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15.

Nope. The entire chapter 14 is talking about a Babylonian King (most likely Nebuchadnezzar II). See here: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=48379

 

[P31Woman]

Nope. The entire chapter 14 is talking about a Babylonian King (most likely Nebuchadnezzar II). See here: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=48379

Christians I respect don't agree.

 

[Vanguard]

Satan's Strategy

With Regard to Unbelievers
Satan is the god of this world -
JOH 12:31; JOH 14:30; JOH 16:11; 2CO 4:4; EPH 2:2

<Etc., etc.>

You really need to use those verses in context of their surrounding verses and chapters. You are taking great liberty in making them fit your mold.

 

[gr8grace]

from gotquestions.org

Who is Satan?

Put simply, the Bible defines Satan as an angelic being who fell from his position in heaven due to sin and is now completely opposed to God, doing all in his power to thwart God's purposes.

Satan was created as a holy angel. Isaiah 14:12 possibly gives Satan’s pre-fall name as Lucifer. Ezekiel 28:12-14 describes Satan as having been created a cherubim, apparently the highest created angel. He became arrogant in his beauty and status and decided he wanted to sit on a throne above that of God (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:15; 1 Timothy 3:6). Satan’s pride led to his fall. Notice the many “I will” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Because of his sin, God barred Satan from heaven.

Satan became the ruler of this world and the prince of the power of the air (John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 2:2). He is an accuser (Revelation 12:10), a tempter (Matthew 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 3:5), and a deceiver (Genesis 3; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 20:3). His very name means “adversary” or “one who opposes.” Another of his titles, the devil, means “slanderer.”

Yes the five "i wills" of Satan. The thing that is so deceptive about satan is that overtly He does a lot of things like God but inwardly He is a ravenous wolf. Satan wants to make this world work but He wants to do it completely apart and independently from God. Satan wants to ultimately say," See you big egotistical God we can make this work without you!" And I can rule it with out you! (creature credit)

That is the "I Will" of Make myself like the most High. Isaiah 14:14 So He is not trying to be unlike the most High, He is failing at trying to BE like the most High. So his deception is great to humans....trying to keep us from Grace but at the same time trying to have us do human good to make this a better place.

 

[P31Woman]

2 Corinthians 4

Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing

. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”[a] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.

 

[Vanguard]

Christians I respect don't agree.

I am a Christian. I agree with it 100% because it is HISTORICAL and accurate. Hebrews wrote it on the Scrolls of Isaiah. I think they know best what it is about.

You, urk and maybe one or two others can keep going round and round with me if you like. I don't know what you're getting at (other than a personal vendetta), but you're not teaching me anything, you're not convincing me of anything, and you certainly aren't going to be able to refute anything I say, because I use verses within context, give the history behind them, and post what is actually in the Bible.

Seriously people...quit cherry picking verses, adding your opinions to them and liberally applying them to whatever point you are trying to make. If you can't use them in context the way they were meant to be understood, then you either don't understand them yourself or you don't care.

totopic

 

[Guest]

Psalm 109:6 NASB Appoint a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand. (no mention of Satan)

1 Chronicles 21:1 NASB Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel. (refers to a census, nothing sinister)

14 of them are in the 1st and 2nd chapter of the Book of Job, and included within the same story as part of a conversation between God an Satan. Out of the other 5...

You don't think Satan is sinister???? You are absolutely exhausting! So you do admit, there is a conversation between God and Satan, what was the conversation about? The OT is the story of Christianity, you still have proved nothing but measly scriptures about Satan and the accuser, which are in fact the same. You can use scriptures in context all day long, but if you haven't come to salvation yet, then you are a false prophet. There is a difference between dumping verses on a forum and actually coming to salvation first! Stop giving up on the 1 on 1 debate and challenge me if I'm wrong. I'm not teaching you anything because you don't wanna be taught. By the way Christianity came first because God the Father was first before false prophets came into the world.

 

[gr8grace]

You really need to use those verses in context of their surrounding verses and chapters. You are taking great liberty in making them fit your mold.

Hi Vanguard,

We have the choice in what the bible has to say and I cannot deny you your choice. I just pray that you take the scriptures for what they say. That study on Satan was months of study. So Just give it a chance and study it. If you deny Its validity and its truth then that is your choice. You are going to have to do some serious study and show me how they are all out of context to change my mind.

 

[Vanguard]

Hi Vanguard,

We have the choice in what the bible has to say and I cannot deny you your choice. I just pray that you take the scriptures for what they say. That study on Satan was months of study. So Just give it a chance and study it. If you deny Its validity and its truth then that is your choice. You are going to have to do some serious study and show me how they are all out of context to change my mind.

I'm not here to change your mind. I present biblical facts and accurate historical accounts. At least you are far more civil than the others who chase me around! ;)

However, if you want me to review your list and show you where verses are out of context, I'll do that.

But seeing how I am not the subject...

totopic