Sinthesis
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Are there biblical examples of this?
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Satan,Sin, Angels, Man
- Thread starter Douglas Summers
- Start date
Are there biblical examples of this?
Malachi
Member
Either Satan is a real, evil, spirit being who is the Adversary of God (as those who believe the Bible will affirm) or he is just a figment of the imagination (as theological liberals will insist -- allegories, parable, similitudes). It is far safer to simply believe what the Bible says without equivocation, since the Devil is a very powerful enemy who works against Christ and Christians continuously. How does the Bible describe him?
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev 12:7-9).
What do we see in this passage?
1. "The dragon" is an angelic being, since Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels.
2. Satan is "the great dragon" since dragon and serpent worship has been embedded in pagan religions for millennia.
3. Satan is "that old serpent" who deceived Adam and Eve and brought about the Fall of the human race.
4. Satan is "the Devil" because diabolos means the Slanderer, or the False Accuser.
5. Satan is "Satan" because he is the Adversary of God and man.
6. Satan deceives the whole world because he takes possession of the Beast (the Antichrist) and does indeed deceive the whole unbelieving world.
7. Here we find that Satan and his evil angels are cast down from the atmospheric and stratospheric heavens (also called "the air" and he being "the prince of the power of the air"). But long before this battle and this casting down, Lucifer and his evil angels were cast OUT of the third Heaven (God's Heaven) when Satan was filled with pride and rebellion, almost immediately after his creation. Paradise Lost by John Milton depicts this very vividly.
Satan is a counterfeiter that can replicate anything of God, but we have to remember what he does is only temporal in deceiving the mind of others through signs and wonders to draw the unlearned away from God.
Exo 7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
Exo 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
Exo 7:12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
Exo 8:5 And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt.
Exo 8:6 And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt.
Exo 8:7 And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
smaller
Member
Never said Satan isn't a "real" evil anti-Christ spirit. I observed that many descriptions are provided of these "unseen" by parable/allegory/similitude because they are unseen. Mark 4 is a great example, as are the other seed parables.
I would extend that quite further in these scriptural sights:
Daniel 7:
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The connection in the above is quite obvious, and yes, we are sinners, sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8. There is the "overcoming" of Satan against saints.
Iffy proposition. If we trail the activity of the "fowls of the air" in Mark 4 we can see the direct correlation to Satan stealing Gods Word from mens hearts. Connect the air there and we're much closer to the conveyance. These matters are not about Satan drifting around in the atmosphere. Neither "air" or "Satan" operate that way in Spiritual conveyance.
I'm not a Paradise Lost fan, and yes, I have read it. It's vivid in some aspects, but is far short of what I'd consider scripturally accurate.
Satan was a murderer from the beginning. John 8:44. Some freewill camps resort to fairytales about how Satan was holy and made some very bad choices, so now he's done for. And they use that clown show form of theology to scare their adherents. There is no real scriptural basis for these kinds of sights. They are concocted.
smaller
Member
Uh, no. When we see statements of devils working miracles that has nothing to do with "holy miracles." The miracles they perform are "inverse" miracles of the evil/wicked kind. Signs, if you prefer. Missing the mark. Exposing themselves, etc. The notion that some man anti-Christ will be doing miracles is utter lunacy from the sci-fi eschatolgy arena.
Revelation 16:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
(yeah, count 'em, 3)
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
We can reverse engineer the evil characters described from the O.T. and the N.T. above and see exactly what they do and how they do it. Not miracles in the Holy sense of the term, but the INVERSE or OPPOSING sense.
Christ has the power of LIFE. That is a Holy Miracle.
Satan, the power of DEATH. The inverse/opposing miracle.
Miracle:
Definition:
a sign, mark, token
- that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known
- a sign, prodigy, portent, i.e. an unusual occurrence, transcending the common course of nature
- of signs portending remarkable events soon to happen
smaller
Member
I'm not going to redo the exercise.
Well, we better hope that isn't the case because every last one of us were unrighteous prior to Christ's arrival in our hearts by faith. It's a ridiculous claim.
God in Christ is quite Living and Active in this present creation, period. Hebrews 4:12, again, if needed. I could do a pile on of scripture to counter that notion.
2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.
Psalm 94:11
The Lord knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.
Every thought any of us have ever had is fully known by God.
I would appreciate it when you reply that you reply to the whole of the post and not just cut out the parts that explain why I say that of what I try to explain as I always use scripture to back up what I am saying, but I never ask anyone to agree with me, but to agree with the word the way God spoke it.
You have ignored that of John 9:31 and Matthew 27:46 as this plainly shows that God can not look upon sin. God knows the heart and therefore will judge the actions of it, but will not have fellowship with those who choose to reject Him. God is longsuffering, that He would that none should perish and He also knows those who are truly His own.
Douglas Summers
Member
If He was an angel (and he was) Then he has a form like the angels
Justone, I did not realize you were not a Christian. the things I explained to you are in depth teachings that are better understood by a born again believer. They are Spiritual teachings that make no sense to the flesh or natural man.
All men die, good men, even babies before they do anything sinful, pastors, teachers along with evil and bad men. There is a reason for death. Adam, the first man in God's creation was given the earth and all that man needed to live created by God, for man. God gave man a garden to meet all his needs and a place of beauty and peace. All man had to do is to dress the Garden called Eden, and listen to God's instructions so that man would have a constant fellowship with a paradise atmosphere forever.
Satan, a rebellious high angel corrupted mans will to ignore God's instructions, bringing sin upon all men of which the penalty is death. Even though men did not commit the same sin as Adam, we are his offspring. We are sinners by heredity. We are born sinners, and man sins because he is a sinner.
God decided to destroy His creation, because every imagination of man was to do evil. But by His grace, He gave us a way back home ( a promise He made to those who would accept His Grace. And it all starts and ends with Christ, a promised redeemer.
That is an overview of the Bible. God makes a covenant with man to save him by God's grace to all that would receive it by FAITH. Every man born stands out side the ark with an invitation to come in before the Great and terrible Day of The Lord.
That invitation is for me...and you also.
Who did the devil murder in the beginning?
God tempts no one. God tested Abraham in the matter of Isaac.
This is no contradiction of scripture as you would suppose.
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:13-15
each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires...
Your "devil in flesh" theory is long played out and is easily shown to be a false, unbiblical teaching, devised as a doctrine of demons, to keep people under the assumption that a person is not held accountable for the sin they commit, but it was the "devil" that does the sinning.
This doctrine of "the devil in our flesh" which is known as "sin is Satan", and was started in America by witness Lee, a self proclaimed "Apostle" from China.
Full Article - http://www.ministrysamples.org/excerpts/SIN-BEING-SATAN-HIMSELF-IN-OUR-FLESH.HTML
JLB
smaller
Member
I only responded to the claim that God has "cut Himself off" from unrighteousness.
That is not true. If you have some scripture to the contrary, you are welcome to share it.
That citing does NOT mean God has cut himself off from unrighteousness. God does, in the present, very much deal, adversely so, with sinners. Unless you want to make the claim that Divine Judgment, currently or forthcoming, is phony. That claim won't and can't stand.
Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Ridiculous claim. That says nothing of the sort in that scripture. There are more interesting things to see in that, but your claim is not one of them.
God abandoning Jesus? Please. If any person doesn't think God Himself was involved, every single step of the way with every single event of Jesus, they are not seeing very well a'tall. The Sacrifice of Christ was done, every matter of it, with Gods Divine Hands upon the entirety. As it is also with His creation.
As it pertains to the subject in this thread, yes, God created Satan and devils to do what they do. God also created "Holy" angels to do what they do.
God is quite entirely active at all moments in all points in time, one way or another, in all His creation.
smaller
Member
Murder/killing/sin/evil is an internal matter:
Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23
Satan is fully involved with the "death" of all natural persons. The body dies/is dead because of the working resisting presence of sin in it,
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
and sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8. And spare me the little s. The little s isn't changing sin or sins to NOT being of the devil.
God actively deals adversely with demonic agents. This means they are tempted by Gods Words, to RESIST. It's not just a question of "man alone."
IF, by Gods Holy Words being spoken, the adverse agents ARE tempted to RESIST, then there is temptation also, to them to do so. Mark 4:15.
Did God tempt? By speaking His Words, they are tempted. Doesn't mean Gods Words are not Holy, Righteous and GOOD. But there is real resistance to them by adverse agents who are not MAN, but are within men's hearts.
Never said there was.
Whatever "lusts of the flesh" any person has are theirs in particular to deal with. To say these are not demonically inspired however is FALSE. Even James attests to this fact happening with believers. James 3:15
There is more than "just the individual" involved, which is the general point. A point that you have yet to understand.
God deals with mankind DIFFERENTLY than how He deals with the adverse agents, the devil and his messengers. They are 2 entirely different entity classes. They just happen to be in the same package of FLESH.
I doubt Jesus was teaching demonically, here: Mark 4:15 and all the other seed parables and innumerable engagements with these entities IN MAN throughout the scriptures show the facts. I'm only surprised that believers can't see the obvious.
But since your openly exposed intentions are to potentially DAMN other believers to hell, I understand that when "we" may have to look upon our own sins in proper judgment to the other it party probably spoils your intentions.
I might observe that the intent to potentially damn other believers to burn alive forever for sin is in fact demonically inspired in the flesh to begin with. And for whatever "witness" Lee says, I could care less unless he was honest about the workings of sin, being demonic, in his own flesh, which I doubt I would find by reading his stuff, which I haven't.
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smaller
Member
It is hard to understand what an evil spirit is. For example, many, including "witness" Lee, see the devil, Satan and his messengers as 'living.'
They are not "living" entities. They are the opposite. Christ is LIFE. They are the opposers or the opposite of life, that being DEATH.
Where we see the term 'anti-Christ' spirits, it should be quite obvious that these are the 'spirits of devils.' They are against Christ and everything that Christ IS.
Where Christ says "I am the LIFE" then they are the opposite or opposing.
Where Christ says "I am the Way" then they are the opposite or opposing.
Where Christ says "I am the Truth" they they are the opposite or opposing.
The demonic order is an inverse/resisting order. No, they are not "living" yet they exist. We might even term them, THE WALKING DEAD.
Christ does give us this picture, here, where we see THE DEAD performing activity:
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
They are "alive" in the INVERSE sense of the term.
They are not "living" entities. They are the opposite. Christ is LIFE. They are the opposers or the opposite of life, that being DEATH.
Where we see the term 'anti-Christ' spirits, it should be quite obvious that these are the 'spirits of devils.' They are against Christ and everything that Christ IS.
Where Christ says "I am the LIFE" then they are the opposite or opposing.
Where Christ says "I am the Way" then they are the opposite or opposing.
Where Christ says "I am the Truth" they they are the opposite or opposing.
The demonic order is an inverse/resisting order. No, they are not "living" yet they exist. We might even term them, THE WALKING DEAD.
Christ does give us this picture, here, where we see THE DEAD performing activity:
Matthew 8:22
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
They are "alive" in the INVERSE sense of the term.
smaller
Member
Already addressed this. Many have sights of "sin" being external only. That is NOT the case of reality that Jesus shows us, here:
Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23
or here:
1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Satan didn't have to "commit" murder to be a murderer. Satan, per Jesus in John 8:44, was a murderer from the beginning.
John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And a "sinner" as well, from the beginning.
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
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You keep misquoting this verse, because if you actually wrote out what this verse says, your opinion falls apart, and is exposed as being untrue, and unbiblical.
He who sins is of the devil.
1 John 3:8
Your "theory" leaves out the first word of that verse.
"He" who sins....
It is the person who sins not the devil.
Sin is not Satan.
Satan is not sin.
JLB
smaller
Member
And for some odd reason you are fixated on a single small case s. And you seem to think that is some critical hingepoint of some sorts, undefined.
There is no avoiding the equations my friend. We all have sinned as a past tense reality. Romans 3:23. We all "have" sin a present tense reality. 1 John 1:8. Sin indwells our flesh. Romans 7:17-20. Evil is present with us. Romans 7:21, Heb. 10:22, And sin is demonic. Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8.
Nobody other than God in Christ was sinless nor can anyone "make" themselves sinless.
The scriptural math isn't changing. Some just don't care to hear the unpleasant facts that these things are true, that's all. And they can not because of the adverse influences in the flesh that are and remain factually against and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.
That adverse influence IN the flesh is our adversary.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
Perhaps there was a murder before this, but didn't God say to Adam to not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? yhat if he did eat from it he would die?
If that's the way death was introduced, then that could be argued as the murder weapon that was tempted and lied about.
Just a thought.
Not_Now.Soon
Member
If Satan was the snake back then, then that might be the only instance where Satan is physically told to be there when it comes to the possible first murder. After that it gould be argued that the element of sin is the culperit to all our misdeeds, and give way to God's warning to Cain to not be angry and to subdue sin, otherwise it will overtake you.
On the other hand when Judas went to the pharisees, the bible verse I remember is "then Satan entered Judas." With that in mind sin could also be condidered Satan in our flesh, instead of sin being it's own seperate element. If that's true then Cain killing Able could be the first murder, and Satan found guilty because he is the same as all sin within us.
Personally, I think of sin and Satan as seperate. Sin being a force, an action and behavior, or being an inner part of us. And Satan being worse. The one who seeks to bring us into our sins, and accuse us of them as he did with Job. The tempter and the accuser.