Satan,Sin, Angels, Man

[for_his_glory]

I only responded to the claim that God has "cut Himself off" from unrighteousness.

That is not true. If you have some scripture to the contrary, you are welcome to share it.


That citing does NOT mean God has cut himself off from unrighteousness. God does, in the present, very much deal, adversely so, with sinners. Unless you want to make the claim that Divine Judgment, currently or forthcoming, is phony. That claim won't and can't stand.

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.



Ridiculous claim. That says nothing of the sort in that scripture. There are more interesting things to see in that, but your claim is not one of them.

God abandoning Jesus? Please. If any person doesn't think God Himself was involved, every single step of the way with every single event of Jesus, they are not seeing very well a'tall. The Sacrifice of Christ was done, every matter of it, with Gods Divine Hands upon the entirety. As it is also with His creation.

As it pertains to the subject in this thread, yes, God created Satan and devils to do what they do. God also created "Holy" angels to do what they do.

God is quite entirely active at all moments in all points in time, one way or another, in all His creation.

God knows the heart and is longsuffering that all should never perish, but come to repentance, 2Peter3:9. His timing will come when those who refuse His call will face His wrath upon them during the seven trumpets and vial judgments and God will destroy them. God also will not hear the wicked for they are an abomination to Him, Proverbs 6:6-19. but will only recognize the heart of a sinner when they call out to Him in pure repentance, John 9:31. God did not forsake Jesus in Matthew 27:46 as the purpose of Jesus from the very beginning was He would be made the final pure blood sacrifice for sin. God did not forsake, but fulfilled the prophecies of Messiah. Jesus was both God and man as being the word made flesh to come and dwell among us and it was the physical agony of the flesh that separated the diety from the humanity as the flesh part (man) of Jesus died on the cross.

 

[for_his_glory]

Duplicate

 

[for_his_glory]

You keep misquoting this verse, because if you actually wrote out what this verse says, your opinion falls apart, and is exposed as being untrue, and unbiblical.

He who sins is of the devil.
1 John 3:8

Your "theory" leaves out the first word of that verse.

"He" who sins....


It is the person who sins not the devil.

Sin is not Satan.
Satan is not sin.


JLB

I agree as Satan is only the tempter and not sin as sin is the product of unbelief, Hebrews 3:12. Satan being a created spirit/angle not made of flesh and blood can only tempt us in the imaginations of our mind just as he did Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11 and also using whatever he chooses to try and tempt us like the serpent in Genesis 3:1-7.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 

[for_his_glory]

Who did the devil murder, in the beginning?


JLB

Satan can't take a persons life, but he sure can tempt one to do so as the unguarded mind is his playground.

 

[for_his_glory]

Perhaps there was a murder before this, but didn't God say to Adam to not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? yhat if he did eat from it he would die?

If that's the way death was introduced, then that could be argued as the murder weapon that was tempted and lied about.

Just a thought.

What died that day was the spiritual fellowship Adam had with God as he did not physically die when he disobeyed God and took of the fruit of the tree. God is Spirit and we worship Him in Spirit and truth. When we break that fellowship as Adam did then it becomes a type of death in that we no longer have that Spiritual relationship with God which leaves us spiritually dead inside.

The Biblical definition of spiritual death is the absence of having spiritual life, which is only available in the Lord Jesus Christ. When Adam broke that fellowship he had with God by being disobedient he broke that Spiritual relationship with God and became Spiritually dead within his inner man.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

[JLB]

1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Satan didn't have to "commit" murder to be a murderer. Satan, per Jesus in John 8:44, was a murderer from the beginning.


John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And a "sinner" as well, from the beginning.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He that committeth sin is of the devil;

This scripture certainly doesn't say sin is the devil.


JLB

 

[JLB]

And for some odd reason you are fixated on a single small case s. And you seem to think that is some critical hingepoint of some sorts, undefined.

I have no idea what you are referring to, as I have never mentioned any such thing.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Sin indwells our flesh.

Yes sin indwells our flesh.

Satan is not sin. Satan is a fallen angel that sinned.

Demons are not sin.


JLB

 

[smaller]

God knows the heart and is longsuffering that all should never perish, but come to repentance, 2Peter3:9. His timing will come when those who refuse His call will face His wrath upon them during the seven trumpets and vial judgments and God will destroy them. God also will not hear the wicked for they are an abomination to Him, Proverbs 6:6-19.

God heard this sinner just FINE:

Luke 18:
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

If anything God DOESN'T hear chest thumping religious people who think they are better sinners than everyone else. Paul also dispels this notion that "we" are better sinners in Romans 3:9, stating that pertaining to sin, we are NO better.

but will only recognize the heart of a sinner when they call out to Him in pure repentance, John 9:31.

Paul as Saul did exactly NOTHING but rode on his merry little way to Damascus to engage in killing Christians, yet GOD STUCK THAT MAN with His Mercy. How did Paul then "obtain" it? It was GIVEN to him. He even tells us HOW he obtained said Mercy:

1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

So much for the works Gospel.

 

[smaller]

Yes sin indwells our flesh.
JLB

It sure does. Brilliant conclusion.

And yes, Satan does enter people's hearts and STEALS, which happens to be A SIN that happens in people that is not OF the person.

Mark 4:15.

At some point the light will go on in the dark room. When it does, believers will see just like Jesus did. That there is the person, and there is Satan in their hearts, STEALING.

and tempting and inserting lusts and deceiving and and and.

The evidence for these things couldn't be any clearer than in the DIVISIONS of the churches themselves.

The WORKS OF SATAN were addressed to EVERY MEMBER of the 7 churches of Revelation, so it's not like it's a "new thang."

 

[smaller]

Where do "unclean spirits" dwell?

Jesus tells us quite clearly, IN MAN:

Luke 11:24
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

 

[smaller]

Where did these believers dwell?

Revelation 2:13
I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches"

If any can NOT HEAR, they just got no EAR to hear it.

I might think someone STOLE their ear. Just like hear, I mean HERE:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

go figure

 

[smaller]

I think Paul heard, loud and clear:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Yet this scripture can be put right in front of believers eyes, and they'll say:

"I don't see no messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh"

even when it's RIGHT THERE to see. Bold as can be!

Where, where, oh where??????? I can't see it! It must be something ELSE 'cause I can't READ.

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

When we DON'T have the spirit of slumber, we can see and hear, the OBVIOUS.

It then becomes kind of an inside JOKE when the obvious can't be seen or heard, which only confirms the reality of the darkness problem.

 

[WIP]

Sounds like some are beginning to get agitated. Let's calm down and discuss things rationally lest I am forced to take heavier action.

Thank you.

 

[for_his_glory]

God heard this sinner just FINE:

Luke 18:
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

If anything God DOESN'T hear chest thumping religious people who think they are better sinners than everyone else. Paul also dispels this notion that "we" are better sinners in Romans 3:9, stating that pertaining to sin, we are NO better.


Paul as Saul did exactly NOTHING but rode on his merry little way to Damascus to engage in killing Christians, yet GOD STUCK THAT MAN with His Mercy. How did Paul then "obtain" it? It was GIVEN to him. He even tells us HOW he obtained said Mercy:

1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

So much for the works Gospel.

There is no such things as a work Gospel as Gods grace is freely given as we could never earn it by works nor do we even deserve it, Romans 3:22-31.
Yes, God heard you and all of us who were humbled before Him and repented. It's the humility that God sees in our heart that He will hear that of a repented heart.

Paul was born at Tarsus and was a Roman citizen and a Benjamite Jew, Acts 22:3, 25-28; Phil 3:5, who followed after Judaism, Gal 1:14; Phil 3:5. Paul was also a very strict Pharisee educated under Gamaliel, Acts 23:6; Phil 3:5,6; Acts 22:3. Paul had a heart for God, but was ignorant of Gods mercy and grace. The biggest problem with Paul as being Saul was he knew nothing about Gods mercy and grace and that was the purpose of the Damascus experience that God had to show Paul how to humble his heart in order to put him in Gods ministry.

God is longsuffering in His patience as He knows those who will humble themselves before Him and also knows the last one who will do so.

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[childeye]

Satan (formerly Lucifer) The highest of the order of the Seraphim was created by God. (God did not create him evil). There are several Scriptures that give us understanding of Lucifer's fall (Ezek. 28:11-19) (Isai. 14:12-14). Lucifer was the first ruler under God of His creation before the appearance of man. And by PRIDE (notice the middle letter in PR"I"DE is "I") he fell from his exalted position. Angels were Holy beings created by God. They did not have a physical temporal body. When Lucifer by pride wanted to put himself above God (for he was beautiful and his voice was like a flute, a sound of beauty) He lifted himself above God to rule over all things, he rebelled and persuaded 1/3 of the angels to rebel also. And there was a war in heaven and Lucifer became Satan, an adversary of God and all his creations. If Satan could not rule over his Master, then Satan would destroy it so no one would have it. Satan was the first sinner and murderer. and father of it. It was Satan that fell, not Adam. for Satan was a Holy being, Adam was not.

SIN is the transgression of the Law of God, (or rebellion against God's will). Adam was not born with sin, nor was he a Holy being. The Angels and Satan being Holy did not have a corruptible body. They could not feel the effects of sin and how it would decay and grieve the flesh with pain and sorrow by the consequences of Sin or disobedience to God's will. So God made man in His image with a corruptible body to receive the penalty of disobedience. (Gen. 3:14-19) It was God's plan to make man in a corruptible body to qualify for a Spiritual body. (1 Cor. 15: 35-57)
When God made man, man was not perfect, except his body (there were no birth defects), but man was created INNOCENT., and with an adult mind. God made man,ruler over His creation even giving him the free will to name the species and plant kingdom of his own mind.. So man was not born with sin, but He was made a little lower than the angles for a while with free will (Heb. 2:5-8)
God was never surprised what man would do, for he prepared and made man for that purpose to refine the soul. But he was many times disappointed..

This view is primarily based on a freewill premise. That is, that whatever thoughts and actions taken by Satan or mankind, against God, were done so voluntarily. But then you also speak of PRIDE as being the cause. I agree that pride is the issue, but I don't agree that pride is voluntary.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think Paul heard, loud and clear:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Yet this scripture can be put right in front of believers eyes, and they'll say:

"I don't see no messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh"

even when it's RIGHT THERE to see. Bold as can be!

Where, where, oh where??????? I can't see it! It must be something ELSE 'cause I can't READ.

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 13:12
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

When we DON'T have the spirit of slumber, we can see and hear, the OBVIOUS.

It then becomes kind of an inside JOKE when the obvious can't be seen or heard, which only confirms the reality of the darkness problem.

Paul's thorn in the flesh was that of Satan's messenger trying to buffet him. Buffet here means to strike repeatedly as Satan used his demons to come against Paul and persecute him everywhere he went. Paul prayed three times for God to take these persecutions away and God said no as God said "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness".

God is not going to keep us from being persecuted as even His own Son Christ Jesus was persecuted to death on the cross and many martyrs after him in other ways, even so still today as many are persecuted even to death for the witness of Christ. God gives us His power and authority through His grace to give us strength when we are persecuted like Paul said he is weak in the flesh, but the power of Christ that rest upon him gives him strength to endure the persecutions. The glory and pleasure he took in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses was that he knew that power of Christ that helped him to endure all things he faced from the adversary.

2Corinthians 12:9 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[Hospes]

So Christians based the fall of Satan on those few verses.

Hi Just.
Here are a couple of passages that give a glimpse of Satan and his kind:

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; (2 Peter 2:4 ESV)

And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— (Jude 1:6 ESV)

And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. (2 Corinthians 11:14 ESV)
​

It seems to me God chose to not give us a ton of information on Satan. He does give us enough, though.

Hope this helps.

 

[Douglas Summers]

This view is primarily based on a freewill premise. That is, that whatever thoughts and actions taken by Satan or mankind, against God, were done so voluntarily. But then you also speak of PRIDE as being the cause. I agree that pride is the issue, but I don't agree that pride is voluntary.

Hi Child, I based my understanding on the Scripture text that I read. Pride is the first sin of Satan, to be equal to or above God. When a person is given a position of responsibility according to his ability, but that person feels that he should receive more honor and credit, and lust after his benefactors position, is always the one who wants to be worshiped. That is pride. Pride is about me, myself and I without the thought of anyone else.

 

[smaller]

Paul's thorn in the flesh was that of Satan's messenger trying to buffet him. Buffet here means to strike repeatedly as Satan used his demons to come against Paul and persecute him everywhere he went. Paul prayed three times for God to take these persecutions away and God said no as God said "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness".

That sight won't hold scriptural water because you are deferring it to "other people" when the messenger of Satan was in Paul's own flesh, which he testifies to in many places. Temptation in his flesh, Gal. 4:14, lusts in his flesh, Romans 7:7-13, sin indwelling his flesh, Romans 7:17-20 that was "no longer I," evil present with him, Romans 7:21 etc etc. Deferral won't cut scriptural mustard. The flesh is precisely "against" and "contrary" to the Spirit exactly for these reasons. Gal. 5:17. They are NOT about demonic incursions in others, though that is certainly also part of the journey.

Paul was clear we don't wrestle flesh, but what is in the flesh. Eph. 6:11-12. The battle is in fact "quite" internal and IS in our own flesh.