Saved by Grace not of works !

[Drew]

Then I'll be blunt. You don't know what "according to" means.

Really?

Then please set me straight. Here are examples of the use of "according to" in the english language, each one mirroring the Pauline text where some "reward" is given "according to" to some "act of doing":

1. Students will be given degrees according to whether they pass the exam.

2. Runners will be given medal according to the order in which they finish.

3. Prisoners will be granted parole according to how they behave.

Each of the above sentences are of this general form:

Reward "X" will be granted according to performance (or action) "Y".

Now - Sinthesis - you tell me I do not understand what "according to" means.

Do you stick with your assertion? If you do, you are effectively denying that the receipt of the reward X is determined by the performance Y.

I am not sure you want to do that.

 

[Drew]

Drew, If you actually believe what your verse says, are you doing all kinds of "good deeds??

I believe I am indeed doing a number of good deeds. And I believe it is the Spirit of God in me that is the agent responsible for such deeds.

Are you totally abstaining from known sin in your life?? Are you loving God with ALL your heart and mind? Are you loving ALL your neighbors?? Are you thinking 'ONLY' pure thoughts?? Are you going to church EVERY Sunday?? Are you giving 100% of yourself to God?? Do you 100% of every 24 hour day do good, think good, be good?? Because if your not, according to that verse your gonna have a problem on "Judgment Day" trying to explain to God why you were not persistent in doing your good works??

As hard as I read Romans 2:6-7, I see no mention of a standard of perfection.

This is a common error - to imagine that this text is demanding perfection. It never insists on perfection. In fact, the very language suggests that the standard will be a striving, or a seeking for good deeds.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

When we speak of a person who persistently does "X", we are not saying that he (or she) perfectly does X. Rather we are saying that the person manifests a strong habit or inclination to do X.

But to be persistent is not the same thing as being perfect.

I will not tire of asking you this question, even though you steadfastly evade it. Why did Paul write Romans 2:6-7 if he does not believe it to be true?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Just as godly sorrow worketh repentance...


Believing is a work of God....



By which men are persuaded by the gospel message.

One of the basic doctrines of Christianity is that a person is not saed by their works. Eph 2:8-9




8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[glorydaz]

One of the basic doctrines of Christianity is that a person is not saed by their works. Eph 2:8-9




8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Guess you're saying God shouldn't boast. Okay. I'll give Him that message.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

How is it that my respecting everything that Paul writes constitutes an "obsession"?

What explanation do you offer as to why Paul would write Romans 2:6-7, which clearly asserts that eternal life is granted according to "how we live" (e.g. persisting in doing good), if he does not believe this to be so.

Its really a simple question. Paul wrote these words. So please enlighten us - what is he trying to tell us?

Whatever I'd write, you'd disagree with. Also, I don't want to "through fuel on the fire of your obsession." All I'll say is, that verse speaks "only" of people who have placed their faith in Christ. Those people are the only ones that can "persist" in doing right, and only because the Spirit is in their life...Those who "refuse" to believe, will not receive eternal life but go into "eternal punishment." Because they "rejected" Jesus as Lord and Savior by not placing their faith in Him...

 

[Sinthesis]

Really?

Then please set me straight. Here are examples of the use of "according to" in the english language, each one mirroring the Pauline text where some "reward" is given "according to" to some "act of doing":

1. Students will be given degrees according to whether they pass the exam.

2. Runners will be given medal according to the order in which they finish.

3. Prisoners will be granted parole according to how they behave.

Each of the above sentences are of this general form:

Reward "X" will be granted according to performance (or action) "Y".

Now - Sinthesis - you tell me I do not understand what "according to" means.

Do you stick with your assertion? If you do, you are effectively denying that the receipt of the reward X is determined by the performance Y.

I am not sure you want to do that.

You still don't know what "according to" means? Really?

You could have simply provided a definition. Instead you've provided three variations on Paul's use of "according to" which have NO value because you still have not explained what "according to" actually means.

If you really want to know what Paul is communicating in Romans 2:6-7 you must first define "according to".

Hint: look up "dictionary" on the internets.

 

[Drew]

One of the basic doctrines of Christianity is that a person is not saed by their works. Eph 2:8-9




8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I have already pointed out to you that there are arguments on the table here in this thread that challenge this view that the "works" in Ephesians 2:8-9 are "good works".

Please address those arguments.

 

[Drew]

Also, I don't want to "through fuel on the fire of your obsession."

My asking for a coherent explanation of your view on Romans 2 is repeated because you have hitherto evaded giving an answer.

As have many other posters in many other threads.

It is interesting that my entirely justified, repeated insistence that you (and others) give a workable account of Romans 2 is seen as an "obsession".

I only keep hammering at this text because so many either avoid it, or give demonstrably invalid explanations for it.

All I'll say is, that verse speaks "only" of people who have placed their faith in Christ. Those people are the only ones that can "persist" in doing right, and only because the Spirit is in their life...Those who "refuse" to believe, will not receive eternal life but go into "eternal punishment." Because they "rejected" Jesus as Lord and Savior by not placing their faith in Him...

I agree - the category of those who persist in doing God are those who have, by faith alone, been given the Spirit.

But the text says what it says - the criteria - the basis - for the awarding of eternal life is "works-based" even if we agree that only those with faith will produce such works.

......according to what they have done....

I really do not think you have answered my question properly. In Romans 2:6-7, Paul asserts that people get eternal life according to what they have done. So, please tell us, why do you believe that Paul wrote these words if he believes that eternal life is granted according to something other than what they have done?

 

[Drew]

You still don't know what "according to" means? Really?

You could have simply provided a definition. Instead you've provided three variations on Paul's use of "according to" which have NO value because you still have not explained what "according to" actually means.

If you really want to know what Paul is communicating in Romans 2:6-7 you must first define "according to".

Hint: look up "dictionary" on the internets.

You keep telling me I am wrong about "according to" and insist, with patronizing remarks added in for good measure, that I make your case for you. Suggesting that I need to be instructed like a school boy about the use of dictionaries is not exemplary Christian behaviour.

I have argued, in the last post, through the presentation of examples, that the phrase "according to" in sentences of this form:

Reward "X" will be granted according to performance (or action) "Y".

....means that the receipt of the reward X is determined by the performance Y.

Please answer: In each of the three examples is it not true that "the the receipt of the reward X is determined by the performance Y"?

But, I have now looked up "according to" and the definitions I have discovered basically support my case.

Here are the three definitions provided by Merriam-Webster:

1. in conformity with

2. as stated or attested by


3. depending on

So let's re-express verse 6 using these definitions:

God “will repay each person in conformity with what they have done.â€

God “will repay each person as attested by they have done.â€

God “will repay each person depending on what they have done.â€

I suggest that each of these, especially the first and third re-enforce the idea that "according to" establishes a "causal" relation between the reward and the "what they have done".

Do you deny this?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

My asking for a coherent explanation of your view on Romans 2 is repeated because you have hitherto evaded giving an answer.

As have many other posters in many other threads.

It is interesting that my entirely justified, repeated insistence that you (and others) give a workable account of Romans 2 is seen as an "obsession".

I only keep hammering at this text because so many either avoid it, or give demonstrably invalid explanations for it.


I agree - the category of those who persist in doing God are those who have, by faith alone, been given the Spirit.

But the text says what it says - the criteria - the basis - for the awarding of eternal life is "works-based" even if we agree that only those with faith will produce such works.

......according to what they have done....

I really do not think you have answered my question properly. In Romans 2:6-7, Paul asserts that people get eternal life according to what they have done. So, please tell us, why do you believe that Paul wrote these words if he believes that eternal life is granted according to something other than what they have done?

The answer has been given to you. You just cannot see or understand it. Your "annoying" people, with your "repetitious" question, which means your "obsessed" One more time, Paul isn't telling us, "how" a person get's saved (doing all kinds of good works all your life) He is presenting an answer to the "kind of person who gains eternal life" And that is, someone who has trusted in Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, and been "born-again by the work of the Holy Spirit." That person will truly persist in doing good works etc and will attain eternal life...

 

[Drew]

The answer has been given to you. You just cannot see or understand it. Your "annoying" people, with your "repetitious" question, which means your "obsessed"

I understand - it must indeed be annoying to be posed a question that you cannot answer in a manner that honors what the words actually say.

He is presenting an answer to the "kind of person who gains eternal life" And that is, someone who has trusted in Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, and been "born-again by the work of the Holy Spirit." That person will truly persist in doing good works etc and will attain eternal life...

I agree with this, but this still does not honour what 2:6-7 actually says. The text actually says this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done

This is a simple english statement whose meaning you cannot, or will not, accept.

When someone says "you get X according to what you have done", this is as clear a statement as can be that the reward x is determined by, yes, what you have done.

And you have to deny this to maintain your position. I agree with you - only those who have faith will pass this test.

But it is still a "works-based" test: we are rewarded according to what we have done.

And we also have this text, which I have already raised. Perhaps you have responded to it in the past, but let's revisit it:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live

In context, Paul is speaking to fellow believers and clearly telling them that how you behave determines whether you live or not.

What sayst thou? How can you possibly read this text as anything other than establishing a cause-effect relationship between how we behave and whether we live.

Am I "obsessed" with this text as well?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I understand - it must indeed be annoying to be posed a question that you cannot answer in a manner that honors what the words actually say.


I agree with this, but this still does not honour what 2:6-7 actually says. The text actually says this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done

This is a simple english statement whose meaning you cannot, or will not, accept.

When someone says "you get X according to what you have done", this is as clear a statement as can be that the reward x is determined by, yes, what you have done.

And you have to deny this to maintain your position. I agree with you - only those who have faith will pass this test.

But it is still a "works-based" test: we are rewarded according to what we have done.

And we also have this text, which I have already raised. Perhaps you have responded to it in the past, but let's revisit it:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live

In context, Paul is speaking to fellow believers and clearly telling them that how you behave determines whether you live or not.

What sayst thou? How can you possibly read this text as anything other than establishing a cause-effect relationship between how we behave and whether we live.

Am I "obsessed" with this text as well?

I give up...

 

[glorydaz]

You still don't know what "according to" means? Really?

You could have simply provided a definition. Instead you've provided three variations on Paul's use of "according to" which have NO value because you still have not explained what "according to" actually means.

If you really want to know what Paul is communicating in Romans 2:6-7 you must first define "according to".

Hint: look up "dictionary" on the internets.

Since Drew still seems stuck, can I play? You've presented the best question.

Paul has been discussing God's moral law (which all men have in their conscience, and the Jews have written down), isn't the definition you're looking for here "contingent" on?

Eternal life will be given contingent on their deeds.

Only those with faith can please God...(well doing)

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

We see those who diligently seek Him right here. Believing faith.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Paul has already said only the "doers" will be justified. He then goes on to explain that Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those who believe.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I've no doubt you can put this more succinctly than I have, but I think you get what I'm saying.

 

[Drew]

Eternal life will be given contingent on their deeds.

Indeed. And this is exactly what I have been saying.

Or, more precisely, this is what Paul is saying and that I accept.

The granting of eternal life is indeed contingent on what we do.

It is indeed true that only those who have the Holy Spirit, by faith and faith alone, will "persist in doing good". But Paul still clearly articulates the view that "what God looks at and evaluates" in respect to giving us eternal life is what we do, in the sense of "persistence in doing good".

Again, from Romans 8:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live

How could this not be more clear - the thing we need to do to "live" is, yes, to live according to the Spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

But it is still a "works-based" test: we are rewarded according to what we have done.

And we also have this text, which I have already raised. Perhaps you have responded to it in the past, but let's revisit it:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live

In context, Paul is speaking to fellow believers and clearly telling them that how you behave determines whether you live or not.

What sayst thou? How can you possibly read this text as anything other than establishing a cause-effect relationship between how we behave and whether we live.

Am I "obsessed" with this text as well?

No, you just don't clearly see this text, either. We've discussed it in the past, and you've continued to say it means something other than what Paul is saying.

Those who live after the flesh will be judged according to men in the flesh. (1 Pet. 4:6 below)

Those who live after the Spirit (led) are the sons of God and live according to God in the Spirit. (below)

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Carnal man lives, walks, minds the things of the flesh. The believers live, walk, and mind the things of the Spirit.

The Spirit "mortifies" the flesh...man doesn't do that. It isn't a cause and effect...it's our position in Christ. It's our place of abode. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, and we are no longer subject to the Law of Sin and Death because we are in Christ.

Those with the Spirit of God are the sons of God...there is no condemnation for us. The Spirit within bears witness with our spirit so that we can know we are His.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[glorydaz]

Indeed. And this is exactly what I have been saying.

Or, more precisely, this is what Paul is saying and that I accept.

The granting of eternal life is indeed contingent on what we do.

It is indeed true that only those who have the Holy Spirit, by faith and faith alone, will "persist in doing good". But Paul still clearly articulates the view that "what God looks at and evaluates" in respect to giving us eternal life is what we do, in the sense of "persistence in doing good".

Again, from Romans 8:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live

How could this not be more clear - the thing we need to do to "live" is, yes, to live according to the Spirit.

Did you read everything in my post? I don't believe you did. You skimmed through, and found what you could latch onto to continue your fruitless effort to claim man can attain salvation by what he does instead of where he is. If you don't have the covering of the blood of Christ, you won't get anywhere near the throne of God. We are covered by the righteousness of Christ. God will overlook all our deeds and see Jesus Christ. It's the ultimate presumption of man to think he can contribute to His own salvation.

So, NO, This is not true......"But Paul still clearly articulates the view that "what God looks at and evaluates" in respect to giving us eternal life is what we do, in the sense of "persistence in doing good".

God doesn't look at and evaluate our persistence in doing good. Eternal life is contingent on righteousness....not ours but Christ's. It's our position in Christ that God looks at. Man looks at the outside (good deeds) therefore a person is justified before man with good deeds. (James) God looks at the heart of man, and justifies man according to his faith in Christ. (Rom. 4)

We could just take a stick and beat you upside the head...maybe then you'd see. ;) You have taken a position and are trying to force the Word to agree with you. It doesn't work that way. Read the whole book of Romans and perhaps it will finally make sense to you. Other than that.....

 

[Grubal Muruch]

No, you just don't clearly see this text, either. We've discussed it in the past, and you've continued to say it means something other than what Paul is saying.

Those who live after the flesh will be judged according to men in the flesh. (1 Pet. 4:6 below)

Those who live after the Spirit (led) are the sons of God and live according to God in the Spirit. (below)


Carnal man lives, walks, minds the things of the flesh. The believers live, walk, and mind the things of the Spirit.

The Spirit "mortifies" the flesh...man doesn't do that. It isn't a cause and effect...it's our position in Christ. It's our place of abode. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, and we are no longer subject to the Law of Sin and Death because we are in Christ.

Those with the Spirit of God are the sons of God...there is no condemnation for us. The Spirit within bears witness with our spirit so that we can know we are His.

AMEN and "brilliantly" articulated...

 

[savedbygrace57]

They are calld Faithful !

Now why are they called Faithful in Christ Jesus ? Well first of all they had been Chosen in Christ Jesus Eph 1:4 and they had been Predestinated unto the adoption of Children by Jesus Christ Eph 1:5, and they had been Created in Christ Jesus unto Good Works that they should walk unto, all that makes certain their Faithfulness, for if God has ordained for anyone to walk in Good Works, how can they be otherwise ? For scripture says that God directs a Man's Steps Jer 10:23

O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 16:9

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Ps 37:23

23The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

So thats why the Called, Chosen are also the Faithful as Per indicated here Rev 17:14

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

These are they who are saved by Grace !

 

[Grubal Muruch]

They are calld Faithful !

Now why are they called Faithful in Christ Jesus ? Well first of all they had been Chosen in Christ Jesus Eph 1:4 and they had been Predestinated unto the adoption of Children by Jesus Christ Eph 1:5, and they had been Created in Christ Jesus unto Good Works that they should walk unto, all that makes certain their Faithfulness, for if God has ordained for anyone to walk in Good Works, how can they be otherwise ? For scripture says that God directs a Man's Steps Jer 10:23

O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 16:9

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Ps 37:23

23The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

So thats why the Called, Chosen are also the Faithful as Per indicated here Rev 17:14

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

These are they who are saved by Grace !

God calls ALL of mankind through His word, but those chosen are they who place their faith and receive Christ as Lord and Savior...

 

[savedbygrace57]

gb

but those chosen are they who place their faith and receive Christ as Lord and Savior...

Thats a false Gospel, and teaching salvation by works..