Bible Study Should Christian women be able to teach Christian men?

[for_his_glory]

You haven't told me what part of my post you have deleted so I have no idea what you are talkikng about.

I never said that Paul was telling women not to teach men in this passage.

As the Old Testament is not a manual for the New Testament church I tend not to try and make it say what I want it to say regarding leadership in the church.

None of the women you are referring to in the New Terstament are referred to as Elders.

Junia may have been a woman. There are just as many expositors who say he was a man. That being the case, you are on shaky ground if you want to base female eldership on that example.

Apart from the fact that you have to explain away Paul's instructions to Timothy and Titus if you claim women were elders.

In Christianity the definition of an Elder is a person who is valued for wisdom and holds a position of responsibility and authority in a Christian group. There is no difference between pastors and elders. the two terms refer to one and the same NT church office. It is only God that calls whoever He choses and anoints them to His calling. I stand firm in my explanation in Post #71. I do not expect you or anyone to agree with me.

 

[Doug Brents]

In Christianity the definition of an Elder is a person who is valued for wisdom and holds a position of responsibility and authority in a Christian group. There is no difference between pastors and elders. the two terms refer to one and the same NT church office. It is only God that calls whoever He choses and anoints them to His calling. I stand firm in my explanation in Post #71. I do not expect you or anyone to agree with me.

I agree with everything you say in post #71 except where you state that “husband of one wife” is gender inclusive. There has never, in all of history, been a woman who was the husband. Or a man who was a wife. A husband is a man, not either/or. A wife is a woman, again not either/or.
Yes, there are many places where both genders are included in a single gender reference, but this is not one of those cases. When gender roles are both stated in a single verse, they are clearly exclusive of the other.

An example of this is seen where the Holy Spirit (through Paul) tells us that women must hot teach or hold authority over a man. The reason He gives is that the woman sinned first and then led man into sin also. Clearly, these are not gender inclusive references, because we can look at the history given in Genius that shows the Eve clearly sinning first and then giving to Adam to eat also.

 

[Adoration]

An example of this is seen where the Holy Spirit (through Paul) tells us that women must hot teach or hold authority over a man. The reason He gives is that the woman sinned first and then led man into sin also. Clearly, these are not gender inclusive references, because we can look at the history given in Genius that shows the Eve clearly sinning first and then giving to Adam to eat also.

Wow... I just learned something... I did not know that... I did not know that there was a reason for this.
I will have to look that up... VERY interesting.

 

[for_his_glory]

The founder of Christianity was not a woman! It was Christ. Yes, a woman was the first to view the empty tomb, but that fact is meaningless.

There were certainly some of Jesus’ male disciples present at the crucifixion. The man about whom He said to His mom, “Behold, your son.” And it is clear that “the discipline whom Jesus loved” was John’s way of referring to himself. So John was most certainly there. Also, Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias were certainly present, because to be considered as a replacement for Judas among the 12, the men had to be witness to Jesus’ baptism and ascension and everything in between (which would include the crucifixion).

There is nothing meaningless about Mary Magdalene being the first one to witness the risen Christ, speak to Him and told to go witness the good news to the disciples that He was alive. Is that not what all of our witness needs to be is Christ alive? It's amazing that John was the only disciple present at the crucifixion of Christ, even though he was not the first one to witness the risen Christ. The rest of the disciples fled in fear of their own life by the hands of the Romans as they kept themselves behind locked doors. John 19:25-27; John 20:11-18.

 

[for_his_glory]

You seem to be promoting the term man (as a woman) of one wife (being the man) as scriptually okay.
That's why I never listen to you.
You are all mixed up thinking women should lead men.

In today's world, people are interpreting the Bible to agree with the way's of the world.
In so doing, the Bible no longer reads the way it always has.
Because the world changes, therefore the Bible changes.
Women are very well pleased to tell men what to do and what to believe.
Now we have legalized abortion, lesbian pastors, and all hell is breaking loose in our churches.

And I don't blame the women.
They are the weaker sex and are unable to correct what is wrong.
Men are the problem.
They are lazy and fail to be spiritual leaders as God has commanded them.
This will not change because we are very close to the Day of our Lord.

All a man can do is work at being right with God and teaching his wife to do the same.

Only giving the full context of scripture for what has already been written. It doesn't matter if you agree or not as many do not do a deeper study in this matter, but take one scripture at face value. I know I heard the voice of the Lord calling me into His ministry many years ago and set me before men to teach them.

 

[for_his_glory]

This comment coming from ADMIN absolutely BLESSES me like I cannot express...
This is the AROMA that we need to live in... RESPECT for each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.
THANK you from the bottom of my heart for taking such GOOD care of this site... and ensuring that justice
for all to be heard is not only hoped for... but actually practiced.

I have had such a difficult time TRUSTING what people say.... and I am in a unique situation because I am a modern day hermit... LOL.... I mean that quite literally... It is by choice that I live this way... MY life is simple... and ever so peaceful. My relationship with CHRIST is Centre to everything I do. I am a work in progress... like everyone else.

It has been my biggest hope to find an on-line community where I can be MYSELF... speak openly and honestly... and meet some other fellow believers along the way.

I first joined a forum in Spring of last year... This will be my third in a year... and I have to say.... I FEEL like I am HOME...

This place for me is more than just a place to be heard.... I desire to LEARN a great many things...for that to occur... I need RESPECT.... I need to SEE that people are actually behaving in a manner that is worthy of being listened to and believed.

I am so IMPRESSED.... so deeply moved by this place. THANK YOU to all the staff... Many might not appreciate this but I SURE DO!!!

Most tenderly... In CHRIST.... ADDY

Thank you for this as we need to be a community that is united in brotherhood and not divided by indifferences.
God bless you my friend.

 

[Doug Brents]

There is nothing meaningless about Mary Magdalene being the first one to witness the risen Christ, speak to Him and told to go witness the good news to the disciples that He was alive. Is that not what all of our witness needs to be is Christ alive? It's amazing that John was the only disciple present at the crucifixion of Christ, even though he was not the first one to witness the risen Christ. The rest of the disciples fled in fear of their own life by the hands of the Romans as they kept themselves behind locked doors. John 19:25-27; John 20:11-18.

Sorry, but I believe you are reading into the text of John 19 what you want to see. There were, almost certainly, others of the disciples, especially the Apostles, present. We know there were, because, as I said, Matthias could not have qualified as an Apostle if he had not been there at the cross.

John 19:25-27 only mentions that John and Mary, Mary, and Mary were among those that were there. It does not say they were the only ones there. Luke 23:27 says that a great multitude followed Him, and women who mourned Him ALSO followed. This means that the multitude that followed were men, some of whom were almost certainly the rest of the Apostles and many of the other disciples.

 

[Doug Brents]

Wow... I just learned something... I did not know that... I did not know that there was a reason for this.
I will have to look that up... VERY interesting.

I refer to 1 Tim 2:11-14

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree with everything you say in post #71 except where you state that “husband of one wife” is gender inclusive. There has never, in all of history, been a woman who was the husband. Or a man who was a wife. A husband is a man, not either/or. A wife is a woman, again not either/or.
Yes, there are many places where both genders are included in a single gender reference, but this is not one of those cases. When gender roles are both stated in a single verse, they are clearly exclusive of the other.

An example of this is seen where the Holy Spirit (through Paul) tells us that women must hot teach or hold authority over a man. The reason He gives is that the woman sinned first and then led man into sin also. Clearly, these are not gender inclusive references, because we can look at the history given in Genius that shows the Eve clearly sinning first and then giving to Adam to eat also.

1Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

That verse is inclusive in the sense that one of the requirements if a "man" desires the office of a bishop
he needs to be the husband of one wife, not many wives. It's like that of John 4:16-18 where Jesus told the woman at the well she had five husbands and the one she has now is not her husband.

In the case of Adam and Eve, yes she took of the fruit and gave Adam to eat of it, but Adam should had forbidden her to eat as he knew what God told him, but instead lost his Spiritual headship over the woman as he disobeyed God and did eat also of the fruit. This is the same in the ministry that if a man does not have the Spiritual headship then God will give it to a woman to oversee His ministry.

 

[crossnote]

Thank you for this as we need to be a community that is united in brotherhood and not divided by indifferences.
God bless you my friend.

As long as our ‘unitedness’ is not at the expense of truth, as so many ecumenical movements jettison.

 

[Doug Brents]

1Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

That verse is inclusive in the sense that one of the requirements if a "man" desires the office of a bishop
he needs to be the husband of one wife, not many wives. It's like that of John 4:16-18 where Jesus told the woman at the well she had five husbands and the one she has now is not her husband.

In the case of Adam and Eve, yes she took of the fruit and gave Adam to eat of it, but Adam should had forbidden her to eat as he knew what God told him, but instead lost his Spiritual headship over the woman as he disobeyed God and did eat also of the fruit. This is the same in the ministry that if a man does not have the Spiritual headship then God will give it to a woman to oversee His ministry.

You are correct that a MAN can be a bishop/elder/pastor (all of these are the same office, the same title), but a woman is not a man. These are NOT inclusive terms.

Yes, Adam should have forbidden Eve to eat, or refused to eat is she didn’t listen to him. But that is irrelevant to the reasoning given in 1 Tim 2. There are two reasons given for why a woman cannot have authority over a man: Adam was created first, and Eve sinned first. Yes, maybe we can explain away the second, but the first is God’s choice and God’s action. We cannot gainsay nor can we dispute this command.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry, but I believe you are reading into the text of John 19 what you want to see. There were, almost certainly, others of the disciples, especially the Apostles, present. We know there were, because, as I said, Matthias could not have qualified as an Apostle if he had not been there at the cross.

John 19:25-27 only mentions that John and Mary, Mary, and Mary were among those that were there. It does not say they were the only ones there. Luke 23:27 says that a great multitude followed Him, and women who mourned Him ALSO followed. This means that the multitude that followed were men, some of whom were almost certainly the rest of the Apostles and many of the other disciples.

Luke 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

A great multitude did follow Jesus in a mixture of men and women, but yet scripture only mentions John being there with the four Mary's at the crucifixion as during the night of Jesus betrayal the disciples, except John, abandoned Jesus in fear that they to would be crucified for being His disciples. Look at Peter who denied Him three times that very night. This is why they were found of Jesus behind locked doors in fear of the Jews that they to would be taken and crucified as followers of Christ. Matthew 26:30-35; Mark 14:50; John 20:19.

It was Mary Madeline that came to the disciples behind locked doors that Sunday morning bring them the witness that Christ was alive as she testified of the risen Savior. This would make her the first Evangelist.

 

[for_his_glory]

As long as our ‘unitedness’ is not at the expense of truth, as so many ecumenical movements jettison.

Our unitedness is that of the Community Message you need to read that we respect each other as we walk in love towards each other even if we do not always agree with each other. It has nothing to do with the expense of truth.

 

[crossnote]

Our unitedness is that of the Community Message you need to read that we respect each other as we walk in love towards each other even if we do not always agree with each other. It has nothing to do with the expense of truth.

That's fine, my/our Community Message should be God's Word and should not be compromised for the sake of 'unity'.

 

[for_his_glory]

Adam was created first, and Eve sinned first.

Go back and read Genesis

You are correct that a MAN can be a bishop/elder/pastor (all of these are the same office, the same title), but a woman is not a man. These are NOT inclusive terms.

Yes, Adam should have forbidden Eve to eat, or refused to eat is she didn’t listen to him. But that is irrelevant to the reasoning given in 1 Tim 2. There are two reasons given for why a woman cannot have authority over a man: Adam was created first, and Eve sinned first. Yes, maybe we can explain away the second, but the first is God’s choice and God’s action. We cannot gainsay nor can we dispute this command.

Go back and read Genesis 1:26-27; 5:1-2. I will not be moved from my post # 71 unless someone proves me wrong and that has not happened yet. People are just to indoctrinated with man's traditional theologies as many never seem to do a full intense study of all scriptures that pertain to just one.

 

[for_his_glory]

That's fine, my/our Community Message should be God's Word and should not be compromised for the sake of 'unity'.

No one is compromising anything but giving their views, opinions and understanding as we discuss the scriptures as mature civil adults. This is Biblical Growth and Study forum.

 

[for_his_glory]

That's fine, my/our Community Message should be God's Word and should not be compromised for the sake of 'unity'.

You should probably go back and read it.

 

[Doug Brents]

Luke 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

A great multitude did follow Jesus in a mixture of men and women, but yet scripture only mentions John being there with the four Mary's at the crucifixion as during the night of Jesus betrayal the disciples, except John, abandoned Jesus in fear that they to would be crucified for being His disciples. Look at Peter who denied Him three times that very night. This is why they were found of Jesus behind locked doors in fear of the Jews that they to would be taken and crucified as followers of Christ. Matthew 26:30-35; Mark 14:50; John 20:19.

It was Mary Madeline that came to the disciples behind locked doors that Sunday morning bring them the witness that Christ was alive as she testified of the risen Savior. This would make her the first Evangelist.

Scripture gives no details of the movements of the Apostles between when they fled at His arrest early Thursday morning and Sunday morning. But it is clear that many of His disciples, both men and women were at His crucifixion Thursday afternoon.

The fact that Mary was the first to learn of Jesus’ resurrection has nothing to do with the COMMANDMENT that women are not to have AUTHORITY over men. She was not exercising authority, she was passing along knowledge. She was not instructing them in Scripture, she was telling them happy news. Many other ladies did similar things in Scripture, but none of them (in the New Testament) were given authority over men. Nor is a woman capable of being the “husband of one wife” to be able to qualify as an elder.

 

[Doug Brents]

Go back and read Genesis

Go back and read Genesis 1:26-27; 5:1-2. I will not be moved from my post # 71 unless someone proves me wrong and that has not happened yet. People are just to indoctrinated with man's traditional theologies as many never seem to do a full intense study of all scriptures that pertain to just one.

I appreciate how you stick to what you believe, and as I said, I agree with most of what you said. But there is still the error of you saying that “the husband of one wife” could be a woman. This is not “inclusive “ language. It is clearly limited to MEN to fill the office of elder, and men ONLY!

 

[crossnote]

No one is compromising anything but giving their views, opinions and understanding as we discuss the scriptures as mature civil adults. This is Biblical Growth and Study forum.

That's what I did. I gave my view. Or am I to hold back my view because someone disagrees with it?