Bible Study Should Christian women be able to teach Christian men?

[Rollo Tamasi]

I never read scripture with a modern day mind of man's doctrines. Go back and read Genesis 1:26-27; 5:1-2 and tell me by using scripture when this has changed. When reading 1 Corinthians 14:34 you need to study the history of the church at Corinth and understand why women were to be quiet. I already explained it, but do some homework of your own on this.

I think maybe I was wrong about some things.
The first thing I was wrong about was giving you the impression that I hate you.
I really don't, I just love a good debate.
Secondly, my understanding that prophecy is preaching, and there are many prophetesses in Scripture, that's it's okay for a woman to preach.
But from my standpoint, if a woman is the boss and gives out orders and runs the church and is the spiritual leader as well, I can't quite get a handle on that.

 

[Doug Brents]

Go back and read my Post #52 and do a study on the Church of Corinth where the women were out of order during the service with their chattering and asking questions. Ref is 1 Corinthians 14:26-40.

The reason for the commandment does not negate the commandment given.

Again, what is the reason given in 1 Tim 2 for forbidding women to have authority over men?

 

[for_his_glory]

Ok thanks, I read it and now what?

Now what, start respecting others views, opinions and understandings instead of trolling in your replies. Will not reply any more to this.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The women's lib movement of the 1960's change a lot in the way a woman lives her life today.
Coinciding with this movement was the dismantling of prayer in the public schools.
No prayer, no God.

It didn't take long and then abortion was legalized.
Then the government paid for everything.

Though there were some women pastors in churches before this, the movement took off right after this.
After all, if they were not to stay in the home because there children were aborted, they need other avenues to pass their time.
Japan came up with the first bank run by all women.
Going to college instead of staying home with children, women moved right up in the ranks in business with their battle cry of "equality".

Eventually with women now deeply embedded in the work force, a 2 income family became the norm and those who had children went into daycare.

Does anyone see God leading us through all this?
Because I don't.
It is quite common now to see women be leaders in the work force and many more men are now homeless.
Women now marry women and use a sperm bank to have their own children.

In today's churches, we have women pastors, women bishops, lesbian pastors, and who is left to teach the sanctity of the family.
People want to criticize pastors like Joel Osteen, yet his Lakewood church has a large family based ministry.

People often want to blame money on our problems instead of looking at themselves in the mirror.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think maybe I was wrong about some things.
The first thing I was wrong about was giving you the impression that I hate you.
I really don't, I just love a good debate.
Secondly, my understanding that prophecy is preaching, and there are many prophetesses in Scripture, that's it's okay for a woman to preach.
But from my standpoint, if a woman is the boss and gives out orders and runs the church and is the spiritual leader as well, I can't quite get a handle on that.

Thank you for saying you do not hate me. I appreciate that. I just want a healthy discussion as we do not debate in the Biblical Growth and Study Forum. I do not hold my teachings higher than others, but only give that of what I study in how I understand the scriptures. I truly do not want others to believe me so much, but to study the scriptures I give for themselves. That is why I use so many scriptures.

Actually Christ is the head of the Church (His body) and it's by the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) working through others to teach us all in whom ever He choses. God did not create denominations or non-denominations as that came about by man's interpretations of their own doctrines mixed in with the Doctrines of Christ.

1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Cor 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Pastors/Preachers are not mentioned within the giving of Spiritual gifts.

 

[for_his_glory]

The reason for the commandment does not negate the commandment given.

Again, what is the reason given in 1 Tim 2 for forbidding women to have authority over men?

I told you to go back and read my post # 52 and look up the history of the Corinthian church for yourself why Paul told women they are to be silent in the Corinthian church.

 

[for_his_glory]

The women's lib movement of the 1960's change a lot in the way a woman lives her life today.
Coinciding with this movement was the dismantling of prayer in the public schools.
No prayer, no God.

It didn't take long and then abortion was legalized.
Then the government paid for everything.

Though there were some women pastors in churches before this, the movement took off right after this.
After all, if they were not to stay in the home because there children were aborted, they need other avenues to pass their time.
Japan came up with the first bank run by all women.
Going to college instead of staying home with children, women moved right up in the ranks in business with their battle cry of "equality".

Eventually with women now deeply embedded in the work force, a 2 income family became the norm and those who had children went into daycare.

Does anyone see God leading us through all this?
Because I don't.
It is quite common now to see women be leaders in the work force and many more men are now homeless.
Women now marry women and use a sperm bank to have their own children.

In today's churches, we have women pastors, women bishops, lesbian pastors, and who is left to teach the sanctity of the family.
People want to criticize pastors like Joel Osteen, yet his Lakewood church has a large family based ministry.

People often want to blame money on our problems instead of looking at themselves in the mirror.

And look what God said:
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Men/women follow the teachings of men/women as it sounds right to them, but something that sounds right or good to us can be that of our own damnation. This is why we need to study to show our self approved of God not to be approved by men/women.

2Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[crossnote]

1 Timothy 2:12-14 (KJV) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

To put cultural excuses on this prohibition is utterly insane. Paul takes his case all the way back to the beginning, thus transcending cultural excuses.
Paul's words are clear and simple. To wrest his words is to the detriment of the transgressor.
Spending 8 pages debating this clear instruction is a bit over the top.

 

[JLB]

1 Timothy 2:12-14 (KJV) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

To put cultural excuses on this prohibition is utterly insane. Paul takes his case all the way back to the beginning, thus transcending cultural excuses.
Paul's words are clear and simple. To wrest his words is to the detriment of the transgressor.
Spending 8 pages debating this clear instruction is a bit over the top.

And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
1 Timothy 2:12-15


Paul didn’t allow women to have authority or teach over men in the Church structure.

This certainly doesn’t mean he didn’t allow women to teach at all.

Paul, felt it was out of order for a woman to be in authority over men in the home and in the Church setting, especially if they weren’t faithful or walking in love and holiness. Women were to be at home and raise the children and take care of the household. However this doesn’t mean they could never teach, especially after the children were grown.


They were indeed many great women in the Bible who were in positions of authority as well as being prophetess’s.


There is a balance to these things.






JLB

 

[Doug Brents]

I told you to go back and read my post # 52 and look up the history of the Corinthian church for yourself why Paul told women they are to be silent in the Corinthian church.

Having read your comments in post 52, I am at a loss as to your point.

Yes, there may have been women who had the title of apostle (although this is still debatable), but if there were, then their authority would have been over the younger women, and as a balance for their husbands.

But what was going on in Corinth has nothing to do with the instructions given by the Holy Spirit to Paul in his letter to Timothy in Ephesus.

So again, please tell us what Paul said was the reason that women are not to have authority over men in 1 Tim 2.

 

[crossnote]

And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
1 Timothy 2:12-15


Paul didn’t allow women to have authority or teach over men in the Church structure.

This certainly doesn’t mean he didn’t allow women to teach at all.

Paul, felt it was out of order for a woman to be in authority over men in the home and in the Church setting, especially if they weren’t faithful or walking in love and holiness. Women were to be at home and raise the children and take care of the household. However this doesn’t mean they could never teach, especially after the children were grown.


They were indeed many great women in the Bible who were in positions of authority as well as being prophetess’s.


There is a balance to these things.






JLB

I never said ‘never to teach’. People automatically take Paul that way. Of course under the proper covering they can, but it’s by their covering they are showing submission to male authority. Otherwise yes, missionaries, Sunday School teachers etc.

 

[D-D-W]

Yes, there may have been women who had the title of apostle (although this is still debatable), but if there were, then their authority would have been over the younger women, and as a balance for their husbands.

Um - do you know what an apostle does? They oversee groups of congregations, not individuals.

Paul had oversight of all the congregations he started and most of the congregations he wrote to.

 

[JLB]

I never said ‘never to teach’. People automatically take Paul that way

Amen

 

[Doug Brents]

Um - do you know what an apostle does? They oversee groups of congregations, not individuals.

Paul had oversight of all the congregations he started and most of the congregations he wrote to.

No, As we see in Acts 6, the Apostles sole mission was prayer and the ministry of the Word: to spread the Gospel (establish new congregations) and to witness for the risen Christ WHO THEY SAW WITH THEIR OWN EYES. They did not have the same qualifications as Elders, because Paul was single and he was an Apostle.

Paul gave guidance to the early Church, as Peter and other Apostles did, but his primary job war to spread the Gospel and then to correct doctrinal error when it cropped up.

 

[D-D-W]

No, As we see in Acts 6, the Apostles sole mission was prayer and the ministry of the Word: to spread the Gospel (establish new congregations) and to witness for the risen Christ WHO THEY SAW WITH THEIR OWN EYES.

There are several people listed in the NT as apostles that we have no record of them ever seeing the risen Lord. In fact that seems to be ONLY a requirement for the 12. Paul was NOT part of the 12. Neither were Barnabas or James, (NOT the son of Zebedee) and yet both are listed as apostles.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Paul didn’t allow women to have authority or teach over men in the Church structure.

This certainly doesn’t mean he didn’t allow women to teach at all.

JLB

I agree with this. Also, the church structure as I see it as a whole. Meaning, the guys in the body of Christ are out front speaking for the body. It doesn't mean that our role as women is any less.

One of the hardest things to do growing up in a feminist household is to , so I understand the spiritual aspect of when scripture says "quietness and full submission". This would probably be one of my top things I personally need to work on!

 

[Doug Brents]

There are several people listed in the NT as apostles that we have no record of them ever seeing the risen Lord. In fact that seems to be ONLY a requirement for the 12. Paul was NOT part of the 12. Neither were Barnabas or James, (NOT the son of Zebedee) and yet both are listed as apostles.

Paul witnessed the risen Lord on the road to Damascus, and then in the three years of his desert education by the Holy Spirit (and Jesus).

I see several places in Scripture where people are mentioned in the same verse with the word apostle, but none of them prove out, with a little review of the context, to show that those people are Apostles. For example:
Timothy and Silvanus were not Apostles, but exercised Apostolic authority with Paul in their company. (1 Thes 2:6)
Barnabas is the same (Acts 14:14)
Epaphroditus was the messenger of the Philippians, not of God.
And there are others that are similar.

As for Andronicus and Junia, it is most likely that they were well known to the Apostles and thus well respected by them, not that they were numbered among the Apostles.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 Timothy 2:12;
"KJV: "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." RSV: "I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent." GNB: "I do not allow them to teach or to have authority over men; they must keep quiet."

Women have a place in the church.
Teaching other women is appropriate.
But to teach men?
I believe men allow women to teach men because they fail to follow God's word, letting women take control.
This has past on down through Christianity to the point where we don't know up from down.
End times, it is here.

It's the end times because women teach?

The Protestant church I attended has women teaching children because the men didn't want to.
Same for the Catholic Church. Women were teaching children catechism when, actually, the CC would have liked
to have young men do this (maybe in their 30's). It's believed children would pay more attention to them.
However, they were nowhere to be found....

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a great need for men to step up to the mark and to provide leadership.

That God uses women is a rebuke to men.

Agreed.
Men are missing from the scene.

 

[Doug Brents]

It's the end times because women teach?

The Protestant church I attended has women teaching children because the men didn't want to.
Same for the Catholic Church. Women were teaching children catechism when, actually, the CC would have liked
to have young men do this (maybe in their 30's). It's believed children would pay more attention to them.
However, they were nowhere to be found....

Scripturally, it is women’s place to teach children and younger women (Titus 2:4-5).

Not that that is their only place, but that is one of the jobs God gave to them.