Should Christians Have Guns?

[Elijah674]

No. Things are not this simple. The Biblical story is an evolving one and what was "OK" in the Old Testament cannot simply be uncritically accepted in our time. When Jesus initiated the Kingdom of God, he ushered in an order of being where guns are to "melted into plowshares". So what was true for David is not necessarily true for us.

Hi, Elijah here:
Have you ever been at the other end of a gun or a knife? (I have) Anyway, this is the way that I see your verses. And perhaps you as an individual are way ahead of me? Note...

Verse four, is when?? and in context?? Beat their swords into plowshares...'?

I think that it is prophecy after the New Earth is located on earth.
Isa.2

[1] the word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
[2] And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

[3] And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

[4] And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
......

[12] For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
.......
[17] And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

(compare 2 Thess. 2:8-11 for this time period as 'i' see it? 'And then shall the Wicked be revealed!)

[Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.'] )

[18] And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
[19] And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, [when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.]

(Again, see the time/frame in Rev. 6:14-16 + Dan. 12:1-2 for both verses above & beneath)

[20] In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
[21] To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
[22] Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

And another time for when sin is done away with??

Joel 3

[12] Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
[13] Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

[14] Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
[15] The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
[16] The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
[17] So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Another?

Micah 4
[3] And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
[4] But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
.....
Verse 7
[7] And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

That sure sounds like heaven to me? But the point is, do the Lord's children execute Godly judgements, on earth today? Two or three wittnesses, with the Obedient church setting the verdic or punishment as the crime merits? And I also believe that Rom. 13 agrees with Caesar [only] having authority over Gods Second tabel of the Eternal Covenant. The last six Commandments & mankinds duty to man.

I for one believe that they do! Matt. 18:15-18 finds this 'KEY' conditional to the Godheads Commandments. Or the Rev. 2:5 whole candlestick will be removed by God Himself! And the context is that God will do the final execution. Luke 12:47-48

And although fatal criminal execution would be very hard to 'personally' administer, I do belive that God requires (or at least allows for) tough LOVE choices! Joshua 7:24-25, Nah. 1:9, + Obadiah 1:16 being what God really is trying to avoid! And perhaps we stand DIRECTLY IN HIS WAY?? See Numbers 16:1-3?

 

[Deavonreye]

Drew, I still say that it is more than "our country allowing citizens to own guns". If people in this country weren't so inclined to kill, it wouldn't matter. There is something else going on. We have a crime issue in this country that exceeds these other countries. The tool used makes no difference. If they are bound to do crime, they will use whatever means available . . . . and as I said, if they mean to kill, there are far more gruesome ways to go, and far more debilitating injuries to those who survive. Knives, hatchets, swords, etc.

As for Switzerland, it isn't just "military families" that are required to keep firearms.

Regardless, I feel that you may not be seeing this big picture. You seem to be frightened of people owning firearms, specifically handguns. What is the source of this fear?

 

[Pizzaguy]

I never had a daughter, but if I had ....

 

[Drew]

You do not live in the real world, do you?

I feel so sorry for your family, and you.

Well, you really have not made your case. You seem to entirely overlook the fact that many millions of people in other countries go to bed at night without guns and are more safe than you are in the USA.

You are taking the path that many without an actual case make - get "personal" and suggest that I am less of a "man" than you are simply because I do not share your lust for weaponry. You seem so enamoured with the power to take life - with your chest-thumping posts about how "there will be blood" if someone tries to enter your house.

You realize that we are supposed to embrace Christian values here, don't you. What did Jesus say about how we are treat our enemies? Blast them to kingdom come?

I will trot out the hard data shortly.

 

[Drew]

I never had a daughter, but if I had ....

Another way to support your position by "sloganeering".

 

[jasoncran]

I never had a daughter, but if I had ....

well then if you did that isnt the proper way to shoot the firearm.

gacking the weapon wont hit crap.

i can tell she cant aim nor use that weapon,take note of the trigger finger.

massive pull the grip,at 50 yrds miss.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Drew, I still say that it is more than "our country allowing citizens to own guns". If people in this country weren't so inclined to kill, it wouldn't matter. There is something else going on. We have a crime issue in this country that exceeds these other countries. The tool used makes no difference.

Another of your good posts, Deavon, but...

It isn't just killing. It's rape. It's when the creeps in Atlanta hold up a cabbie or citizen, the victim turns over their money or car or whatever - and THEN the creeps kill the person anyway!

We can sit here and philosophize all night about why this happens... but for what?

Fact is, I have pulled a gun on someone twice in ten years. One was a carjacker (as I have spoken about above) and one was a druggie on the street (he may or may not have actually harmed me - but the carjacking was four against one).

My .357 saved my life that night. And no internet discussion can change that.

 

[Pizzaguy]

well then if you did that isnt the proper way to shoot the firearm.

gacking the weapon wont hit crap.

i can tell she cant aim nor use that weapon,take note of the trigger finger.

massive pull the grip,at 50 yrs miss.

Jason, I laughed my head off at your response! Not because you are wrong, but because you are SO right.

 

[demonXecutor]

I suggest this line of thinking avoids the question.

I could equally say "who am I, as a Christian to judge those who rob banks? - I choose to judge myself".

Do you want to have a civil conversation or argue? If you want to argue or misunderstand what I wrote, then you're on your own.

Amplified version to what I wrote,
As for me, I don't own a gun, but I don't oppose other CHRISTIANS who own guns (Who, under the law of the land, are registered gun owners and are not breaking any laws). Who am I, as a Christian (Fellow Believer), to judge others (other Christians) in this matter, as if to say because they own a gun (not breaking the law) and I don't-- makes them less of a Christian? I choose to judge myself (In this matter).

If this isn't clear enough for you, then so be it.

 

[Deavonreye]

Another of your good posts, Deavon, but...

It isn't just killing. It's rape. It's when the creeps in Atlanta hold up a cabbie or citizen, the victim turns over their money or car or whatever - and THEN the creeps kill the person anyway!

We can sit here and philosophize all night about why this happens... but for what?

Fact is, I have pulled a gun on someone twice in ten years. One was a carjacker (as I have spoken about above) and one was a druggie on the street (he may or may not have actually harmed me - but the carjacking was four against one).

My .357 saved my life that night. And no internet discussion can change that.

And I'm sure your decision to save your life wasn't without the thought of the consequences if you had to use it. I am a conceal carry holder and hope to the pestilent gods I never have to use it for the purpose I carry it. And you're right when you illude to the fact of what our society is and who is out there desiring things at another person's cost. There are many weapons that can be used. There were many weapons that could have been used on you, that night.

Facts are facts. Those who desire to commit aggrivated crimes have and can obtain guns and no law will stop that. Many who do [criminals, gang members, etc] already have no legal course of purchasing a firearms, but still get them and will. We have the right to keep ourselves [more importantly, our loved ones] safe. Our country isn't a utopia.

 

[Free]

Do you want to have a civil conversation or argue? If you want to argue or misunderstand what I wrote, then you're on your own.

Amplified version to what I wrote,
As for me, I don't own a gun, but I don't oppose other CHRISTIANS who own guns (Who, under the law of the land, are registered gun owners and are not breaking any laws). Who am I, as a Christian (Fellow Believer), to judge others (other Christians) in this matter, as if to say because they own a gun (not breaking the law) and I don't-- makes them less of a Christian? I choose to judge myself (In this matter).

If this isn't clear enough for you, then so be it.

His response was civil.


In all of this, I find it disturbing that those who profess to follow Christ would be so ready and willing to take a life. It also seems inconsistent with several other Christian beliefs. Christians will argue until they're blue in the face that once one is saved, they're always saved (God will see to it), or that works do not save us, or that God will provide all our needs, or that God can and does heal us. So what's with the self-preservation? What's with the utter lack of trust in God to keep us safe? Why trust God in everything but this? Why is the American Constitution held in higher regard than the Scripture on this point?

And for all the Scripture on swords that get used to "support" gun ownership, one never appears:

Mat 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. (NKJV)

Our country isn't a utopia.

It certainly is not. But it is capitalist to the core and guns are big business. That's the number one reason for the problem but that is also where the solution is.

 

[theLords]

And I'm sure your decision to save your life wasn't without the thought of the consequences if you had to use it. I am a conceal carry holder and hope to the pestilent gods I never have to use it for the purpose I carry it. And you're right when you illude to the fact of what our society is and who is out there desiring things at another person's cost. There are many weapons that can be used. There were many weapons that could have been used on you, that night.

Why would you hope anything of a pestilent god? As, Jason's siggy states "Satan will not show you any mercy"

 

[Sam21]

His response was civil.


In all of this, I find it disturbing that those who profess to follow Christ would be so ready and willing to take a life. It also seems inconsistent with several other Christian beliefs. Christians will argue until they're blue in the face that once one is saved, they're always saved (God will see to it), or that works do not save us, or that God will provide all our needs, or that God can and does heal us. So what's with the self-preservation? What's with the utter lack of trust in God to keep us safe? Why trust God in everything but this? Why is the American Constitution held in higher regard than the Scripture on this point?

And for all the Scripture on swords that get used to "support" gun ownership, one never appears:

Mat 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. (NKJV)



It certainly is not. But it is capitalist to the core and guns are big business. That's the number one reason for the problem but that is also where the solution is.

The bible never says that if a man breaks into your house with a gun that God will supernaturally protect you...sorry but that is not a biblical teaching.

 

[Drew]

Do you want to have a civil conversation or argue? If you want to argue or misunderstand what I wrote, then you're on your own.

My point was entirely legitimate - your line of reasoning is simply not correct. Obviously if we all agreed that owning a gun was not a hazard to the public good, then your line of thinking might work.

But the issue of whether guns poses a public threat is very much on the table. So you cannot short-circuit this by arguing as though this is merely a matter of "judging other people".

Now please give me some actual evidence of my being "uncivil". Good luck.

 

[Drew]

The bible never says that if a man breaks into your house with a gun that God will supernaturally protect you...sorry but that is not a biblical teaching.

This is not really the point. Anyone who wishes to argue that its acceptable for a Christian to have a gun in their house has to deal with the following issues:

1. Even if one accepts that it is morally acceptable for the Christian to kill in self-defence, one needs to deal with the possibility that having the gun in the house will increase the risk that an angry husband will use it on, say, a cheating wife instead of on the feared home invader. Or that a teenager will use it to commit suicide. And so on. Some studies suggest that the risks of having a gun in the house outweigh the "benefit" of killing the intruder.

2. It is pretty clear that many societies exist - with no guns in the hands of the public - where the level of violent crime is lower than in a country like the USA where people have the right to have guns (example: Japan). So one cannot simply assume that the only solution to "home invaders" is to have a gun. Clearly, there are other possibilities.

3. Christians need to remember that the gun is a powerful symbol of the "world's" way of "doing power" - threaten me and I will kill you with this weapon. Well, the cross was Ceasar's way of doing the same thing. And in a great act of irony, seemingly lost on many in this thread, Jesus turned the greatest symbol of the power to deal violent death into a symbol of a new kingdom - one where swords (and yes, gun) should, to the largest extent possible, be beaten into plowshares. Surely we can do better than to be "as good" as the world in using its own power systems.

 

[reba]

His response was civil.


In all of this, I find it disturbing that those who profess to follow Christ would be so ready and willing to take a life.

i posted i was very please DH did not have to kill any one the nite they kicked in ourdoor . reading Pizza i did not catch he killed anyone.

It also seems inconsistent with several other Christian beliefs. Christians will argue until they're blue in the face that once one is saved, they're always saved (God will see to it), or that works do not save us, or that God will provide all our needs, or that God can and does heal us. So what's with the self-preservation?

God has instilled a will to live

What's with the utter lack of trust in God to keep us safe? Why trust God in everything but this?

Common sense to protect ones family and self. Do you wear a jacket to protect you against the cold, Maybe walking stick for dogs, Seat belts?

Why is the American Constitution held in higher regard than the Scripture on this point?

Show me a scripture that tells me not to protect my family and self from the rapist, robber, killer or other bad guy.

And for all the Scripture on swords that get used to "support" gun ownership, one never appears:

Mat 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. (NKJV)

.

<DIR>Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

Joh 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Jesus , Peters Lord did not tell him to drop the sword, nor take it away for storage, nor to get rid of it... Just put it away back at Petes side.


For myself i would like to think ... some one is slaping me saying denie Christ i woud turn the other cheek. I would like to think i would die for the cause of Christ. At the same time i will rightfully protect my family and self.....there i have been


</DIR>

 

[Drew]

Facts are facts. Those who desire to commit aggrivated crimes have and can obtain guns and no law will stop that.

Facts are facts, and I suggest that 'the facts' show that there a number of countries where there is far less gun violence than there is in the USA. You need to substantiate this all too easy claim that "the bad guys will always get guns". Are there not "bad guys" in South Korea? How come the rate of gun crime there is lower than in the USA? Same deal with the UK.

 

[Drew]

Show me a scripture that tells me not to protect my self for the rapist, robber, killer or other bad guy.

This line does not work, although lots of posters use it for lots of arguments. There are no statements in the Bible that pink unicorns do not exist, but that does not mean that they do. More to the point, the Bible is not a massive list of "rules" about what you are allowed to do and not allowed to do.

The problem with the gun is that to take one up is to subtly forfeit the responsibility of the Christian to be a witness for a new way of being human - the way that Jesus exemplified and expects us to model. And I suggest that Jesus rather clearly taught that the way to "greatness" was not be acquiring power - which is precisely what a gun is all about - but by giving up power.

 

[Sam21]

This is not really the point. Anyone who wishes to argue that its acceptable for a Christian to have a gun in their house has to deal with the following issues:

1. Even if one accepts that it is morally acceptable for the Christian to kill in self-defence, one needs to deal with the possibility that having the gun in the house will increase the risk that an angry husband will use it on, say, a cheating wife instead of on the feared home invader. Or that a teenager will use it to commit suicide. And so on. Some studies suggest that the risks of having a gun in the house outweigh the "benefit" of killing the intruder.

2. It is pretty clear that many societies exist - with no guns in the hands of the public - where the level of violent crime is lower than in a country like the USA where people have the right to have guns (example: Japan). So one cannot simply assume that the only solution to "home invaders" is to have a gun. Clearly, there are other possibilities.

3. Christians need to remember that the gun is a powerful symbol of the "world's" way of "doing power" - threaten me and I will kill you with this weapon. Well, the cross was Ceasar's way of doing the same thing. And in a great act of irony, seemingly lost on many in this thread, Jesus turned the greatest symbol of the power to deal violent death into a symbol of a new kingdom - one where swords (and yes, gun) should, to the largest extent possible, be beaten into plowshares. Surely we can do better than to be "as good" as the world in using its own power systems.

An even bigger question should be,"is it morally acceptable for a christian to own and drive a car? Citizens who drive cars kill at least 1000 times more innocent people than do citizens who are registered gun owners.
Your argument is absurd, any human should be allowed to protect their family and being a christian does not exclude us from being human.

 

[Drew]

I want to be clear about something - I fully "understand" the appeal of having a gun to protect self and family. But, hard as it is to accept, the path of the cross can often mean placing oneself at risk for the sake of the kingdom. Besides, we should not pre-suppose that the best solution to the threat of the "home invader" is to arm ourselves. What about achieving economic equality in society to reduce the motivation for people to break into houses and steal? Or better ways of dealing with young offenders. In short, why not try applying some Kingdom of God principles before conceding to the "ways of the world". We are to be a people of light, showing a different way of being human. When we take up the gun, this sends a powerful message that there is not a new King after all (Jesus, of course) and that the world still runs on the same old power structures where goals, even "good" goals like preserving the lives of your family, are pursued with weapons of violence. This is a tough issue, but surely there has to be a better ways than arming ourselves.