Should Christians Keep the Ten Commandments Today???

[Drew]

There are many texts which show that, for Paul, the term "sin" does not always denote transgression of the law.

Consider this one, yet again, from Romans 7:

But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ)I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me

Now if sin can only mean "the event defined by violation of law", then we get this nonsensical statement:

But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ)I am no longer the one doing it, but the event defined by violation of law which dwells in me

Paul clearly has a different sense of what sin really is than mere violation of the law. If we take Paul seriously, and not impose our own systems on him, we must understand that "sin" - at least here - denotes an actor - an agent.

It is only an "agent" or "actor" that can do "the thing I do not want". Saying that "transgression of the law" acts in the world is like saying;

"My breaking of law xxx does the thing that I do not want"

Clearly nonsense. Give Paul the benefit of being able to write properly. He clearly sees "sin" here as an agency, force, or power, not the event by which a law is broken.

 

[Drew]

Yet another text that makes no sense at all if "sin" is understood to always denote breaking of the Law:

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law

Now if "sin" (in the underlined part) denotes the violation of a the law, we have Paul saying this:

...the power of breaking the law is the law

Does this make sense to you? If you were a high school english teacher and someone wrote this, would you not suggest they need to clear up their writing? How is the power of "breaking the law" the law? That's like saying "the power of breaking the dish is the dish". No. Clearly, if Paul knows how to write properly, we need "sin" here to be something that empowered by the law. Note, how the following statement makes sense: "the thing that gives power and energy to sin is X". So despite the fact that it is not obvious how the Law "empowers" sin, we should really assume that Paul knows what he is talking about and not edit him as some here wish to do.

Paul means what he says. And what he is saying here is that sin is a force or agency that is empowered by the law, just as he has said here in Romans 7:

But sin, (Q)taking opportunity (R)through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for (S)apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

Even though people will refuse to admit it, this very text affirms the point - sin is stimulated to life and empowered to life by the "commandment" or "the law". Just as per 1 Cor 15. Sin is a power or agency here.

Note how everything makes sense if we let Paul tell us what in is, and not throw a dictionary at him.

 

[Brother Lionel]

Brother Lionel,
I still see the possibility that they existed along with the other laws for the purpose of creating a unique nation out of Abraham's seed, thereby fulfilling the next step of "the promise."

In a particular sense, this is true because the two Covenants were only made with Israel. And both of these Covenants involved obedience to the Law of God. The Old Covenant was broken because they sought to keep it on their own strength. This is evident because the bible says that the children of Israel agreed to the covenant by proclaiming this promise to the Lord:

Exodus 19:8 “And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.â€Â

Exodus 24:3 “And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.â€Â

Exodus 24:7 “And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.â€Â

No where did they ask God for assistance in keeping His law and living by His will. However, the New Covenant (which again was only promised to Israel) will be different once it is fulfilled. Where do we (Gentiles) fit in if this Covenant was only promised to Israel? That’s where Jesus comes in!! Jesus has “broken down the middle wall of separation†between Jew and Gentile - Eph 2:14. And those who accept Jesus, who is the Mediator of this New Covenant, are a part of spiritual Israel whether you are a Jew or Gentile. So under the New Covenant, God says that this time He will put His laws in our hearts as opposed to us trying to keep it on our own strength. This excludes our merit because we, by nature, are sinful beings. But when we receive our glorified bodies, we will exist without the inherent nature of sin or the propensity to break God’s Law. Thus, we will naturally obey His law for eternity because His laws will be inherently within us. He will “recreate†us without sin within us. And since sin is the transgression of the law, we will naturally keep the law. So, you are correct in that the Law of God exist for the purpose of creating a unique nation out of Abraham's seed, and “if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise†– Galatians 3:29. And the promise is eternal life where both Jews and Gentiles can take part in if we accept the sacrifice of the Mediator of the New Covenant – Jesus.

WERE THE 10C GIVEN TO DISTINGUISH ISRAEL OR GIVE MORAL DOCTRINE?

To understand this question, we have to see what the bible has to say:

Mat 5:17-19 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments."

1 Corinthians 7:19 "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters."

1John 5:2, 3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."

Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."


Here in these verses, they teach obedience to the commandments as a moral doctrine. Jesus proclaims that earth will pass away before we should disregard one of God’s commandments. Revelation shows us that those who accept Jesus as Lord and who lives in obedience to God’s Commandments will have the right to receive eternal life. So, while the Ten Commandments did in fact distinguish Israel, the New Testament teaches that it is also a Moral Doctrine.

 

[Brother Lionel]

So Drew, does Paul disagree with the scriptures that teach us to live in obedience to God's Law?

 

[Drew]

So Drew, does Paul disagree with the scriptures that teach us to live in obedience to God's Law?

I cannot answer this question directly as it is posed. So here is my answer:

1. Paul clearly declares the abolition of the Torah - and by this I mean the entire written code of Law given to the nation of Israel, the 10 C, the "ceremonial" laws, the kosher laws - all of it.

2. Paradoxically, Paul does speak of the establishment of "the law" even though he also says "the law" is retired. But we know, not least from Romans 10, that Paul basically sees Christian faith - believing that Jesus is risen and Lord - as being what it means to obey "the Law" in the age of the new covenant. So there is indeed a way for us to take Paul seriously on both counts - "the Law" has been abolished as a prescriptive code, but has emerged, under the new covenant, in the form of faith - to have faith is to obey the Law.

 

[Drew]

The Old Covenant was broken because they sought to keep it on their own strength.

I disagree and suggest that Paul sees the Old Covenant as being broken precisely becuase the Jews tried to keep the promises of God to themselves.

For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

So the problem was not that they tried to keep the Law by their own strength, it was that they ignored their covenantal responsiblity to be a blessing to the nations. There are other texts that endorse this view as well.

I suggest that this view that Jews were seeking to keep the Law "on their own strength" is an anachronistic retrojection of ideas that were not part of the Jewish worldview - the Jew never felt he needed to "earn" God's favour. Instead he followed the Law as an expression of gratitude for being included in God's family simply on the basis of birth. I concede that I am not arguing the point here, merely asserting it.

 

[Drew]

Where do we (Gentiles) fit in if this Covenant was only promised to Israel? That’s where Jesus comes in!! Jesus has “broken down the middle wall of separation†between Jew and Gentile - Eph 2:14. And those who accept Jesus, who is the Mediator of this New Covenant, are a part of spiritual Israel whether you are a Jew or Gentile.

Just to show that I am not out to disagree with you on every point, I heartily agree with statement.

And since sin is the transgression of the law,..

This position has been substantially counter-argued in this thread. The interested reader in encouraged to read a number of posts where I have argued that sin often cannot be understood as "transgression of the law", without making Paul a confused and incoherent writer.

 

[Drew]

Mat 5:17-19 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, Torah has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Torah, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€Â.

How can one read the Matthew 5 text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Torah do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Torah was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Torah was retired.

 

[Ben Joiner]

Brother Lionel

I'll take time to contemplate those issues in regards to the OT for now. But what is your interpretation of this verse:

[quote"Colossians 2"]6Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. [/quote]

Do you suggest that he means something more specific than the general idea of a Sabbath day?

 

[Brother Lionel]

Sure -
Lets take a look at the passage shall we??

Colossians 2:14-17:
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a festival, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

This text refers to the ceremonial sabbaths found in Leviticus 23:4-44. To clarify this, you can see that in verse 14, it says "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us". According to the bible, the ordinances which were against us were the ceremonial laws:

Deut 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

2 Chronicles 33:8 ...so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.

Furthermore, the text says "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a festival, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ". Notice here that none of the Ten Commandments deal with meat, drink, festival, or the new moons. All of these things comprised the ceremonial laws. Also the artifacts in the sanctuary and the feast days were "shadows" which represented the true substance - Jesus Christ. The entire sanctuary and its sacrificial system was built to represent Jesus. For instance:

The door/gate of the sanctuary: Jesus says that He is the door (John 10:7)

The lamb was sacrificed on the alter for the sins of the people: Jesus is the Lamb of God and was sacrificed for our sins (John 1:29)

The priest washed their hands in the lavar: Jesus washes away our sins (Revelation 1:5)

In the Holy Place, there was the following:
1.) The Table of Showbread: Jesus is bread of life (John 6:35)
2.) The Candlestick: Jesus is the light of the world (John 8:12)
3.) The Alter of Incense: Jesus intercedes for us through our prayers and confessions (1 Timothy 2:5)

The Veil shielded the Shekinah Glory of God from the people: The veil was torn from top to bottom due to the fulfillment of Jesus' sacrifice. Now we can "boldly come before the throne of grace" but only by the intercession of Jesus. (Hebrews 4:16)

In the Most Holy Place, there was the following:
The Mercy Seat: God will have mercy on us and take away our sins only by the blood of the Ultimate Sacrifice - Jesus (Romans 11:27)
The Ten Commandments: Jesus will judge us based on the Diven Law (2 Timothy 4:1 & James 2:12)

So, in Colossians 2:14-17, Paul was referring to the ceremonial law and it's sacrificial system because these laws were against us and Jesus nailed these laws to the cross because He fulfilled them and the sanctuary which was a shadow that represented Him. Many people assume that this text is in reference to the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments but this would contradict with Paul's other writings, his customs, Jesus' customs, as well as other New Testament authors:

Luke 4:16 - And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. (Here we see that Jesus kept the Sabbath as His custom. Being that this was His custom, we can safely assume that Jesus did this His entire life)

Acts 17:2 - And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures. (Here we see that Paul kept the Sabbath His entire life)

1 Corinthians 7:19 - Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing (ceremonial law), but the keeping of the commandments of God is what matters.

1John 2:3, 4 - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 5:2, 3 - By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Revelation 12:17 - And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Brother Lionel]

So Drew,
Could you please explain why Jesus, Paul, and others kept the seventh day Sabbath?

 

[Drew]

Sure -
Lets take a look at the passage shall we??

Colossians 2:14-17:
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a festival, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

This text refers to the ceremonial sabbaths found in Leviticus 23:4-44.

No. This has already been addressed. Here is the argument again:

You do realize that one of the 10 commandments is this:

but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you

In the very text from Colossians that you quote. Paul is clear that the Sabbath law has passed away. He does this quite explicitly, showing that one of the implications of the ordnances being nailed to the cross is that people should not judge others for not honouring the Sabbath.

And the rule about honouring the Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments.

This is a proof-text for what I have been asserting - the 10 commandments are part of the package that has been abolished - nailed to the Cross.

 

[Drew]

So Drew,
Could you please explain why Jesus, Paul, and others kept the seventh day Sabbath?

If you could refer me to a specific text, I will be happy to address it.

If you find one, we have a big problem, because the very text you have posited is a clear statement that one of the "rules" that has been nailed to the cross is the rule about honouring the Sabbath.

Let's be clear - no competent writer would talk about ordnances being nailed to the cross, then tell us that one of the implication of this is that no one should judge you "in respect to the Sabbath", and not expect to be understood as including the Sabbath law in the scope of that which has been nailed to the cross.

That would be like saying "a set of ordnances has been done away with, therefore let no one judge you for driving 100 miles per hour" and yet believing that a previously established law is still in force to the effect that the maximum speed is 60 mph.

 

[Drew]

Furthermore, the text says "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a festival, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ". Notice here that none of the Ten Commandments deal with meat, drink, festival, or the new moons.

With all due respect, do you really expect readers to not notice the bit about the Sabbath day?

And you surely must know that all readers will know that keeping the Sabbath holy is part of the 10 commandments.

 

[shad]

Let's be clear - no competent writer would talk about ordnances being nailed to the cross, then tell us that one of the implication of this is that no one should judge you "in respect to the Sabbath", and not expect to be understood as including the Sabbath law in the scope of that which has been nailed to the cross.

So why does Jesus say "if you love me keep My commandment"? So why does He also say sin no more? Whey does Jesus give us so many commandments? Like "love your enemy" and "love God" "love your neighbor as yourself? They are Jesus' laws.

.

 

[Drew]

Many people assume that this text is in reference to the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments but this would contradict with Paul's other writings, his customs, Jesus' customs, as well as other New Testament authors:

Luke 4:16 - And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. (Here we see that Jesus kept the Sabbath as His custom. Being that this was His custom, we can safely assume that Jesus did this His entire life)

Paul make his statement about the Law - including the Sabbath law from the 10 commandments - after Jesus has gone to the cross.

And, as Paul so clearly says in the very text you quote, it is specifically at Calvary that the "ordnances" were - you guessed it - nailed to the Cross.

There is no contradiction - the Law (including the 10 commandments) were abolished at the cross, not before.

 

[Drew]

So why does Jesus say "if you love me keep My commandment"? So why does He also say sin no more? Whey does Jesus give us so many commandments? Like "love your enemy" and "love God" "love your neighbor as yourself? They are Jesus' laws.

Paul's statement in Colossians is specifically about the written code, including the 10 commandments, that were given to the Jews. It is these set of "laws" that have been abolished.

I am not saying that Jesus is not "free" to give us "new" commands.

It is the written code that was given to the Jews that has been retired.

 

[Drew]

Acts 17:2 - And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures. (Here we see that Paul kept the Sabbath His entire life).

No it does not. All this text proves that he talked to people on the sabbath. That does not necessarily mean he did no work on the Sabbath, as per the law.

 

[Brother Lionel]

Ok, so after Jesus died, why did those who buried Him keep the Sabbath?

Luk 23:52-56 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

 

[Brother Lionel]

And what about this one???

Act 13:13, 15 - Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem. But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.