Should Christians Keep the Ten Commandments Today???

[wavy]

This text refers to the ceremonial sabbaths found in Leviticus 23:4-44.

Yes, I realize SDAs would like this to be the case, but there's no suggestion of this in the passage.

To clarify this, you can see that in verse 14, it says "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us". According to the bible, the ordinances which were against us were the ceremonial laws:

Deut 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

2 Chronicles 33:8 ...so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.

There is absolutely no contextual relation between these passages. The connection is artificial.

Notice here that none of the Ten Commandments deal with meat, drink, festival, or the new moons. All of these things comprised the ceremonial laws. Also the artifacts in the sanctuary and the feast days were "shadows" which represented the true substance - Jesus Christ. The entire sanctuary and its sacrificial system was built to represent Jesus.

All this is predicated upon the SDA's fanciful distinctions...distinctions you have to first prove exist.

Luke 4:16 - And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. (Here we see that Jesus kept the Sabbath as His custom. Being that this was His custom, we can safely assume that Jesus did this His entire life)

Acts 17:2 - And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures. (Here we see that Paul kept the Sabbath His entire life)

So Jesus and Paul, as Jews, went to synagogue services on the Sabbath. And? Jesus also broke the Sabbath according to Jn v.18, a point I brought up earlier in this thread I believe and has gone unaddressed.

1 Corinthians 7:19 - Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing (ceremonial law), but the keeping of the commandments of God is what matters.

1John 2:3, 4 - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 5:2, 3 - By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Revelation 12:17 - And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Just because you see the word 'commandments' doesn't mean it refers to the ten commandments. That's another instance of SDAs reading into the text.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

So Jesus and Paul, as Jews, went to synagogue services on the Sabbath. And? Jesus also broke the Sabbath according to Jn v.18, a point I brought up earlier in this thread I believe and has gone unaddressed.

Wrong, to say this my friend would mean Jesus sinned which is blasphemy, careful now... They accused Jesus of a lot of things, but a sinner He was not...

And what chapter is this verse in because we can address it now?

Just because you see the word 'commandments' doesn't mean it refers to the ten commandments. That's another instance of SDAs reading into the text.

Okay, lets review...

The word "commandment" used in 1 John 5:2,3 in its etymological form is the Greek word "entolē". This word is the same word used in Matthew 19 when Jesus counsels the rich young ruler by telling him to keep the Ten Commandments if he wants to enter life eternal. It is also the same word used in Rev 12:17, Rev 14:12, and Rev 22:14 where the bible teaches obedience to the commandments of God. So what is your understanding of these verses??

 

[wavy]

Wrong, to say this my friend would mean Jesus sinned which is blasphemy, careful now... They accused Jesus of a lot of things, but a sinner He was not...

And what chapter is this verse in because we can address it now

I already gave you the chapter: v (5). I'm accustomed to using Roman numerals for the chapters of the bible.

Okay, lets review...

The word "commandment" used in 1 John 5:2,3 in its etymological form is the Greek word "entolē". This word is the same word used in Matthew 19 when Jesus counsels the rich young ruler by telling him to keep the Ten Commandments if he wants to enter life eternal. It is also the same word used in Rev 12:17, Rev 14:12, and Rev 22:14 where the bible teaches obedience to the commandments of God.

And the same word is used in Eph ii.15, where Jesus effaces them. Now that we've addressed the obvious fact that the word can refer to many things, it is incumbent upon you to show that in the verses you cited they refer specifically to the ten commandments and not to anything else.

But you cannot. All you can do is beg the question of the validity of your SDA dogma.

So what is your understanding of these verses??

I'm not interested in irrelevant questions.

Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

Wrong, to say this my friend would mean Jesus sinned which is blasphemy, careful now... They accused Jesus of a lot of things, but a sinner He was not...

And what chapter is this verse in because we can address it now

I already gave you the chapter: v (5). I'm accustomed to using Roman numerals for the chapters of the bible.

This "sabbath breaking" that you accuse Jesus of is regarding the Talmud which is a man-made set of laws. This thread is about the Ten Commandments, not the Talmud sir...

And the same word is used in Eph ii.15, where Jesus effaces them. Now that we've addressed the obvious fact that the word can refer to many things, it is incumbent upon you to show that in the verses you cited they refer specifically to the ten commandments and not to anything else.

But you cannot. All you can do is beg the question of the validity of your SDA dogma.

Wrong.. This shows that you fail to view the scriptures in context. And some Christians have, in fact, attempted to use this verse to teach the abolishment of the Ten Commandments. Keep in mind that the Jewish society used the term law, statutes, and commandments interchangeably. This is why in Matthew 19, the ruler asked Jesus "which ones", and Jesus begins to quote the Ten Commandments. In this case (which you grossly misapply) Paul says commandments contained in ordinances, so when you look at the OT, you would clearly see that the term ordinances did not refer to the Ten Commandments.

So what is your understanding of these verses??

I'm not interested in irrelevant questions.

Finis,
Eric

Again, does this mean "i dont know"??

 

[wavy]

This "sabbath breaking" that you accuse Jesus of is regarding the Talmud which is a man-made set of laws. This thread is about the Ten Commandments, not the Talmud sir...

Unfortunately that's not what the gospel states. The gospel author says in his own words that 'he [Jesus] was breaking the Sabbath'. No Talmud involved. The burden of proof would be on you to show that the traditions in the Talmud obtained at the time this gospel was written and that the author had these consciously on his mind by showing them from the text itself and not your wishful thinking.

Wrong.. This shows that you fail to view the scriptures in context. And some Christians have, in fact, attempted to use this verse to teach the abolishment of the Ten Commandments. Keep in mind that the Jewish society used the term law, statutes, and commandments interchangeably. This is why in Matthew 19, the ruler asked Jesus "which ones", and Jesus begins to quote the Ten Commandments. In this case (which you grossly misapply) Paul says commandments contained in ordinances, so when you look at the OT, you would clearly see that the term ordinances did not refer to the Ten Commandments.

I'm not interested in the interchange of words or what Jesus may or may not have quoted in the specific setting you allude to. What I asked you to prove, given the range of application the word 'commandments' has, is that it refers specifically to the ten commandments in the passages you cited. You've failed to do that. 'You fail to view the scriptures in context' is a vague remark that does nothing to demonstrate this.

Again, does this mean "i dont know"??

No, what this means is that how I understand these passages has absolutely nothing to do with you defending your understanding of these passages which is the issue up for discussion at the moment.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

Unfortunately that's not what the gospel states. The gospel author says in his own words that 'he [Jesus] was breaking the Sabbath'. No Talmud involved. The burden of proof would be on you to show that the traditions in the Talmud obtained at the time this gospel was written and that the author had these consciously on his mind by showing them from the text itself and not your wishful thinking.

Does the gospels also state that He was sinless?? He cant be both Eric. Either He was God who was perfect, or He was a sinner being that He broke the Sabbath according to your doctrine...

I'm not interested in the interchange of words or what Jesus may or may not have quoted in the specific setting you allude to. What I asked you to prove, given the range of application the word 'commandments' has, is that it refers specifically to the ten commandments in the passages you cited. You've failed to do that. 'You fail to view the scriptures in context' is a vague remark that does nothing to demonstrate this.

Right. You wouldnt be interested and Im viewing the scriptures with error... But you're the one who is saying that Christians shouldnt keep God's Ten Laws...

 

[wavy]

Does the gospels also state that He was sinless?? He cant be both Eric. Either He was God who was perfect, or He was a sinner being that He broke the Sabbath according to your doctrine...

This doesn't address Jn v.18. I would agree with you that the author of John believed Jesus was sinless. The natural inference one should draw from this is that by breaking the Sabbath, the author of John didn't believe Jesus was sinning. In other words, he was exlex.

Right. You wouldnt be interested and Im viewing the scriptures with error... But you're the one who is saying that Christians shouldnt keep God's Ten Laws...

So I guess you can't defend your interpretation that the passages you cited refer specifically to the ten commandments and that your interpretation as such is based on nothing but SDA dogma?

Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

This doesn't address Jn v.18. I would agree with you that the author of John believed Jesus was sinless. The natural inference one should draw from this is that by breaking the Sabbath, the author of John didn't believe Jesus was sinning. In other words, he was exlex.

So if He was in fact sinless, then how can He break one of God's laws? Even He said that He has kept His Father's commandments and abode in His love. The only logical application of John 5 is that they accused Him of breaking their laws found in the Talmud... Furthermore, no where in Gods law does it state that man can not eat on the Sabbath day. But the Talmud says different, whoever laid an egg on the Sabbath would be breakign it. This was a burden, and Jesus removed that burden...

 

[wavy]

So if He was in fact sinless, then how can He break one of God's laws?

As I already said, the author of John believed Jesus was exlex. That is to say, in this case the Sabbath law didn't apply to him.

Even He said that He has kept His Father's commandments and abode in His love.

Then keeping the Sabbath obviously wasn't a command Jesus was obliged to keep.

The only logical application of John 5 is that they accused Him of breaking their laws found in the Talmud...

No, that goes against the plain reading of the text. John doesn't append an explanatory clause saying 'Oh, yeah, but this is only according to Talmudic law'. And again, you would have to show that these extrabiblical traditions obtained at the time John wrote.

Furthermore, no where in Gods law does it state that man can not eat on the Sabbath day.

You've lost yourself. We're in John v, not Matthew xii.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

As I already said, the author of John believed Jesus was exlex. That is to say, in this case the Sabbath law didn't apply to him.

LOL!! Really dude?? So every law in the OT applied except the Sabbath??? LOL!! OK...

Then keeping the Sabbath obviously wasn't a command Jesus was obliged to keep.

LOL!! Well, if He wasnt obligated to keep it, why was it His life-long custom??? Luke 4:16
LOL!! I'll give you an E for effort...

You've lost yourself. We're in John v, not Matthew xii.

Wrong again, the subject is the Sabbath, Jesus prepared and ate on the Sabbath, the Talmud forbade men to do so...

 

[wavy]

And I haven't overlooked the fact that you abandoned a defense of 'commandments' referring specifically to the ten commandments in the verses you cited. I'll take that as cue that you can't do so.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

And I haven't overlooked the fact that you abandoned a defense of 'commandments' referring specifically to the ten commandments in the verses you cited. I'll take that as cue that you can't do so.


Finis,
Eric

I gave you that already. Whether you accept it or not, thats your business...

 

[wavy]

LOL!! Really dude?? So every law in the OT applied except the Sabbath??? LOL!! OK...

Which isn't what I said. There are plenty of laws in the Hebrew bible that I could demonstrate Jesus breaking, but that aside for the moment, (it doesn't matter) you still haven't addressed the plain wording of Jn v.18.

LOL!! Well, if He wasnt obligated to keep it, why was it His life-long custom??? Luke 4:16
LOL!! I'll give you an E for effort...

Even if it was his 'life-long custom' (the italicized element is not actually found in the text) that doesn't mean he was 'obligated' to do so. Customary practice doesn't mean obligation.

'I'll give you an E for effort' is a childish remark that doesn't deserve any serious response.

Wrong again, the subject is the Sabbath, Jesus prepared and ate on the Sabbath, the Talmud forbade men to do so...

There is nothing about eating on the Sabbath in Jn v.18. Like I said, you've confused yourself. You would do well to go review that passage before continuing this discussion.

Finis,
Eric

 

[wavy]

I gave you that already. Whether you accept it or not, thats your business...

No...you didn't. What you did was point out that the word for 'commandments' can refer to the ten commandments, not that it actually does in the passages you listed.

Yes, and it is my business to accept or reject it. But given the fact that you've failed to respond to this criticism, I don't have any rational choice other than to reject it.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

OK enough of the huffing and puffing because we can go all day... :bicker

Is it still a sin to worship other Gods?

 

[wavy]

OK enough of the huffing and puffing because we can go all day... :bicker

Is it still a sin to worship other Gods?

Thank you for proving to us all that you can't defend SDA beliefs.


Finis,
Eric

 

[Brother Lionel]

So is that a yes or no because Im only going to respond to that and you'll respond to what I've written, that equals "nowhere". So, I'll ask again is it still a sin to worship other gods?

 

[Brother Lionel]

Exactly...

 

[wavy]

Exactly...

See avatar. As I pointed out elsewhere, I'm not a Christian. To ask me whether it is a 'sin' to worship other gods is quite frankly a stupid question considering that I don't believe in any gods to be worshiped at all to begin with.

So let's review the points you've failed to address in this thread:

1. Jn v.18 plainly says Jesus broke the Sabbath. The author asserts this himself. He does not attribute it to any Talmudic traditions and you've failed to demonstrate that these Talmudic traditions are present in the text or even obtained in the author's day. (aside from the fact that you haven't even quoted them or referenced these Talmudic traditions) Further, you mentioned something about eating on the Sabbath. As I pointed out, there's nothing about eating in the context of Jn v.18. You're confused over that point. You also erected a straw man that I said Jesus had to obey every law in the Hebrew bible except the Sabbath law, and even if I actually said that it doesn't address Jn v.18 anyway.

2. You say it was Jesus' 'life-long custom' to participate in Sabbath worship. Apparently you haven't distinguished between a custom and an obligation.

3. You haven't given any positive indications that the verses you cited that mention keeping God's 'commandments' have anything to do specifically with the ten commandments. You thought by pointing out a single instance where 'commandments' does refer to the ten commandments, that this magically transfers to the other passages. Anyone not blinded by SDA dogma and with any operating critical faculties, however, sees that that isn't true and that thus far you've failed to defend that interpretation.

You want us all to overlook these errors and other failures by diverging on irrelevant questions. But we all know better, and in light of the above I think it's safe to say that you're beliefs are unreasonable and can't be defended.

'Exactly' indeed...


Finis,
Eric

 

[shad]

So why does Jesus say "if you love me keep My commandment"? So why does He also say sin no more? Whey does Jesus give us so many commandments? Like "love your enemy" and "love God" "love your neighbor as yourself? They are Jesus' laws.

Paul's statement in Colossians is specifically about the written code, including the 10 commandments, that were given to the Jews. It is these set of "laws" that have been abolished.

I am not saying that Jesus is not "free" to give us "new" commands.

It is the written code that was given to the Jews that has been retired.

When Jesus was asked what we should do to be saved, Jesus asked Him back what he is doing, he said he kept all ten commandments. What did Jesus say? Jesus says continue doing it. He did not tell Him he did not have to keep ten commandments.

Drew, you are leading people astray with your preaching. Jesus did not die so we have permission to sin.
.