Sinless To Be Saved

[onlysaved]

Prayer is the great means of salvation!

That's completely non biblical

 

[onlysaved]

And

in that chapter vs 8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well

And the only person to have ever done that well enough to be meritious was Jesus. Everyone else has done it to the level of abject failure.

 

[Fish153]

we are justified not saved!

"He that has the Son HAS life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God". (1 John 5: 12, 13)

Salvation is something GOD WANTS us to KNOW we HAVE right now!! Yes-- we are justified but we are also saved ALREADY when we accept Jesus Christ into our lives. Salvation is a GIFT given to us by God---it is NOT something YOU CAN EARN by being good. So many on this board have been trying to show that to you. It is not a PROUD thing to say "I am saved"--it is a humble thing-based on BELIEVING WHAT GOD SAYS! He WANTS us to KNOW we HAVE eternal life RIGHT NOW. We cannot EARN IT---it is GIVEN to us. Don't you see???

 

[GodsGrace]

I gave several passages where Jesus himself teaches faith alone. We could look at what the writers themselves say, such as here:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (ESV)

You gave no scripture that states that faith ALONE will save anyone.
You posted scripture that states that we are to BELIEVE in Jesus to be saved.

No one ever replies to my question as to what BELIEVE means....
Because the reply would be uncomfortable.

Any verse that states that we are to believe in Jesus means that we are to
OBEY Jesus, to FOLLOW Him...to use Him a our example...

It is not a simple mind belief...it is a belief that brings us to DO what our teacher, Jesus, taught that we are to do.

Jesus said that we must be born from above in order to see the Kingdom of God. (here).
Unbelievers do not see the Kingdom of God.

Then Jesus went on to explain HOW we are to become members of the Kingdom.
By our behavior:

The Beatitudes
Matthew 5 to 8
Here Jesus teaches how our behavior needs to change to copy HIS teachings.

ALL WHO RECEIVE HIM...
ALL WHO BELIEVE IN HIS NAME...

The above, which you posted, means that we are to copy our teacher.

To BELIEVE means to do as Jesus taught.

He is repeating exactly what Jesus taught--salvation is found in believing in the name of Jesus.

Sure.
But, again, what does BELIEVE mean?

They simply restored the biblical gospel, rather than the false gospel of works.

This is very incorrect.
The original church taught good works.
The church right after the Apostles never taught faith alone.

Faith alone is a concept brought about by the Reformation and based on Ephesians 2:8-9.

I find this article interesting:

here are two verses in the Bible that seem to absolutely contradict. They are:

Romans 3:23: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.

James 2:24: You see then that by works a man is justified and not by faith only.

Martin Luther, the sixteenth-century Reformer, offered his doctor's cap to anyone who could reconcile those two verses. His own reconciliation of those verses was that the Epistle of James was an "epistle of straw" that had "nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it.

It is obvious from the book of Acts (e.g., ch. 15) and from Galatians 2 that James did understand the Gospel and that James and Paul agreed on it. It is obvious from history that the churches of all the apostles got along just fine. They saw no conflict between Paul and James. The problem lies with Martin Luther's understanding, not with a conflict between James and Paul.

When I first began reading the fathers I was thrilled to find this seeming contradiction in the letter of Polycarp to the Philippians:

"In whom, though now ye see Him not, ye believe, and believing, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory; into which joy many desire to enter, knowing that by grace ye are saved, not of works, but by the will of God through Jesus Christ."

and ...

"But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness ..."

POLYCARP'S QUALIFICATIONS

Polycarp was the bishop (head pastor) of the church in Smyrna. Most historians think he was appointed by the apostle John. Smyrna was one of only two churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 that was not rebuked by Jesus. His credentials as a shepherd and teacher are as good as anyone's who has ever lived outside of the apostles themselves.

I loved this seeming contradiction in Polycarp's letter because it made it clear that Polycarp understood the conflict between Romans 3:28 and James 2:24. Polycarp's "contradiction" is much like the "contradiction" between Paul's words in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Ephesians 5:5.

In modern times, we wrestle with James 2 so much that we dare not simply repeat what James said, "So we see then that we are justified by works and not faith only." Most evangelical churches would silence us for saying such a thing, but it is a Bible quote!

That is a problem. A big one!

THE SOLUTION

Polycarp did not have that problem. He knew that we "have been" saved (past tense) by faith apart from works, but that if we want to be raised up with Jesus on the last day (future tense), then we better have used the power of our salvation to produce good works through our life. This lines up with what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10 and explains why he could write both that passage and Ephesians 5:5.

source: https://www.christian-history.org/Early_Church_History_Newsletter-faith-works-and-the-fathers.html

You seem to be using an argument from Catholicism, but it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what "faith alone" means, and what Protestants (really, the Bible) mean by "justification." In doing so, you have twisted James's words to mean something difference than what he is saying.

No.

I post the scripture.
It speaks for itself.

James said that faith without works is dead.

It takes good works to keep our faith alive.

What you and others are saying pits Paul against James.
In which case, the NT would not be reliable and we'd have to choose which of the writers to believe.

part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

part 2 of 2

Of course good works are evidence of salvation.

But it goes beyond that....

IF we are to be disciples of Jesus...
then we must do good works as HE taught.

Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

and Paul said we are to be transformed:

Romans 12:1-2
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

The above means that we are to offer our lives to God...
what we do every day - whatever it may be.
It means to fix our attention on God...and we will change.
This is the will of God.

There is simply no way to take what I have said and understand it as me saying that "we can be saved but not have to obey God." That's taking what I have said completely out of context, just as you have done with James 2.

I do not take James 2 out of context.
He agrees with Paul and Jesus.
There is no conflict in the NT.

Why are we debating this if you agree?

Why are Christians debating whether or not good works are necessary or whether or not we need to obey God?

The statement is made: "we're saved by faith FOR good works".

OK. And I'm saying good works are necessary since that is the reason we're saved.

§So why the debate??

I have repeatedly stated, as have others, that obedience is evidence of having been saved (justified). That means that if someone believes that "we can be saved but not have to obey God," then they are not saved.

On this very Forum a few years ago, a member stated that one could blaspheme God and still be saved.
This is what OSAS brings one to believe.

Someone on here said that we must decide if we want to believe Jesus OR do good works...one brings to heaven and one to hell. Instead, we must do BOTH. see post 196.

Another poster stated that we need not change....sorry I can't find it (might be on a different forum), but it was just a few days ago. These statements are consistent among the OSAS believers precisely due to this belief system.

It is incorrect and not what Jesus taught.

Again, I have repeatedly stated such. So, where is the straw man?

The strawman:
We are saved by faith.

Exactly.

Not what I'm debating.
Of course we're saved by faith.

What about AFTER salvation?

Is obedience necessary OR NOT??

There you have it. You're contradicting yourself. You say, "FOR salvation obedience is NOT necessary." But look at what you just posted above:

"I said: WE MUST OBEY GOD.

You said: NOT FOR SALVATION.

So, IOW....we can be saved but not have to obey God?"

But you said the exact same thing! So, why is it that when I say obedience isn't necessary for salvation you take it to mean that I am saying "we can be saved but not have to obey God," but when you say obedience isn't necessary for salvation, you're correct? lol

Strawman. Read what I said carefully.
§We CANNOT be saved by good works.
Faith is necessary for good works.
Unbelievers are not required to do good works (although they do).
Believers are REQUIRED to do good works.

Seems very clear to me.

Not for salvation. We obey because that is what our hearts desire, which is the very evidence we are saved (justified).

Yes. Not for salvation.

What about after?

Is obedience necessary or not?

This is what JohnTB taught:

John 3:34-36
34“For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.
35“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John said....he who BEIEVES in the Son has eternal life....
John meant he who follows the Son....
The person that does not obey the Son will not see life.

Believe and obey are not pitted against each other...
both are needed.

Exactly what I have been saying! "If you love me." Our obedience comes out of love for Christ and is the evidence we love him.


Yes! If our obedience keeps us saved, that is no different than saying our obedience saves. It is works salvation and Paul says that anyone who teaches that works are necessary for salvation is to be considered accursed.

John 3:36 our obedience keeps us saved.
If we do not obey God...
it means we are abandoning God and cannot possibly continue to be saved.

If we deny God, He will also deny us.
2 Timothy 2:12

Disobedience is denying God.

The question is: does disobedience cause us to lose our salvation?

Of course.
It's returning to the world system.

2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”


I could post verses on falling away....
falling away from what??
Our faith, of course.

Exactly! "If we believe in him"--faith alone.

No Free.
Believe in Him does not mean faith alone.

Believe means TO DO....
Faith plus something else.

Anything we add to faith destroys faith alone.

Did Jesus say to pray?
That destroys faith alone.

All those verses clearly teach faith alone for salvation. In no way whatsoever am I saying that "obedience is not necessary" after we are saved, but again, obedience is not required to "keep us saved." You have completely misunderstood and twisted what I have said, likely because you're believing what Catholics think Protestants believe.

LOL
I think I know what Catholics believe, since I've taught it,
and
What Protestants believe, since I'm one.

 

[GodsGrace]

All! God desires not the death of the sinner but the he repents and is converted and the angels rejoice! paraphrasing of course

Lk 2:10-11
Lk 2:30-31
Jn 1:29
Jn 3:16
all people ! new covenant is universal (Catholic)

but grace is resistible!

we must choose and obey abide and endure to the end!

Amen

OK.
You mean that the New Covenant is available to all...
Available.

I hope everyone reading along catches that....

Not everyone DESIRES to be saved.
It's a free will choice.

God desires that all be saved

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


But, of course, there's a condition:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life

 

[GodsGrace]

That's completely non biblical

Praying in non-biblical?
If we pray for our salvation, will God not hear us?

And, I'd like to add, that you continue to state that God does everything and we get to do nothing....

How would you understand the following verses by Matthew and Paul which indicate that it is US that need to DO:



Matthew 26:41 Jesus said to His disciple in the Garden:
40And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?
41“Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Take note: Jesus told the disciples to pray that they do not enter into temptation.
Sounds like something they have to DO.

Just as Jesus taught in Matthew 7:24


Ephesians 6:10-12 We're told to stand firm....Because we struggle against dark powers.
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:18 We're told to stay alert....
18With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance


Prayer is good.
Prayer can save.
Prayer is necessary.

Prayer is not unbiblical.... (as you state)
prayer is what saves a person...
when he cries out to God.

 

[Free]

You gave no scripture that states that faith ALONE will save anyone.

I gave several, from Jesus's own mouth no less.

You posted scripture that states that we are to BELIEVE in Jesus to be saved.

Which is to put one's faith in Jesus, in John's gospel.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV)

Joh 2:11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
...
Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. (ESV)

How does your definition of "believe"--" to OBEY Jesus, to FOLLOW Him...to use Him a our example"--fit with these verses? To me, it can't, and it is abundantly clear that they mean these people put their faith and trust in Jesus.

No one ever replies to my question as to what BELIEVE means....
Because the reply would be uncomfortable.

Not at all. Believe has different meanings. It can simply mean to believe something to be true. But it also goes further than that and is sometimes used as a synonym of faith, which is how John often uses it (he doesn't even use "faith").

From M. R. Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament (on John 1:12):

"Believe on (πιστευούσιν εἰς)

The present participle, believing, indicates the present and continuous activity of faith. The word is used by John, sometimes with the dative case simply meaning to believe a person or thing; i.e., to believe that they are true or speak the truth. . . . To believe in, or on, is more than mere acceptance of a statement. It is so to accept a statement or a person as to rest upon them, to trust them practically; to draw upon and avail one's self of all that is offered to him in them."

From A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament (on John 1:12):

"On his name (eis to onoma). Bernard notes pisteuō eis 35 times in John, to put trust in or on. See also Jhn 2:23 and Jhn 3:36 for pisteuō eis to onoma autou. "

I honestly don't know how any believer could not know this.

Any verse that states that we are to believe in Jesus means that we are to
OBEY Jesus, to FOLLOW Him...to use Him a our example...

Not necessarily. To "believe in the name of Jesus," as is stated several times in John's gospel (which I previously provided) is to believe in all that Jesus is and all that he has done for our salvation. For example:

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

So, according to your too narrow understanding of "believe"--"to OBEY Jesus, to FOLLOW Him...to use Him a our example"--Jesus is saying here that only works save us. But that is antithetical to what Paul says. So, you have Paul contradicting Jesus.

However, what Jesus is clearly saying is that those who don't put their faith in him will perish.

It is not a simple mind belief...it is a belief that brings us to DO what our teacher, Jesus, taught that we are to do.

Why would anyone "DO what our teacher, Jesus, taught that we are to do"? Could it be because they believed what he said and put their faith and trust in him? If not, then you're teaching salvation by works, contradicting Paul.

Jesus said that we must be born from above in order to see the Kingdom of God. (here).
Unbelievers do not see the Kingdom of God.

Of course. What does this have to do with anything?

Then Jesus went on to explain HOW we are to become members of the Kingdom.
By our behavior:

The Beatitudes
Matthew 5 to 8
Here Jesus teaches how our behavior needs to change to copy HIS teachings.

ALL WHO RECEIVE HIM...
ALL WHO BELIEVE IN HIS NAME...

The above, which you posted, means that we are to copy our teacher.

To BELIEVE means to do as Jesus taught.

Here you're again teaching salvation by works, contradicting Paul.

 

[Free]

Sure.
But, again, what does BELIEVE mean?

This was in response to: "He is repeating exactly what Jesus taught--salvation is found in believing in the name of Jesus."

What does believing in the name of Jesus mean, and how does that bring us salvation?

This is very incorrect.
The original church taught good works.

Look at this quote from the article you provided below: "He knew that we "have been" saved (past tense) by faith apart from works." That is exactly what I have stated. The RCC eventually added works onto that, in clear defiance of and objection to Paul.

The church right after the Apostles never taught faith alone.

Faith alone is a concept brought about by the Reformation and based on Ephesians 2:8-9.

Imagine that! Basing faith alone on a passage of Scripture which actually teaches faith alone, as opposed to works. Yet, you say that is incorrect.

I find this article interesting:

here are two verses in the Bible that seem to absolutely contradict. They are:

Romans 3:23: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.

James 2:24: You see then that by works a man is justified and not by faith only.

Martin Luther, the sixteenth-century Reformer, offered his doctor's cap to anyone who could reconcile those two verses. His own reconciliation of those verses was that the Epistle of James was an "epistle of straw" that had "nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it.

It is obvious from the book of Acts (e.g., ch. 15) and from Galatians 2 that James did understand the Gospel and that James and Paul agreed on it. It is obvious from history that the churches of all the apostles got along just fine. They saw no conflict between Paul and James. The problem lies with Martin Luther's understanding, not with a conflict between James and Paul.

When I first began reading the fathers I was thrilled to find this seeming contradiction in the letter of Polycarp to the Philippians:

"In whom, though now ye see Him not, ye believe, and believing, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory; into which joy many desire to enter, knowing that by grace ye are saved, not of works, but by the will of God through Jesus Christ."

and ...

"But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness ..."

POLYCARP'S QUALIFICATIONS

Polycarp was the bishop (head pastor) of the church in Smyrna. Most historians think he was appointed by the apostle John. Smyrna was one of only two churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 that was not rebuked by Jesus. His credentials as a shepherd and teacher are as good as anyone's who has ever lived outside of the apostles themselves.

I loved this seeming contradiction in Polycarp's letter because it made it clear that Polycarp understood the conflict between Romans 3:28 and James 2:24. Polycarp's "contradiction" is much like the "contradiction" between Paul's words in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Ephesians 5:5.

In modern times, we wrestle with James 2 so much that we dare not simply repeat what James said, "So we see then that we are justified by works and not faith only." Most evangelical churches would silence us for saying such a thing, but it is a Bible quote!

That is a problem. A big one!

THE SOLUTION

Polycarp did not have that problem. He knew that we "have been" saved (past tense) by faith apart from works, but that if we want to be raised up with Jesus on the last day (future tense), then we better have used the power of our salvation to produce good works through our life. This lines up with what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10 and explains why he could write both that passage and Ephesians 5:5.

source: https://www.christian-history.org/Early_Church_History_Newsletter-faith-works-and-the-fathers.html

This article must have been written by a Catholic, due to the clear straw man against Protestants. It isn't much of a problem (just as there is no problem between Eph. 2:8-9 and Eph. 5:5). It just takes some proper study.

The solution is that Paul and James were using two different definitions of "justified." I have dealt with this repeatedly in several threads. Paul is talking about "being declared righteous;" James is talking about works that are evidence of having been justified.

James said that faith without works is dead.

It takes good works to keep our faith alive.

No, that isn't what he is saying, at all. You're divorcing that statement of James from the context. Read the context. He is saying that good works are evidence of an actual saving faith.

What you and others are saying pits Paul against James.
In which case, the NT would not be reliable and we'd have to choose which of the writers to believe.

Not at all. It is you who is pitting Paul against James. Paul is unequivocal in teaching that doing works for salvation is a false gospel. You simply don't understand what I and others are saying.

 

[Free]

part 2 of 2

Of course good works are evidence of salvation.

But it goes beyond that....

It does in the Catholic Church, perhaps, but not in Scripture.

IF we are to be disciples of Jesus...
then we must do good works as HE taught.

Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

and Paul said we are to be transformed:

Romans 12:1-2
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

The above means that we are to offer our lives to God...
what we do every day - whatever it may be.
It means to fix our attention on God...and we will change.
This is the will of God.

Of course. I have never said otherwise. This is just evidence that you really don't understand what I and others are saying; what the Reformers mean by "faith alone."

I do not take James 2 out of context.
He agrees with Paul and Jesus.
There is no conflict in the NT.

Of course. But you are putting them into conflict. Remember, Paul and James are using two different definitions of "justified."

Why are we debating this if you agree?

Why are Christians debating whether or not good works are necessary or whether or not we need to obey God?

The statement is made: "we're saved by faith FOR good works".

OK. And I'm saying good works are necessary since that is the reason we're saved.

§So why the debate??

Because you have made statements that contradict that. You previously stated: "Everyone is saved by faith in God and obedience to God." That is works salvation. That is entirely different than "we're saved by faith FOR good works." Honestly, it seems your theology is all over the place on this issue.

On this very Forum a few years ago, a member stated that one could blaspheme God and still be saved.
This is what OSAS brings one to believe.

Or maybe that is just what Scripture teaches:

Mar 3:28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,
Mar 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— (ESV)

Perhaps you're taking what was said out of context.

Someone on here said that we must decide if we want to believe Jesus OR do good works...one brings to heaven and one to hell. Instead, we must do BOTH. see post 196.

You have clearly taken that out of context. The context is salvation--"Our salvation rests on the work God has done. Not the works we do.. that's the Gospel." What you are quoting from follows that statement:

"Do you put your trust in Christ?
Or do you put your faith in your good works and obedience? You cannot do both!
One choice leads to salvation then other to Hell."

The point there is clearly that we are either saved by "trust in Christ" or "faith in your good works and obedience." It has nothing to do with doing good works after we are saved, out of obedience. Please, keep things in context.

Another poster stated that we need not change....sorry I can't find it (might be on a different forum), but it was just a few days ago. These statements are consistent among the OSAS believers precisely due to this belief system.

I have strong reason to believe that you took this out of context as well, although, certainly some might believe that. But, they are wrong to believe that.

But, it is not at all "consistent among the OSAS believers," having absolutely nothing to do with "this belief system." I'm pretty sure my whole denomination believes OSAS, yet I know of not one person in my church that believes this. It is a straw man.

It is incorrect and not what Jesus taught.

I agree.

The strawman:
We are saved by faith.

How is that a straw man? I'm saying what Scripture teaches, not what someone else is arguing.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. (ESV)

(Notice how many times Paul says it is by or through faith. See also the entirety of chapter 4.)

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
…
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. (ESV)

(Again, "by faith.")

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (ESV)

Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
...
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

 

[Free]

Exactly.

Not what I'm debating.
Of course we're saved by faith.

That is the debate. The problem is that you are saying contradictory things.

What about AFTER salvation?

Is obedience necessary OR NOT??

For salvation? No. That would be the very same thing as saying our works save us, which is the very thing you just denied--"Of course we're saved by faith."

Look again at what Jesus said, which you posted:

John 14:15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

We obey out of love; our obedience is evidence of our having been justified.

Strawman. Read what I said carefully.
§We CANNOT be saved by good works.
Faith is necessary for good works.
Unbelievers are not required to do good works (although they do).
Believers are REQUIRED to do good works.

You're being so contradictory, that I don't even know what you actually believe. There is no straw man on my part. Again, to quote your post:

'"I [which is you] said: WE MUST OBEY GOD.

You [which is me] said: NOT FOR SALVATION.

So, IOW....we can be saved but not have to obey God?"'

You are saying that my claim that we do not obey God for salvation means that "we can be saved but not have to obey God." However, as I pointed out, you also said: "FOR salvation obedience is NOT necessary." That is exactly what I said. So, where is the straw man, when I've simply quoted you?

And, again, as I previously pointed out, you previously stated: "Everyone is saved by faith in God and obedience to God." You're saying here that faith and works save us, but then up above you say "We CANNOT be saved by good works."

You really need to make up your mind. Is it faith or faith plus works that save? According to the Bible, it's just faith, with good works being the evidence.

Seems very clear to me.

You may think so, but you're continually contradicting yourself, so it really doesn't seem that it's as clear to you as you think.

Yes. Not for salvation.

See, again the contradiction.

What about after?

Is obedience necessary or not?

I have repeatedly answered that we are to obey, out of love; it is the evidence of one's faith. If it's obedience not done out of love, but only because God commands obedience, then that is straight salvation by works without faith.

Believe and obey are not pitted against each other...
both are needed.

Not for salvation.

John 3:36 our obedience keeps us saved.
If we do not obey God...
it means we are abandoning God and cannot possibly continue to be saved.

Incorrect. To say that "our obedience keeps us saved," is no different than saying "our obedience saves us."

If we deny God, He will also deny us.
2 Timothy 2:12

Disobedience is denying God.

Of course.
It's returning to the world system.

Just like that? Sin is disobedience. Are you perfect and never sin? Or are you saved one minute and not saved the next and then saved again based on your works? That would be salvation by works and not faith.

No Free.
Believe in Him does not mean faith alone.

It does in John's gospel. And Paul says the same, repeatedly. Like here, for instance:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

No works. Just faith.

Believe means TO DO....
Faith plus something else.

Anything we add to faith destroys faith alone.

Did Jesus say to pray?
That destroys faith alone.

See, you clearly don't understand what "faith alone" means. These are Catholic arguments.

LOL
I think I know what Catholics believe, since I've taught it,
and
What Protestants believe, since I'm one.

My point is that you're using arguments straight out of Catholicism and ignoring or misunderstanding what Protestants believe.

 

[onlysaved]

Praying in non-biblical?
If we pray for our salvation, will God not hear us?

And, I'd like to add, that you continue to state that God does everything and we get to do nothing....

How would you understand the following verses by Matthew and Paul which indicate that it is US that need to DO:



Matthew 26:41 Jesus said to His disciple in the Garden:
40And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?
41“Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Take note: Jesus told the disciples to pray that they do not enter into temptation.
Sounds like something they have to DO.

Just as Jesus taught in Matthew 7:24


Ephesians 6:10-12 We're told to stand firm....Because we struggle against dark powers.
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:18 We're told to stay alert....
18With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance


Prayer is good.
Prayer can save.
Prayer is necessary.

Prayer is not unbiblical.... (as you state)
prayer is what saves a person...
when he cries out to God.

1. I took the comment to mean praying brings about salvation as though it were a work you had to do to be saved, not praying for salvation. If I am mistaken then I apologize.

I never said we get to do nothing nor did I imply it. What I have been saying is that we can do nothing to affect our salvation. It's 100% God's work.. We out of thankfulness and love for what God has done for us give our lives to Christ. Even the good works that we do get to do were prepared in advance for us to walk in.

Writing the Bible was 100% God's work the authors still had to write it. It's still God's work.

 

[onlysaved]

Justification takes place at the moment of faith and is complete at that event.
Sanctification. Takes place eternally at the moment of faith, temporarily it continues as a process throughout the believers life and is not complete until we are leave our bodies.
Salvation takes place at the moment of faith, is permanent and is always accompanied by a life long faith and good works. The salvation occurs however before and works.

These words and a few others are all related and used somewhat interchangeably in the Bible.

If a person is saved, they are also justified and sanctified and being sanctified

A person who is justified is saved and is sanctified and being sanctified.

A person who is sanctified is being sanctified , is saved and justified.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

how does it remove free will
yes a new heart in the baptism / born again grace but still not restored to the state of perfection until we are glorified

must to abide in Christ and bear fruit in Love Jn 15:4 Jude

show me "faith alone" in these verses?

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John theBaptist until now the kingdom ofheaven suffereth violence, and theviolent take it by force.

1 Peter 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

thks

Sorry for the late reply it doesn't remove free will I believe we can freely choose or not choose Christ it is a gift that he doesn't force on us just as we can freely choose to obey him or not

 

[donadams]

That's completely non biblical

is Jesus Christ biblical?

is Jesus Christ the only savior?

is Jesus Christ the truth?
Jn 14:6

eternal words of Christ
Matthew 26:41

Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

thanks

 

[donadams]

And

And the only person to have ever done that well enough to be meritious was Jesus. Everyone else has done it to the level of abject failure.

Lk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

rev 12:17 Marys spiritual children keep the commandments

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Praying in non-biblical?
If we pray for our salvation, will God not hear us?

And, I'd like to add, that you continue to state that God does everything and we get to do nothing....

How would you understand the following verses by Matthew and Paul which indicate that it is US that need to DO:



Matthew 26:41 Jesus said to His disciple in the Garden:
40And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?
41“Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Take note: Jesus told the disciples to pray that they do not enter into temptation.
Sounds like something they have to DO.

Just as Jesus taught in Matthew 7:24


Ephesians 6:10-12 We're told to stand firm....Because we struggle against dark powers.
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:18 We're told to stay alert....
18With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance


Prayer is good.
Prayer can save.
Prayer is necessary.

Prayer is not unbiblical.... (as you state)
prayer is what saves a person...
when he cries out to God.

GodsGrace, why do you pile comment upon comment and passage upon passage to make it very hard for people to discuss your thoughts? Don't you want to discuss them for fear that you might have to change them? You say too much for us to have a meaningful conversation.

 

[donadams]

"He that has the Son HAS life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God". (1 John 5: 12, 13)

Salvation is something GOD WANTS us to KNOW we HAVE right now!! Yes-- we are justified but we are also saved ALREADY when we accept Jesus Christ into our lives. Salvation is a GIFT given to us by God---it is NOT something YOU CAN EARN by being good. So many on this board have been trying to show that to you. It is not a PROUD thing to say "I am saved"--it is a humble thing-based on BELIEVING WHAT GOD SAYS! He WANTS us to KNOW we HAVE eternal life RIGHT NOW. We cannot EARN IT---it is GIVEN to us. Don't you see???

no not saved in the sense of full eternal salvation in glory

saved refers to any part of the process of salvation like eph 2:8 is redemption a part of the process

eternal life is the life of God we share in Christ called grace

we cannot merit grace but when we have it by justification or faith and baptism we can increase it by good work's supernatural gifts of God prayer virtures etc. build up for yourselves treasuin heaven and we can lose it by sin see gal chapter 5 & eph chapter 5

summary

Living members of Christ:

In the new covenant of grace by faith and baptism: Mk 16:16
union with God in Christ, communion with the saints:
Mt 28:20 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32

Abide in Christ and bear fruit: Jn 15:4

Deny thyself take up thy cross and follow Christ the good shepherd on the narrow road that leads to life:
mt 7:14 mt 16:24 phil 1:29

With prayer, fasting, alms, mass & sacraments, and the practice of the virtues of Jesus Christ: mt 7:7
mt 11:2 1 cor 13:13

Keeping ourselves in the love of God. Jude 1:21

Enduring to the end Matt 10:22

By the Supernatural good works the virtues of Jesus Christ (gifts of God) and the gifts of the holy spirit we can increase the grace we have received and by sin can lose all grace and salvation!

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 acts 22:16 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Redemption :
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 eph 2:1-8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.

Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

thks

 

[onlysaved]

Lk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

rev 12:17 Marys spiritual children keep the commandments

Righteousness in God's sight= doing what they do because of faith it doesn't mean sinless perfection.

And Mary is not the woman in revalation.. and her "children " is the church.

Mary is Jesus's physical mother and a follower of Jesus and that's all. At least that's what the Bible says.. church traditions are utterly worthless.

 

[onlysaved]

Full eternal salvation in glory is the only kind of salvation there is.
There are two potential eternal reality
1. In heaven with God
2. In hell dying an eternal death in Hell

No in between places. No escape from either one ever. You either love God and you spend eternity with Him in worship or you don't.