So, you believe Christ died for your sins, really???

[Fnerb]

Over and over, the Gospels discuss how we are to be saved - by faith working in love. Not by knowledge of theology or Scriptures.

When asked to give an example of faith, whom did Jesus hold up? A doctor? Some great disciple? No ... he pointed to a Child. I am not saying that each of us should not explore and build on our knowledge of our faith, but this splitting hairs over things is mind-numbing. I oringally came to these forums to grow and learn in my faith ... and yet I see so much division.

Faith without works is dead, says James, and Faith without love is meaningless, says Paul. It would only be natural to say that the Bible would agree with Christ's own teachings - that a loveless "faith", a faith without love, is not faith at all. Those who have faith in God obey Him and His Commandments, because Christ abides in him.

At first glance he told me, it may seem as though James and Paul are fighting each other. One is declaring grace by faith alone - no works, and the other is declaring that there is no faith without works. However, you need to take these books into context. Paul is preaching to those whom feel that they have something through works to add to their salvation. James is preaching to those chrisitans who think they can just sit back and coast through life.

I don't stand agains OSAS because I don't want the comfort of knowing my Lord and Savior has a firm grasp on me, I do so for the reminder that I am a sinful being - one whom will doubt, will sin. I hate my sinful nature for it. I need a that daily repentance to humble me to the cross and must remember to constantly look to the cross for everything. Maybe God has blessed me with a little bit more of a tender conscience than others. But that doesn't mean any I feel or believe that Christ's death is any less powerful. It just shows me how cunning and powerful Satan is.

(Sorry ... can't say there is always a big point to my blabber sometimes...)

 

[francisdesales]

When asked to give an example of faith, whom did Jesus hold up? A doctor? Some great disciple? No ... he pointed to a Child. I am not saying that each of us should not explore and build on our knowledge of our faith, but this splitting hairs over things is mind-numbing. I oringally came to these forums to grow and learn in my faith ... and yet I see so much division.

Good points. Yes, we are to trust God. As a child.

I am not surprised to see so much division here. Unfortunately, there are a lot of modern day "Pharisees" who condemn everyone who doesn't think exactly along their line of thought. It does take some patience to begin to tear down some of these walls of prejudice. I believe God will be more accepting of men then we are of each other...

At first glance he told me, it may seem as though James and Paul are fighting each other. One is declaring grace by faith alone - no works, and the other is declaring that there is no faith without works. However, you need to take these books into context. Paul is preaching to those whom feel that they have something through works to add to their salvation. James is preaching to those chrisitans who think they can just sit back and coast through life.

That is certainly one aspect of the difference between James and Paul. But I believe that Paul is preaching that one doesn't have to become Jewish first, not necessarily that Paul admonishes good deeds. Remember that Paul's biggest enemy, the Judaizers, thought pagan converts had to become circumcised and succumb to dietary rules of the Jews. Paul declared that this would make Jesus' Paschal Mystery null. Thus, it is not good deeds of love that Paul is attacking, but the idea that one must become a Jew first. Being a Jew was well and good for a time, but the Messianic Age ended the need to be a national Jew, following the customs and traditions of a Jew, before being considered a child of God.

As to good deeds, they only come as a result of Christ's abiding presence, so it is of no use to contrast faith and works. They must work hand in hand. Recall the importance Christ places on deeds of love, performed ONLY as a result of His abiding presence (see John's discussion of Jesus as the Vine). But is this any different then faith? Faith ALSO comes from Christ's presence within us. We don't generate faith within ourselves. We merely respond to God, whether it is the gift of faith or the gift of desiring to make our Eternal Father happy through loving our neighbors.

Regards

 

[stranger]

I am not surprised to see so much division here. Unfortunately, there are a lot of modern day "Pharisees" who condemn everyone who doesn't think exactly along their line of thought. . . Regards

An apt description - 'the modern day pharisee'. I believe love 'thy neighbour and thy enemies' is a check against becoming a modern day pharisee. Whenever these traits are missing from the writings of any man be they great reformers (or not) or erudite posters on this forum (or not) - it is evidence that they have eaten from the wrong tree - the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and not the tree of life. This I think is the food source of the modern day pharisee.

. . . Perhaps we can equate this to a Catholic given 5 talents and the Protestant 2. However, as in the parable, it depends on what each servant of our Lord does with the talents. The faithful Protestant who follows Scriptures and walks in the way of the Lord will certainly be called the "good and faithful servant" in heaven utilizing the "fewer talents" given. Now, some may disagree on whether Catholics have been given 5 talents, but the fact remains that the parable concetrates on what we do with what is given to us.

You have been generous to assign Protestants 2 talents for to be assigned one talent would be more than we can bear.

'And this my fear O' Lord You know,
that my talent is buried below,
and when I'm called to give account,
I have to dig my talent out'.

I have long suspected that the Lord has distributed His talents amongst the churches so that all the talents (available to individuals) are not in one basket.

blessings: stranger

 

[francisdesales]

An apt description - 'the modern day pharisee'. I believe love 'thy neighbour and thy enemies' is a check against becoming a modern day pharisee.

I think it is very difficult to escape that slavery of superiority that looks down on others. I believe this is something that takes some serious soul searching to even identify it as a problem. If it would help someone in this situation, one merely needs to consider WHOM Christ hung around with during His ministry...

You have been generous to assign Protestants 2 talents for to be assigned one talent would be more than we can bear.... I have long suspected that the Lord has distributed His talents amongst the churches so that all the talents (available to individuals) are not in one basket.

There are some uninformed "modern-day Pharisee" Catholics who believe that (God has blessed only Catholics...), unfortunately. However, the Spirit proves them wrong. His very presence among Protestants shows that the Spirit will blow where HE wills, not where Catholics "send" Him...

Now, note in the parable of the talents, God commends BOTH the guy with 5 and 2 talents equally by doubling them. I think this is something we can meditate on and discern that the Spirit will judge us based on what we are given. Thus, we certainly wouldn't expect an Indian in Peru during 1250 AD to worship Jesus Christ, but God has even given THAT man 1 "talent" (note, I 'assigned' pagans one talent earlier - the law written on one's heart!) - as those who love but do not know God's name still know that God is love...

Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God. 1 John 4:7

I don't think many "modern-day Pharisees" like such verses, but there they are, in our face. It is time people change their outlook towards others. Those who experience God, truly, have their worlds turned upside down. To put it simply:

He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life. 1 John 5:12.

God gives us all the ability to reach out to Him. Some, He gives more help. Perhaps being a Catholic means I need all the help I can get! But I honestly think that once in heaven, we will be rewarded based on what we do with what God gave us, not based on what building we go to on Sundays or what particular doctrines we believe. The Catholic Church ALREADY teaches that individual Protestants are mysteriously Catholic by the very virtue of their Baptism and the sharing of much of our faith. How about that! In 250 AD, the Pope was already saying that "heretics" peforming valid Baptism were still bringing members into the Church in some way...

Are the differences absolutely important towards salvation? I don't think so, in the absolute sense. Sure, our differences are important, but in the end, it is what we DO with this knowledge, not the mere knowing of doctrines that is important. I do not condone faulty concepts and ideas, proclaiming some sort of relativistic religion where everyone is OK. However, we should always keep the end view in mind as well as the here-and-now. For example, in the end, Marian veneration is not absolutely necessary for salvation, but we believe her intercessions HELP us to achieve eternal happiness. We Catholics need all the help we can get! And thus, I will again mention the 5 talents given. They aren't absolutely necessary (you can get to heaven with ONE talent).

God desires ALL men to be saved. To some, He offers more help. But He will also expect more from such people.

I hope this makes sense.

To all my brothers in Christ

 

[tim-from-pa]

I’m sorry, Tim. I didn’t mean to offend you but this idea that since Jesus gave us the ’free gift’ of life in him through repentance and the blood, we really shouldn’t have anything to do but enjoy it, is starting to really offend me. A gift can be a responsibility with some real work involved. A baby is a gift of God. We won’t use that as an illustration though, :wink: this time….

How much works could we do in a lifetime of even a hundred years, that would equal the gift of eternal life? What work could we possibly do that God needs us to do anyway? Are all the angels busy these days? He doesn’t need our works. Our works couldn’t buy us a drop of golden grasshopper spit in heaven. He allows us to do things for him. It is our great and awesome privilege to serve the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Don’t you agree?

p.s. Good post, fnerb. Couldn't have said it better myself, but probably more offensively :wink:

You did not offend me in the least. I was being funny. Those who know me in person oftentime witness my humorus outbursts.

One time I was asked if I'd play "Santa Claus"
I shouted out, "That's it! Diet starts tomorrow!" :-D

 

[jgredline]

Hi Folks...This thread was a classic example of how ONE person could completely destroy the harmony of a thread......I have deleted his silly circular arguments.....As I read through this thread, it was and is a really good read....AV I really enjoyed the way you presented this thread and followed up on folks questions and comments....So folks, I hope we can get this very important thread going again....God bless and post away....

Most “professing†Christians will tell you they believe that Christ died for their sins. Many of these do not believe such a thing for a moment – I’ll show you.

Most of “Christianity†believes they can lose their salvation or fall away. In other words they believe there is something that they can do or not d o to fall away. These people do not believe Christ died for their sins. Many believe there is something that they could do to lose it such as, live in sin, deny the faith, walk away, stay perpetually drunk, don’t repent or confess etc. or whatever. So, y doing or not doing the say you can lose it.

OK – Question – Are those things mentioned above sins? Of course they are. Did Christ die for those sins? By saying those things done “unrepentedly†or whatever will take away your salvation is saying Christ did not die for those sins – thus what you really do not believe that Christ died for your sins for if you really believed Christ died for all your sins then his death should cover those “falling away†sins also.

But since many of you here believe you can fall away then you do not believe Christ died for your sins and therefore you are still lost and in your sins because only a truly saved man can believe that Christ died for his sins for only God can reveal this to him.

2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Guess what folks – there are a lot of lost “christians†running around today.

Again - if you believe you can fall away or lose i t then you do not believe Christ died for your sins.

Either you believe Christ’s death at Calvary was sufficient for all your sins or not.

God bless 8-)

 

[Rick W]

Thank you jgredline.

The OSAS issue has always been a hot topic.

But,

Either you believe Christ’s death at Calvary was sufficient for all your sins or not.

God bless 8-)

This is a very profound statement. I too don't believe many professing christian realize the true import of such a claim.
Christ died for ALL our sins.
That's a simple statement of few words but the message is a bit too much for some. And I'm just as guilty as the next guy in not allowing that fact to be so deeply embedded into my heart that it becomes a matter of fact without any thought to keep it there.
All our sins... in the past, today and in the future. Forgiven, paid for in full, right now, today and tomorrow.

It's a hard one to grasp. Our humanness has a hard time with it.
First is the subject of once saved always saved as this thread demonstrates.
And there's others:
2) Then does that mean I cannot sin?
3) Does that mean I don't have to do any good works?
4) Does that mean I can go on doing what I was doing before I was saved?

I'm not seeking answers to those questions... nor discussion. I'm simply pointing out how our minds work to put condition/s upon that statement. To us it doesn't make sense, especially when we think about it. Yet, in our hearts it makes perfect sense when we don't think about it.

Yeah, it's a tough declaration to accept. But without acceptance there can be no salvation for that's exactly what the "good news", the gospel of Christ, is all about.

 

[Guest]

I have heard it said that Christ's death is SUFFICIENT for everyone, but it is EFFECIENT for those that believe.

In other words - Christ death was/is sufficient to cover all sins, but one must believe in the Lordship of Christ for it to be effecient in one's life.


*note - "I have heard it said" means that I am attempting to give credit to the person that first said it - though I do not remember where. This statement I totally agree with:

Christ's death is sufficient for all, but effecient to those that believe.

 

[Rick W]

Absolutely.


John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Note:
Reference from John 3:14

Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Numbers 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Numbers 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

 

[biblecatholic]

Most “professing†Christians will tell you they believe that Christ died for their sins. Many of these do not believe such a thing for a moment – I’ll show you.

Most of “Christianity†believes they can lose their salvation or fall away. In other words they believe there is something that they can do or not d o to fall away. These people do not believe Christ died for their sins. Many believe there is something that they could do to lose it such as, live in sin, deny the faith, walk away, stay perpetually drunk, don’t repent or confess etc. or whatever. So, y doing or not doing the say you can lose it.

let me first state that im a sinner, Gods grace saved me when i came into His family, and if i finish the race i will be saved. God does not stop offering salvation, never. can you walk away from salvation,YES. satan did it in heaven and we can do it here. would this fly with a wife, well i got the ring and there's nothing i can do to walk away from her. we must act like in a marriage. we can damage our relationship as i did when i was younger, and when i do fall(which can be often), 'cause everytime we fall we deny Him. we must grow the relationship, not make it like a contract ,'its a covenant


rom 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.




what did Jesus say to do to be saved ..
matt 19:17 Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."............so keeping the commandments is very important. when we mess up we confess our sins... if we dont ask for forgiveness we reject salvation.

2 Peter 2:20-21 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

1 cor 9:27 but i pummel my body and submit it, lest after preaching to others i myself should be disqualified

why is he worried if you cant lose it

ez 3:20-21Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

 

[AVBunyan]

1.Gods grace saved me when i came into His family, and if i finish the race i will be saved.

2. God does not stop offering salvation, never. can you walk away from salvation, YES. satan did it in heaven and we can do it here.

3. would this fly with a wife, well i got the ring and there's nothing i can do to walk away from her. we must act like in a marriage.

4. rom 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

5. what did Jesus say to do to be saved ..
matt 19:17 Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."............so keeping the commandments is very important. when we mess up we confess our sins... if we dont ask for forgiveness we reject salvation.

6. 1 cor 9:27 but i pummel my body and submit it, lest after preaching to others i myself should be disqualified - why is he worried if you cant lose it

7. ez 3:20-21Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die.

Hi – since you took the time to present the above I will seek to respond out of respect though I’ve dealt with these ideas and verses on this forum many times. Answering the verses you presented will not change your mind – only till you see, by God’s grace, that Christ died for all your sins will you understand what I will present here.

1. According to I Cor. 15:1-5 Christ died for all the saint’s sins so finishing the race does not have anything to do with justification only the practical outworking of one’s salvation. If you are counting on you finish the race or how you finish the race then Christ died in vain. Christ did not die so you can trust in your great race – this is saying that you believe his blood was not sufficient and that you can make Christ’s blood effective by your race..

2. The saint is secure in Christ’s body in heaven – can the saint jump out of Christ’s body and then jump out of heaven? Eph. 2:6

3. The ring is not the marriage – the joining of flesh makes the marriage…
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

4. This is dealing with the Gentiles as a nation vs. Israel as a nation – not the individual.

5. This is prior to Calvary before Christ even died for sins – won’t fit. Plus today commandments cannot justify….
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:

6. This is Paul being concerned about being cut off from his ministry….not from his salvation.

7. See #5

Do you believe Christ died for all your sins or just up till you excepted Christ and then it is up to your race?

God bless

 

[Diolectic]

Most “professing†Christians will tell you they believe that Christ died for their sins. Many of these do not believe such a thing for a moment – I’ll show you.

Most of “Christianity†believes they can lose their salvation or fall away. In other words they believe there is something that they can do or not d o to fall away. These people do not believe Christ died for their sins. Many believe there is something that they could do to lose it such as, live in sin, deny the faith, walk away, stay perpetually drunk, don’t repent or confess etc. or whatever. So, doing or not doing the say you can lose it.

I have a question for you:

Are we in a religion, or a relaitonship with Jesus the Christ our God?

If it is a relationship, it conclude that it is not based one person but both in the relationship. (it takes two to tango)
Just as a meriage, one can devorce another.
Just as a Father son relation, the son could disown his father.

If the son disowns his father, He will not take what the Father has for an inheritance.
They might be still relatited by "law" but in relationship they are not.

Therefore, one can walk away or deny the faith just as the son deny the father and walk away frm him.
If not, why couldn't one walk away or deny?

 

[Guest]

I have a question for you:

Are we in a religion, or a relaitonship with Jesus the Christ our God?

If it is a relationship, it conclude that it is not based one person but both in the relationship. (it takes two to tango)
Just as a meriage, one can devorce another.
Just as a Father son relation, the son could disown his father.

If the son disowns his father, He will not take what the Father has for an inheritance.
They might be still relatited by "law" but in relationship they are not.

Therefore, one can walk away or deny the faith just as the son deny the father and walk away frm him.
If not, why couldn't one walk away or deny?

If I may answer quickly - as I am away from home.

I believe it is best understood as a relationship, but with the notion of a covenant. Some covenants are made between equal parties, others are not. In our relationship, covenant, with God - it is God who could do the requiring - but rather it is He who has PROVIDED.

I would also ask - knowing that God has provided EVERYTHING needed to statisfy the requirements of the covenant - why would someone want to leave?

And just as a son might leave the father for a time, our Heavenly Father waits to welcome us back. And does what is needed to draw us back.

 

[Diolectic]

If I may answer quickly - as I am away from home.

I believe it is best understood as a relationship, but with the notion of a covenant. Some covenants are made between equal parties, others are not. In our relationship, covenant, with God - it is God who could do the requiring - but rather it is He who has PROVIDED.

True, however, this is an either or situation.
Either repent and turn back, or stay in sin and cause His anger to fall upon the son.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jer 3:12-12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.

There is no guaranty that the one being drawn back will come back.

I would also ask - knowing that God has provided EVERYTHING needed to statisfy the requirements of the covenant - why would someone want to leave?

Because of ignorance of the word of God.

 

[Heidi]

AV-

I'm still really torn on the OSAS thought. I was wondering what you or possibly solo (whom both adamantly preach it) have to say about these verses:

Luke 8:13 -
13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Galatians 5:4 -
4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

(Note: I read that passage as being someone whom is trying to earn their way to heaven which is not possible. I just post it here as it does seem to show biblically that it is possible to fall from grace)

1 Timothy 1:19 -
19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.

(I would equate "shipwrecked" ones faith as to losing it.)

1 Corinthians 10:12 -
12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!

On the flip side, I take great comfort in passages such as:
John 10:27-28
1 John 2:2
Isaiah 40: 28-31

Thanks!

(Note: I'm still a pretty large newbie when it comes to theology, so please be gentle)

I have a question for you: If someone rescues you from a burning fire, what is your response to him? And how can you still be in that burning fire if someone took you out of it? :o You are either saved from that fire or your rescuer left you to burn. Or don't you believe that Jesus rescued you from the fire of hell? If you don't then you are not saved. If you do, then you are saved. It's that simple.

 

[AVBunyan]

There is no guaranty that the one being drawn back will come back. Because of ignorance of the word of God.

Why are you using an OT illustration to “illustrate†a NT, age of grace doctrine? – they do not mix.

Would you be so kind to explain this more?
I understand that “walking away from God†is sin.

So then, if Christ died for all your sins then did Christ’s death cover your “walking away†also or was Christ’s blood not sufficient enough for your “walking away�

Please give the above statement some serious consideration please.

The purpose here is to point folks to what justification really is. Once this is settled then this damnable, man-made (or devil-made), teaching that one can lose their salvation can go away forever!

God bless

 

[Diolectic]

I have a question for you: If someone rescues you from a burning fire, what is your response to him? And how can you still be in that burning fire if someone took you out of it? :o You are either saved from that fire or your rescuer left you to burn. Or don't you believe that Jesus rescued you from the fire of hell? If you don't then you are not saved. If you do, then you are saved. It's that simple.

The Children of Israel wanted to go back to Egipt and they would have if they could have.
If you tell some one that if they ware a parachute on a plane will improove theire flight unknowing that the plane will crash with out notice, they might put it on untill they find that the parachute does not improove theire flight and is uncomfotable, they will take it off.

Why are you using an OT illustration to “illustrate†a NT, age of grace doctrine? – they do not mix.

Did GOD change?
The old Testement is the New conceiled.
The Old Testement is all the Apostles had to read and make doctrin from.
One can not and should not throw the Old testement out.

Would you be so kind to explain this more?
I understand that “walking away from God†is sin.

So then, if Christ died for all your sins then did Christ’s death cover your “walking away†also or was Christ’s blood not sufficient enough for your “walking away�

Lets just say that someone lost faith in God because of the world's lies (many christian kids who go to colledg do this) So, now they don't belive in God any more.
Don't say that they were never saved, becaus they bore fruit and had all the requirements needed for salvation.

In light of this Scripture:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him
Tell me this;
Did Christ’s death cover some one who has “no faith†also or was Christ’ blood not sufficient enough for some one who has “no faith�

 

[AVBunyan]

Tell me this; Did Christ’s death cover some one who has “no faith†also or was Christ’s blood not sufficient enough for some one who has “no faith�

Diolectic - let's stick with what happed at salvation - When one is salved 39 different and miraculous things happened:
In order for one to lose his salvation then all you have to do is just...Undo all that God did at your salvation.
Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.
1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7
2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24
3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13
4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15
5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6
6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11
7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30
8) Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13
9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30
10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3
11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12
12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6
13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1
14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27
15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30
And a few more that I failed to present here.

Please leave the "what if" scenarios alone and concentrate on the actual work of justification for a while.

Israel is not a doctrinal example of a "what if" scenario.

A person that has no faith never had the faith that saves. The faith that saves is Christ's faith:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

It is not your faith that justifies - it is Christ's faith.

God bless

 

[jgredline]

AV
I have read allot of stuff over the years, but this post of yours is one of the best things I have read in a long time...Its a keeper, going into the back of my bible....Excellent..... 8-)

 

[AVBunyan]

AV
I have read allot of stuff over the years, but this post of yours is one of the best things I have read in a long time...Its a keeper, going into the back of my bible....Excellent..... 8-)

Thanks JG - it was actually just part of a longer post - I'll PM you the whole article - not much longer anyway.

Diolectic - the issue is not whether or not a saint can lose it - Get the doctrine of justification settled and what God did for you at Calvary and the issue of losing it will no longer be an issue.

God bless