So, you believe Christ died for your sins, really???

[francisdesales]

In order for one to lose his salvation then all you have to do is just...Undo all that God did at your salvation.
Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.
1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7
2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24
3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13
4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15
5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6
6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11
7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30
8) Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13
9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30
10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3
11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12
12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6
13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1
14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27
15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30
And a few more that I failed to present here.

The question is not whether God will "un-" whatever. The question is whether WE will.

Old Testament:

Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die. Ez 18:23-24

New Testament:

For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

The question is not whether God will "un-" whatever. The question is whether WE will.

Then I respectfully challenge you to try and undo what God hath done. Do you think by your own human power can undo such mighty works? :o

Go ahead and try to separate yourself from Christ's body: Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
And then try to jump out of heaven - Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

God bless

 

[Diolectic]

Diolectic - let's stick with what happed at salvation - When one is saved 39 different and miraculous things happened:
In order for one to lose his salvation then all you have to do is just...Undo all that God did at your salvation.
Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.
1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7
2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24
3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13
4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15
5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6
6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11
7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30
8) Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13
9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30
10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3
11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12
12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6
13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1
14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27
15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30
And a few more that I failed to present here.

Do you know what deception is?

All one needs to do is become as one not saved by not believing in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross and rejecting His resurrection.
If one becomes decieved by lies, one will not recieve all that you counted out.
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to decieve, if possible, even the elect.

If it is not possible, the warning would not be there, so it is posible.

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

A person that has no faith never had the faith that saves. The faith that saves is Christ's faith:

What is faith that saves but believing.
If one believes in something that trumps ones belief in Christs, what then?

Furthermore, Jesus can not have faith:
Jesus had empirical knowledge.

Faith is a kind of knowlege from circumstantial evidence.
empirical knowledge is conclusive evidence or substantial evidence or fact derived from experience.

Example:
I have faith in Christ, because I never realy saw Him physicaly(substantial evidence), but I have circumstantial evidence from His word and witnesses the Apostles.

Jesus would/does not have faith at all but He had perfect knowlege(empirical knowledge, conclusive evidence or substantial evidence) of GOD or Jesus didn't have circumstantial evidence, but actual knowlege of His Father.

Therefore one can not have Christ's faith, one must have his own.

Diolectic - the issue is not whether or not a saint can lose it - Get the doctrine of justification settled and what God did for you at Calvary and the issue of losing it will no longer be an issue.

Please read my post "The Law"
You will find that I do understand the doctrine of justification.

Furthermore, it's not about losing it, but leaving it.
If one can not choose to leave, He is a prisoner taken captive against his will, or a robot with no will.
If God does not give one freedom to leave, it is like me not giveing my wife the choice to stay with me.
That is not love but coercion.

 

[jgredline]

:roll: ....

I will try and keep my post short so bare with me....

If you are are ''Truly'' Born Again, you ''Will'' Persevere to the End.....
John 6:38-40
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

Here Jesus says that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
He says that he will raise that person up at the last day, which, in this context of believing in the Son and having eternal life, clearly means that Jesus will raise that person up to eternal life with him (not just raise him up to be judged and condemned)....
Everyone who truly believes in Christ will remain a Christian up to the day of final resurrection into the blessings of life in the presence of God. Another thing....., this text emphasizes that Jesus does the will of the Father, which is that he should ''lose nothing of all that he has given me'' ...So if you belong to Jesus, he will not Loose you......


John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

This is one of the clearest statements in the Bible that one who believes in Jesus for salvation will never be lost. Believers sin and stumble, but Jesus as the perfect Shepherd loses none of His flock


Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

''Condemnation'' is the ''opposite of Justification''...Simply put...If your not condemned then guess what????/You are Justified......You are one or the other...There is no middle ground



Ok....Now here is where there is confusion in reformed theology and I will address it now....I will begin it with a statement and please pay close attention....Only Those Who Persevere to the End Have Been Truly Born Again...Now there is a big misconception on OSAS....The misconception is this...There are many who profess to be born again and even preach OSAS but live like Hell...because after all, they are Saved....''Anyone'' with this mentality is not saved......I know I have been Justified and am clothed in Jesus Righteousness, but this is not an E ticket to sin...
Lets look at

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Folks who had believed in Him indicates that some paid attention to Jesus’ It is possible to ''believe'' without being born again. So by continuing to run the race in the truth of the Gospel is the sign of a true born again believer...We must each run our ''own'' race.... If one really grasps the truth of the Gospel, one would find salvation and this truth will set one free...

''Anybody'' who has been born again (justified) will persevere to the end...
''Anyone'' who says they choose to give back their salvation, has nothing to give back, because they were never justified to begin with....Nobody who is a born again believer will trade eternal life for eternal torment....Think about it.....Would a true believer give up eternity with all mighty God who is Good and Loves us beyond measure to spend eternity in Torment with Satan who hates him and wants to destroy him???? Of course not.............

 

[Diolectic]

:roll: ...If you are are ''Truly'' Born Again, you ''Will'' Persevere to the End.....

Do you think those wackos on TBN who speek lies will be preserved to the end?

 

[jgredline]

Do you think those wackos on TBN who speek lies will be preserved to the end?

Since you asked...NO...I believe many of those will hear the words..''I never knew you''.....I will also say that this quote is not limited to TBN folks...There will be people of ''every'' denomination and through out the world that will hear the words, I never knew you....No group has a monopoly on Salvation....You are either a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN or your NOT.....

 

[Heidi]

Do you think those wackos on TBN who speek lies will be preserved to the end?

So do you not believe Philippians 2:13 "For it is God who works in you to will and act according to his good purpose"? :o

So sorry, but as John says in 1 John 5;18, "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe and the evil one cannot harm him." That means when we do sin, the Holy Spirit convicts us and makes it so unpleasant that we come to repentance.

But Paul also tells us that even if we don't seek repentance that we will merely escape through the flames. So put every passage together and you get Romans 8:1, "For there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Jesus".

 

[Diolectic]

You have no idea what deception is.
Not that you are decieved, but that one may be decieved to "another gospel"(2Corinth 11:4, Gal 1:6-7)

 

[golfjack]

reply

How does a reformed thelogian interpret the following verses: Hebrews 10:26-29? No doubt, Paul is talking to true born again believers here. It maybe for Jewish believers of that day, but they aren't any more savved as people are today.

By the way Javier, I reject the idea that the message of the cross is only meant for the elect. It is meant for everyone who accepts this message. One can either accept Christ or Reject Him. This is called free will. Who are these elect anyway? God has chosen the Jews. We chose God. Predestination is about the Father's plan of salvation for mankind. It is not about individual predestination as Calvinist thelogy believes.

Therefore, I do reject what I call watered down Calvanism. That is one cannot lose their salvation. But my caveat would be I don't believe this happens very much, but it is possible as scripture teaches.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Guest]

Who are the elect?

Very simple answer: those who believe.

Who is to say it is a small number, a middle number, or a huge number? We do not know 'how many' - nor do we need to worry about the number - we should be about the Master's business - sharing the Good News through words and actions.

It is through this that God will open the hearts of those who will believe.

 

[biblecatholic]

Re: reply

Therefore, I do reject what I call watered down Calvanism. That is one cannot lose their salvation. But my caveat would be I don't believe this happens very much, but it is possible as scripture teaches May God bless, Golfjack

golf jack i wanted to chime in on your comment since we are in agreement on this issue. 1 outa 10, its a start. now im sure the details might be different

 

[AVBunyan]

Do you think those wackos on TBN who speek lies will be preserved to the end?

I believe those folks on TBN, for the most past, are as lost as a goose in a snow storm. I would walk right past most of those folks looking for a Christian.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: reply

How does a reformed thelogian interpret the following verses: Hebrews 10:26-29? May God bless, Golfjack

1. These folks are Hebrews and evidence they are in the body of Christ.

2. The context of Hebrews is Israel seeking their rest in the promised earthly kingdom (kingdom of heaven). They are seeking rest not salvation. If they do not continue or fall away they lose their rest and rewards (not salvation).
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Please keep Hebrews seeking to get into an earthly kingdom separate from church-age saints who are already sealed in the body of Christ in a heaveny kingdom.

God bless

 

[Diolectic]

I believe those folks on TBN, for the most past, are as lost as a goose in a snow storm. I would walk right past most of those folks looking for a Christian.

Don't think that they started of on the wrong foot.
i've herd Kenneth Copplands testemony and it is genuine, however, He got off course and now he is a heritic with damnable doctrins leading true christians to the place he is going.
These true christians, if they adopt his doctine fully, will cease to be follower of Christ.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. i've herd Kenneth Copplands testemony and it is genuine, however,
2. These true christians, if they adopt his doctine fully, will cease to be follower of Christ.

1. Until I hear his testimony then I count this man lost - and even if his testimony "sounds good" he demonstrates he does not know the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5.

2. A truly saved man can get off trackand still be saved but it will create havoc in his life and others down here.

God bless

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

By the way Javier, I reject the idea that the message of the cross is only meant for the elect. It is meant for everyone who accepts this message. One can either accept Christ or Reject Him. This is called free will. Who are these elect anyway?

May God bless, Golfjack

Jack
I believe you misunderstood what I was saying....If you look at my question, I was basically making a statement to BibleCatholic because ''to me'' he seems to be preaching Universal Salvation on one hand and then on the other, he is preaching that one can loose his salvation....I absolutely agree with what you said here 100%...This has always been my view....

Alone voice put it nicely

Who are the elect?

Very simple answer: those who believe.

Who is to say it is a small number, a middle number, or a huge number? We do not know 'how many' - nor do we need to worry about the number - we should be about the Master's business - sharing the Good News through words and actions.

It is through this that God will open the hearts of those who will believe.

The elect is anybody who chooses to be one of the elect.....God in his foreknowledge knew who would accept his son as Lord and Saviour....

There is no excuse for anyone not be a part of the elect.....oh, some will say that God has already chosen so why should I be a follower if God did not choose me....yet this person still has a choice while he is breathing....

 

[GMS]

Re: reply

jgredline states:

"The elect is anybody who chooses to be one of the elect.....God in his foreknowledge knew who would accept his son as Lord and Saviour...."

If we are all dead in our sins until God makes us alive (Ephesians 2:1-9) what does He see in man in regards to foreknowledge prior to regeneration?
GMS

 

[biblecatholic]

Re: reply

jgredline
just wanted to comment on salvation. "i believe" if someone who didn't have an opportunity to know Christ within certain cirmstances mercy may be granted i dont think it is commonplace though.im not sure if this is what the catholic church teaches.im just saying that its possible if Christ wants to. and i think He does sometimes. according to the way that protestantism looks at scripture with thousands of "contradictory lenses" interpreting scripture.this view wouldnt be wrong since i pray to the Holy Spirit DAILY and every time before i read the scriptures. since i am born again. and since i am in love with the whole of the Most Holy Trinity

christians can not enter heaven if they dont forgive others(we are held to the same standard we place on others) if they are living in "deadly sin" at the moment of their death, dont confess their sins and repent(if you dont ask for forgiveness that means you didnt accept it)

 

[Diolectic]

1. Until I hear his testimony then I count this man lost - and even if his testimony "sounds good" he demonstrates he does not know the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5.

2. A truly saved man can get off track and still be saved but it will create havoc in his life and others down here.

1. God bless

I'm not saying that he is not lost, I am saying that he wasn't to begin with because he got into damnable herasy.

2. True, however, there is a point where he is too far off track, as to believe lies that are contrary to salvation.

 

[Guest]

Re: reply

according to the way that protestantism looks at scripture with thousands of "contradictory lenses" interpreting scripture.

What does this mean?

since i am born again.

How do you know? Please do not take this question to mean that I am questioning your salvation. That is not my point - rather, I just want to know how you know you are 'born again'

christians can not enter heaven if they dont forgive others(we are held to the same standard we place on others) if they are living in "deadly sin" at the moment of their death, dont confess their sins and repent(if you dont ask for forgiveness that means you didnt accept it)

Is Christ's sacrifice able to cover your/our past, present and future sins?