(Some) OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

[Stan1953]

You forgot to address my questions dialogue is good.
Judas being chosen in the 12 wasn't an indication of his faith or salvic position. For instance do you suggest the people who did great things in Jesus name and cry "Lord Lord" in the last day were true believers ?
We're also shown that people who say they follow Jesus doesn't necessarily indicate that they're true believers when they cry Lord Lord as Jesus said he never knew them don't you think ?

Sorry...I'm fielding a few posts.

Nor is it a denial thereof. Jesus as God knows, I don't, and as the scriptures do not say Judas NEVER believed and as he killed himself out of guilt, I prefer to believe he did.

You are citing prophetic scripture that will only be seen when Jesus returns. Then we will know as we have been known.

 

[DRS81]

That is imposing your opinion on scripture when that is NOT indicated, AND, the word 'impossible', is used to indicate one cannot renew themselves to repentance. You seem to be asserting dogmatic opinion rather than exegetical understanding?
Part of debate is to not just deny but to refute.

I'm going to give you a really good outline of Hebrews 6:4-6 tonight. I'm asking for your patience.

 

[Stan1953]

Abandoning a principle isn't the same as abandoning faith. There are many people who designate themselves as Christian who simply aren't faithful.

Edited reba Apostasy is defined as Reba showed, regardless of what faith. Let's not equivocate about definitions when they are as clear as they need to be.
If you don't accept apostasy as the correct word, then what is Heb 6 referring to as "falling away" from, or what is Heb 10 referring to "shrinking back" from?

 

[Stan1953]

I'm going to give you a really good outline of Hebrews 6:4-6 tonight. I'm asking for your patience.

I think it would be better for you to address my questions that I have already asked, rather than saying the same thing over and over again. I'm not a newbie or rookie DRS81...I have been studying the scriptures for over 43 years.

 

[DRS81]

I think it would be better for you to address my questions that I have already asked, rather than saying the same thing over and over again. I'm not a newbie or rookie DRS81...I have been studying the scriptures for over 43 years.

Do you understand what patience is brother.

 

[ezrider]

I have never really given much thought to or have ever really concerned myself with the OSAS debate, because once you are led of the Spirit and you follow the Spirit by Faith, the idea of salvation is just no longer any great concern. I guess the first question I would ask is what does one mean when they say once saved? From whence and for whom is this salvation you fear you might loose? When I think of the act of salvation, I think of the crucifixion and he who taketh away the sins of the world.

Is it not our old nature, the man of flesh who was condemned to death by sin under the law, that was in need of salvation? But, if we are indeed a new creation in Christ that lives after the Spirit, then why would you still require salvation, or be in fear of loosing it. If we are a new creation in Christ after his Spirit, then we walk in Faith under Grace; And if we be under his Grace, why the need for salvation?

I see salvation as pertaining to our old nature, and as we are in Christ, then we through Christ have become dead to our old nature (Rom 6). This work has been done and cannot be undone, because the new covenant has already been confirmed in the blood of Christ. The Lord said in that day, that he would forgive their iniquities and would remember their sins no more (Jer 31:34). If I am a new creation in Christ, then what further salvation is needed for one who lives by Faith under Grace?

 

[agua.]

Sorry...I'm fielding a few posts.

Nor is it a denial thereof. Jesus as God knows, I don't, and as the scriptures do not say Judas NEVER believed and as he killed himself out of guilt, I prefer to believe he did.

You are citing prophetic scripture that will only be seen when Jesus returns. Then we will know as we have been known.

I don't get what you mean by " Nor is denial thereof " ? Jesus said there will be people who think they're believers but aren't. Judas was said to be a devil I'm not sure how we can assume he was ever anything else.

The point is profession or being in ministry doesn't indicate salvic position.

(Edited) Apostasy is defined as Reba showed, regardless of what faith. Let's not equivocate about definitions when they are as clear as they need to be.
If you don't accept apostasy as the correct word, then what is Heb 6 referring to as "falling away" from, or what is Heb 10 referring to "shrinking back" from?

(Edited. Was a reply to a section of a post that was removed. Obadiah.) Reba showed that apostasy was leaving a profession which doesn't indicate the faith of the person apostatizing. The people falling away can be likened to the ones you showed earlier in Luke 8:13.14 in that that were never true believers as shown in Luke 8:15. They were leaving a profession not true faith.

 

[Stan1953]

Do you understand what patience is brother.

Yep.

 

[Stan1953]

I don't get what you mean by " Nor is denial thereof " ? Jesus said there will be people who think they're believers but aren't. Judas was said to be a devil I'm not sure how we can assume he was ever anything else.
The point is profession or being in ministry doesn't indicate salvic position.

The scriptures does not deny nor confirm either position re salvation of the apostles. Jesus is the one who will judge who is and isn't, not us. Judas was a traitor, which means he at one time was a believer.

I don't question the bibles inspiration but I do question your interpretation of it. Stick with the topic eh. Reba showed that apostasy was leaving a profession which doesn't indicate the faith of the person apostatizing. The people falling away can be likened to the ones you showed earlier in Luke 8:13.14 in that that were never true believers as shown in Luke 8:15. They were leaving a profession not true faith.

I went off topic?
Yes Reba did show the definition of Apostate. She also asked, "How can one abandon or desert turncoat if they never were? "
Heb 6 is talking about real faith, actual Christians, and the "falling away there from" You still haven't answered what they fell away from if it wasn't real. Why would they be warned? Luke 8:12 are the only ones that don't believe and get saved, all the others do with varying degrees of success for the reasons given by Jesus.
Rom 10:9-10
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

According to Paul, profession follows belief, and both are required for salvation. Again no place in the NT is a believer referred to as a TRUE believer, they just are. Assuming a person who falls away never really believed, when Luke 8:13 shows they did really believe.

 

[Stan1953]

I have never really given much thought to or have ever really concerned myself with the OSAS debate, because once you are led of the Spirit and you follow the Spirit by Faith, the idea of salvation is just no longer any great concern. I guess the first question I would ask is what does one mean when they say once saved? From whence and for whom is this salvation you fear you might loose? When I think of the act of salvation, I think of the crucifixion and he who taketh away the sins of the world.

Is it not our old nature, the man of flesh who was condemned to death by sin under the law, that was in need of salvation? But, if we are indeed a new creation in Christ that lives after the Spirit, then why would you still require salvation, or be in fear of loosing it. If we are a new creation in Christ after his Spirit, then we walk in Faith under Grace; And if we be under his Grace, why the need for salvation?

I see salvation as pertaining to our old nature, and as we are in Christ, then we through Christ have become dead to our old nature (Rom 6). This work has been done and cannot be undone, because the new covenant has already been confirmed in the blood of Christ. The Lord said in that day, that he would forgive their iniquities and would remember their sins no more (Jer 31:34). If I am a new creation in Christ, then what further salvation is needed for one who lives by Faith under Grace?

I would like to address this post, but it is all off topic so I'll leave it alone.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I have never really given much thought to or have ever really concerned myself with the OSAS debate, because once you are led of the Spirit and you follow the Spirit by Faith, the idea of salvation is just no longer any great concern. I guess the first question I would ask is what does one mean when they say once saved? From whence and for whom is this salvation you fear you might loose? When I think of the act of salvation, I think of the crucifixion and he who taketh away the sins of the world.

Is it not our old nature, the man of flesh who was condemned to death by sin under the law, that was in need of salvation? But, if we are indeed a new creation in Christ that lives after the Spirit, then why would you still require salvation, or be in fear of loosing it. If we are a new creation in Christ after his Spirit, then we walk in Faith under Grace; And if we be under his Grace, why the need for salvation?

I see salvation as pertaining to our old nature, and as we are in Christ, then we through Christ have become dead to our old nature (Rom 6). This work has been done and cannot be undone, because the new covenant has already been confirmed in the blood of Christ. The Lord said in that day, that he would forgive their iniquities and would remember their sins no more (Jer 31:34). If I am a new creation in Christ, then what further salvation is needed for one who lives by Faith under Grace?

I understand you.
This is an OSAS stance as well.
But further salvation in a different sense is still needed.
Philippians 2:12 NIV
...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling...

Within our salvation is the desire to please God in every way, and this is a work of God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Within the OSAS camp, I see the body of believers continually building up the body of Christ in the same way Paul wrote to the churches.
But those on the other side, all I see is frightful fear and condemnation.

Someone tell me if I'm wrong.

 

[agua.]

The scriptures does not deny nor confirm either position re salvation of the apostles. Jesus is the one who will judge who is and isn't, not us. Judas was a traitor, which means he at one time was a believer.

Jesus said he was a devil not a traitor. A traitor is someone who goes against his own kind yet Judas did what his kind do. Betray the opposition.

(Removed, refers to a removed section of a post. Obadiah)

Yes Reba did show the definition of Apostate. She also asked, "How can one abandon or desert turncoat if they never were? "
Heb 6 is talking about real faith, actual Christians, and the "falling away there from" You still haven't answered what they fell away from if it wasn't real. Why would they be warned? Luke 8:12 are the only ones that don't believe and get saved, all the others do with varying degrees of success for the reasons given by Jesus.
Rom 10:9-10
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

According to Paul, profession follows belief, and both are required for salvation. Again no place in the NT is a believer referred to as a TRUE believer, they just are. Assuming a person who falls away never really believed, when Luke 8:13 shows they did really believe.

You must also "believe with your heart" to be saved and this is something you are missing. A person can easily confess with their mouth and yet not believe with their heart which is why they were never true believers.

Mat_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

James showed us that believing isn't enough because even devils believe etc. We are shown that there is a difference between a confessed believer and a true believer in many places in scripture.The Jews were all professed believers and yet only the remnant of true believers are saved.

Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We see the example of Judas along with those who left us because they were never one of us to show how a professed believer is not necessarily a true believer.

1Jn 2:19 KJV They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Profession does follow belief but profession doesn't always indicate believe as we can see from the Israelite and Judas. etc

 

[John Zain]

Hi John,
OSAS / Eternal Security, is one of the five points of Calvinism, and is taught within it by the improper exegesis of scripture.
The fact is it is intrinsically linked to the entire TULIP doctrine so debating this aspect inevitably leads to the other four points.
Heb 6:4-6 and 10:38-39 demonstrates OSAS is not correct, as does 2 Thess 2:3.
What is important to note is that supporters of OSAS will equivocate on the word apostasy, to connote LOSE. We don't LOSE our salvation, but we can walk away from it as many have done, including one of the biggest evangelists that originally partnered with Billy Graham in the early days of their ministry. After experiencing Heb 6:4-6, he(Charles Templeton) walked away in a state of apostasy. Jesus said we will inherit eternal life IF we endure. That is up to us. If we give up there is no security of salvation, just certainty of eternal punishment.

A neat little trinity ... Jethro Bodine, you, and I ... aren't we?

 

[John Zain]

Sure, if you see who these people are in Heb 6 & 10, they were indeed Christians.
You can't fall away and shrink back from something if you never actually attained it.
The book is directed at believers.
You may also want to refer to Luke 8:11-15

Yes, the Whole Book of Scripture!

Much of it concerns warning believers to endure until the end, and many other little items
... so that they might be wise enough to maintain their free gift of grace-faith ...
righteousness = eternal life!
Note: a gift may easily be thrown away, discarded, rejected, etc.

The book is directed at believers because it would be a waste of time to direct it anyone else!
God chooses who will believe, then warns them to really believe, and to continue believing ... or else!
Yes, sincere and obedient co-operation with God is a requirement of believers!

 

[agua.]

A neat little trinity ... Jethro Bodine, you, and I ... aren't we?

E.G. no BAC will be saved who has unforgiveness, OR any unrepented-of habitual sin in his life.

1Co 5:4-5 KJV In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[John Zain]

... Jesus tells us that plenty will claim to be but that claim can only be substantiated and demonstrated by their lifestyle. Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)

In this passage, Jesus is clearly saying that ...
ONLY those who do Father God's will shall enter the kingdom of heaven, i.e. heaven.

Does anyone here really think this means merely accepting God's free gift of grace-faith,
and not rebelling against this great blessing?

 

[Stan1953]

Jesus said he was a devil not a traitor. A traitor is someone who goes against his own kind yet Judas did what his kind do. Betray the opposition.

Was Jesus being literal or metaphorical? Paul used the same Greek word in 1 Tim 3:11 & 2 Tim 3:3, which is translated slanderer/slanderous, and in Tit 2:3 which is also slanderer.
Teknia.com shows it as;
Definition:
slanderer, 1 Tim. 3:11; 2 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 2:3; a treacherous informer, traitor, Jn. 6:70; ὁ διάβολος, the devil

I feel very comfortable with traitor.

(Edited, response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

You must also "believe with your heart" to be saved and this is something you are missing. A person can easily confess with their mouth and yet not believe with their heart which is why they were never true believers.

Yep, which Paul said in Rom 10

James showed us that believing isn't enough because even devils believe etc. We are shown that there is a difference between a confessed believer and a true believer in many places in scripture. The Jews were all professed believers and yet only the remnant of true believers are saved.

James is not talking about salvation, but about a productive walk in Christ. He was addressing a belief that works was NOT required and his position was that they may not be required but they show where you are in your walk of faith. They show maturity which is what was missing from those in Luke 8:14. The Jews were not ALL believers, and Paul stated in Rom 11 it was the reason Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree. Aside from the prophetic verses you've already shown, where are we shown many times in scripture confessed or true believers?

Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
We see the example of Judas along with those who left us because they were never one of us to show how a professed believer is not necessarily a true believer.

Yes, which is what the OT also taught. Paul is referring to the law vs faith here. Not really applicable to what we are discussing.

1Jn 2:19 KJV They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Profession does follow belief but profession doesn't always indicate believe as we can see from the Israelite and Judas. etc

I still don't see how this applies to this discussion. John knew what he knew from the spirit of God and because those men went against his teaching. The point that Paul makes in Rom 10:9-10 is that belief and confession go hand in hand. Like love and marriage...you can't have one without the other.

 

[Stan1953]

A neat little trinity ... Jethro Bodine, you, and I ... aren't we?

Sorry you've lost me.

 

[agua.]

Was Jesus being literal or metaphorical? Paul used the same Greek word in 1 Tim 3:11 & 2 Tim 3:3, which is translated slanderer/slanderous, and in Tit 2:3 which is also slanderer.
Teknia.com shows it as;
Definition:
slanderer, 1 Tim. 3:11; 2 Tim. 3:3; Tit. 2:3; a treacherous informer, traitor, Jn. 6:70; ὁ διάβολος, the devil

I feel very comfortable with traitor.

Yes Jesus was being metaphorical because devil is either satan or one of his minions. Jesus said though that He chose Judas yet he was a devil ( slanderer or whatever other negative connotation ). We also see that Judas being true to this was a thief and a betrayer of Jesus.

You feel comfortable with traitor because it suits your premise but Jesus said he chose Judas knowing He was a devil. Also prophecy shows Judas was always going to be this so I'm not sure how you can suggest he was ever a true believer.

Well that would be your take on it, but I asked you because your keep equivocating on 'apostate', when Heb 6 and 10 say 'fall away' and 'shrink back'. I'm trying to show this does not mean losing salvation, but falling into apostasy. If you are not going to agree with the word then explain the words that are used. The bottom line is fully believing Christians fall away, and Luke warns them about this.

You're equivocating what a christian is. Why do you suggest fall away or shrink back infers a change of faith ? Do you suggest the people who cry Lord Lord at the last day were ever Christian ?

Luke tells us the process people may go through in becoming a Christian. There's no middle ground here you're either Luke 8:13,14 and unsaved or Luke 8:15 and saved. I think you confuse someone who says or thinks they're christian with a true believer.

James is not talking about salvation, but about a productive walk in Christ. He was addressing a belief that works was NOT required and his position was that they may not be required but they show where you are in your walk of faith. They show maturity which is what was missing from those in Luke 8:14. The Jews were not ALL believers, and Paul stated in Rom 11 it was the reason Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree. Aside from the prophetic verses you've already shown, where are we shown many times in scripture confessed or true believers?

I didn't say all Jews were believers but they all were professed believers in the same way all Christians are professed believers but not true believers. I'm not sure why you don't see that a Jew was only a true believer if they were faithful ie. do you agree all Jews believed in Yahweh ?

Yes, which is what the OT also taught. Paul is referring to the law vs faith here. Not really applicable to what we are discussing.

It's directly related to the issue of true belief and shows that a true Jew ( believer ) is one who believes with the heart/inwardly. The same as a professing Christian isn't necessarily a true believer and is shown when Jesus denies ever knowing some.

I still don't see how this applies to this discussion. John knew what he knew from the spirit of God and because those men went against his teaching. The point that Paul makes in Rom 10:9-10 is that belief and confession go hand in hand. Like love and marriage...you can't have one without the other.

John was saying that the people who left were once amid them but they were never really part of them. I agree you can't have true faith without profession but you seem to be suggesting that professing always implies true faith. Is this what you're suggesting ? This doesn't fit with Jesus telling people who confess His name that he never knew them. Are you suggesting every professed Christian today is a true believer and will be saved ?