Soul Sleep yes or no?

[tdidymas]

I’ve just joined this forum. Will I be banned for offering counter-points?

I believe this forum is a debate forum. It's under "Christian Discussion."

 

[hawkman]

I’ve just joined this forum. Will I be banned for offering counter-points?

Follow the terms of service you should be fine .

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[Consecrated Life]

Tks for your persistent replies. But I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't change the opinions of those on the other side of the debate (at least not openly). I've seen many thousands of posts in forums like this, and I've seen only one person actually say they've changed their opinion (that I can remember). If

I think I have seen this "soul sleep" issue gone over before, but I never so stridently.
I still cannot get my head around the concept of this being something so important.
It is almost as if there were no "soul sleep" available for these people then they don't want to see Jesus at all ?
For what reason is a sleep delay is so vitally important I just don't get ?
It does not even make any sense .
That we, at our very core , we are spirits just as God is a Spirit is an undeniable fact.
Spirits confined, restrained & held down by our flesh.
Decaying flesh that requires food, water, sleep.
All things that constrain and confine the spirit.
Dismiss the body and the spirit is subject to none of it .
Does a spirit have to be laying down in order to sleep, or can a spirit sleep comfortably in a seated position? lol
If they are side sleepers do most spirits prefer to sleep on their left or their right side ?

Jhn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

 

[tdidymas]

I think I have seen this "soul sleep" issue gone over before, but I never so stridently.
I still cannot get my head around the concept of this being something so important.
It is almost as if there were no "soul sleep" available for these people then they don't want to see Jesus at all ?
For what reason is a sleep delay is so vitally important I just don't get ?
It does not even make any sense .
That we, at our very core , we are spirits just as God is a Spirit is an undeniable fact.
Spirits confined, restrained & held down by our flesh.
Decaying flesh that requires food, water, sleep.
All things that constrain and confine the spirit.
Dismiss the body and the spirit is subject to none of it .
Does a spirit have to be laying down in order to sleep, or can a spirit sleep comfortably in a seated position? lol
If they are side sleepers do most spirits prefer to sleep on their left or their right side ?

Jhn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

I had the idea that "soul sleep" advocates teach that the "soul" (consciousness) doesn't exist at death. JWs teach (and maybe SDAs) that "the spirit returns to God who gave it" - meaning that the individual person no longer exists, and there is no more consciousness of anything (much like non-existent pre-life). They use verses in Ecc. to support it (prooftexting the pretext). I take it that they are too lazy or proud to learn how to properly exegete scripture, so they pit scripture against scripture as a strategy for supporting their idea (to prove to themselves they have the right answer).

But from what I read of scripture and of testimonies of NDEs (which concur with scripture to some extent), the soul is the consciousness, and is permanently attached to the spirit, so that in death the spirit leaves the body and the soul (consciousness) along with all the memories of life go with it. Thus, they recognize relatives in heaven, etc.

One of the most puzzling things about the human mind is that it is gullible about the first idea that comes along, and then resists change whenever another idea opposes the first one. What makes it worse is when ideas come along that appeal to sinful desires. There may be nothing appealing about the idea of soul sleep, except perhaps it appeals to the defiant attitude against traditional teachings, which concurs with bitterness against parents and the like.

 

[for_his_glory]

It looks like you're contradicting yourself here. First you say that soul sleep is a false teaching, then you say that the soul doesn't exist at death. Did you make a mistake here, and add a teaching section you disagree with?

The soul does not sleep with those who have died, but is very much alive and like the breath that goes back to God so the same with the soul.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Runningman]

Soul Sleep yes or no?

It's possible. Literal souls were told to "rest a little while longer." Resting can be sleeping and souls were told to rest. It would at minimum seem that souls are most likely capable of sleeping but not necessarily required to.

Revelation 6
9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

 

[Consecrated Life]

It's possible. Literal souls were told to "rest a little while longer." Resting can be sleeping and souls were told to rest. It would at minimum seem that souls are most likely capable of sleeping but not necessarily required to.

Revelation 6
9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Rest is rest .
Sleep is sleep.
Words mean things.
I'm actually at rest right now as I write this and simultaneously call out to my wife in the kitchen asking her "what's for dinner" ?
Multitasking, you can actually cry out for dinner and type stuff while you are at rest.

 

[hawkman]

I'm actually at rest right now as I write this and simultaneously call out to my wife in the kitchen asking her "what's for dinner" ?

Wife calls back and says "whatever they have on the menu when we get there . "

 

[LeviR]

Rest is rest .
Sleep is sleep.
Words mean things.
I'm actually at rest right now as I write this and simultaneously call out to my wife in the kitchen asking her "what's for dinner" ?
Multitasking, you can actually cry out for dinner and type stuff while you are at rest.

That’s seems to be limited in scope of meaning for “rest”.

Many gravestones have RIP on them. Suggesting the one in the grave is resting.

I don’t think we should limit our scope as to make someone else’s idea seem ridiculous.

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

I don’t think we should limit our scope as to make someone else’s idea seem ridiculous

Sorry, but I had to highlight that. I believe everyone's thought's and opinions have value.

As for myself, I'm okay with everyone thinking I am ridiculous; and downright crazy.

 

[Consecrated Life]

That’s seems to be limited in scope of meaning for “rest”.

Many gravestones have RIP on them. Suggesting the one in the grave is resting.

I don’t think we should limit our scope as to make someone else’s idea seem ridiculous.

The title of the thread is about the meaning of the word " Sleep".
Jumping ship in midstream to another word like "rest" to say it also means sleep , only means one thing.
This thread is floundering fast.

 

[JLB]

Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies, his soul "sleeps" or the denial of man's conscious existence between when he dies and the resurrection day. It's what is called the intermediate state of the believer, in which both the body and the soul lay rest in the ground and the phrase 'soul sleep' appears to have been popularized by John Calvin. In this condition, the person is not aware or conscious till he is made alive at the resurrection by Christ at the Second Coming.

So what does the Bible say at whether you lay in the grave in a non sentient state, awaiting Christ.

Let's look at the story of Lazarus who was raised up from the grave by Christ.
John 11:11-14 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. And then in verse 17 Jesus says of Lazarus: 17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he [Lazarus] had lain in the grave four days already.

We see that Jesus equated death to sleep and used the terms interchangeably; and in this story Lazarus has been dead for 4 days. Let's continue:
Verse 43-44: And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Now, Lazarus had been dead for 4 days, if he had in fact gone to heaven (or hell) in any conscious form why is nothing told by Lazarus of this? Lazarus does not come back to life with any stories of where he was, what he saw, or anything. He doesn't talk about walking on streets of gold nor burning with fire. After being resurrected he does speak, and all he says is a simple acknowledgement of who was standing there with Jesus. So lets look at the whole Bible and see what we find.

For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:7-8


For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:14


After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, Revelation 7:9


JLB

 

[LeviR]

The title of the thread is about the meaning of the word " Sleep".
Jumping ship in midstream to another word like "rest" to say it also means sleep , only means one thing.
This thread is floundering fast.

A person can work all day, rest at night and wake in the morning.

I can see it was a bad idea to join this site. Bye

 

[Runningman]

Rest is rest .
Sleep is sleep.
Words mean things.
I'm actually at rest right now as I write this and simultaneously call out to my wife in the kitchen asking her "what's for dinner" ?
Multitasking, you can actually cry out for dinner and type stuff while you are at rest.

Sure resting can mean sleeping. When someone is resting it can mean sleeping.

In Matthew 26:45, Jesus said "Sleep on now, and take your rest" using the same Greek word for rest as is in Revelation 6:11. That proves the resting can be sleeping and thus soul sleep isn't necessarily wrong.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Sure resting can mean sleeping. When someone is resting it can mean sleeping.

In Matthew 26:45, Jesus said "Sleep on now, and take your rest" using the same Greek word for rest as is in Revelation 6:11. That proves the resting can be sleeping and thus soul sleep isn't necessarily wrong.

So by this you believe what Jesus really meant to say to the thief was :

" Today you will sleep and take rest with me in Paradise " ?

 

[LeviR]

Sure resting can mean sleeping. When someone is resting it can mean sleeping.

In Matthew 26:45, Jesus said "Sleep on now, and take your rest" using the same Greek word for rest as is in Revelation 6:11. That proves the resting can be sleeping and thus soul sleep isn't necessarily wrong.

Thank you for not showing contempt prior to investigation. It’s rare today.

13For now I would have lain still and been quiet,
I would have been asleep;
Then I would have been at rest (Job 3)

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.” Rev 14:13

 

[GodsGrace]

A person can work all day, rest at night and wake in the morning.

I can see it was a bad idea to join this site. Bye

Hi Levi,
You Are going to encounter different opinions.
That's why it's good to discuss and clarify our ideas.
Welcome to the Forum!

 

[GodsGrace]

I’ve just joined this forum. Will I be banned for offering counter-points?

Hi LeviR
You can offer any point you wish to.
Our rules just ask that you do so with respect for all ideas and that you address the topic and not the person.

The mods are here to keep the peace and not to censure.

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[JLB]

Wonderful for you and for the false teachers that use that as if it justifies false teaching, yes ?

Since neither Jesus nor the thief, nor anyone we know of , went to paradise then, and Jesus does not lie,

that means something else at least, maybe several things, are wrong with the false teachings which are impossible to have been done, but which were built upon quicksand ,

which Jesus very specifically warned against, right ?

Why would you refer to the words of Jesus Christ as false teachings?


And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43


Jesus did not ascend into heaven on that day, but went down into heart of the earth for three days.



JLB

 

[Runningman]

Thank you for not showing contempt prior to investigation. It’s rare today.

13For now I would have lain still and been quiet,
I would have been asleep;
Then I would have been at rest (Job 3)

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.” Rev 14:13

Yep and it may be possible to be a bit of a Bible lawyer and argue that "rest" doesn't necessarily mean sleep, but Matthew 26:45 removes all doubt about that since Jesus said "Sleep on now, and take your rest." In that case, there is a shoe in for soul sleep, but not enough information that this is something all souls do or for how long.