As Thomas wasn't present when Jesus 'breathed on them', when did he receive the gift of the Holy Ghost ?
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Speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
Forgive me, but we are going to go in circles debating this for eternity unless one of us stops. I already disagree with your religion and we are beginning to just repeat ourselves. I suggest you go back and read my comments thoroughly when you're open.
However, I will comment on what you believe and leave something that informs others.
What you are teaching about are your beliefs regarding salvation and they are textbook Oneness Pentecostalism. It is generally considered to be a false gospel because the soteriology places a requirement on speaking in tongues. Yes it's true there are people who did receive the gift of tongues following their water baptism and the laying on of hands (Acts 19) but that doesn't say that is supposed to be what happens to all people. If you have ever been to church before you would know that this is not the case.
While it may seem like the tongues are an effect to the cause, the actual cause is obedience to God and the effect is God giving them the Holy Spirit. Sometimes the reception of the Holy Spirit may involve one or more gifts and it may not even include tongues. It depends entirely what God has in mind.
Observe how there is no mention of being given the gift of tongues below:
Acts 5
32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
The evidence that we already have the Holy Spirit is made plain by the kinds of fruit we are bearing, not speaking in tongues, or the usage of other gifts and even if one has them they can still not be saved:
Matthew 7
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Additionally, there is no mention of those in Acts 2:37-47 receiving the gift of tongues. So already your doctrine lacks key support.
The Bible also doesn't say that speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation, evidence of "New Birth," or evidence of salvation. What tongues are are a gift used for church edification and sometimes outreach. That's it. On the list of gifts to desire, tongues is not even the main one (1 Corinthians 12, 14)
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My Rock
Member
This was not in response to salvation. It was a response to whether or not it is the norm that those baptised in the Holy Ghost speak in tongues. I was simply stating that 120+ is more than two and everyone of them baptised in the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues. Biblical fact very well established.
No mention of tongues being given in Acts 2:37-47 to about 3,000 people following their repentance and water baptism, my friend, and that's a Biblical fact.
My Rock
Member
You are very correct it doesn't specifically mention tongues. The pattern established in Acts 2 is consistent with later accounts in Acts, where the reception of the Holy Spirit is often accompanied by speaking in tongues, such as in Acts 10:44-46 and Acts 19:6. To suggest that the 3,000 did not speak in tongues after receiving the Holy Spirit would ignore the context of the entire event and the scriptural precedent set by the initial outpouring.
Therefore, it is theologically sound to infer that the 3,000 who were baptized and received the Holy Spirit likely experienced the same sign of speaking in tongues, even if it is not explicitly mentioned in that specific passage. The emphasis in Acts 2:37-47 is on the transformative power of the Holy Spirit and the birth of the Church, which was marked by the same miraculous signs that accompanied its initial outpouring.
The pattern you are saying exists apparently doesn't exist. Look at Acts 2:37-47 where the biggest example of people being baptized, repenting, and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit didn't receive the gift of speaking in tongues. The "gift of the Holy Spirit" are any number of the spiritual gifts as described in 1 Cor. 12 and 14 and not just tongues.
How do you know they didn't all start to speak with tongues ?
No other gifts were written of either, on the day of Pentecost.
Will you also conjecture that no signs of the giving of the Holy Ghost were given at all ?
In your assertion above you said, "The pattern established in Acts 2 is consistent with later accounts in Acts, where the reception of the Holy Spirit is often accompanied by speaking in tongues," and then you go on to say, "3,000 who were baptized and received the Holy Spirit likely experienced the same sign of speaking in tongues," and then you finish with, "The emphasis in Acts 2:37-47 is on the transformative power of the Holy Spirit and the birth of the Church, which was marked by the same miraculous signs that accompanied its initial outpouring."
So, first you say it is possible and then you say it is definite. Which is it?
Furthermore, reading the rest of Acts 2 there is no mention of the newly Baptized speaking in tongues. It seems therefore that you are inferring something that may or may not be true. That is not to say that the Holy Spirit could give someone the gift of tongues but that is but one of the gifts that God gives.
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
1 Corinthians 12:1-11 NKJV
But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the best gifts.
1 Corinthians 12:20-31 NKJV
If the Holy Spirit always gives the gift of tongues does He also always give the gift of apostleship, prophecy, teaching, working of miracles, healings, helps, administrations, and interpretation of tongues?
Something to think about.
Based on what is written, there is no mention of it, therefore it's follows good scholarship to not make any assumptions to the contrary.
No mention of tongue speaking therefore the assertion that tongues are evidence of being born again, the Holy Spirit baptism, or salvation is moot.
Do you know what the evidence of being born again is?
I agree.
So is the assertion that it didn't happen.
Yes, a life lived without sin.
My Rock
Member
The possibility of a Christian living a sinless life is a deeply theological question that has been debated for centuries. According to Scripture, all humans are born into sin and are inherently flawed (Romans 3:23). Even after conversion, Christians still struggle with the sinful nature (Romans 7:18-19). However, through the power of the Holy Spirit, believers are called to pursue holiness and strive to live in accordance with God's will (1 Peter 1:15-16). While perfection in this life is not attainable due to our human limitations, the transformative work of the Holy Spirit enables Christians to grow in righteousness and resist sin more effectively over time. The goal is not to achieve sinlessness but to live a life that reflects the character of Christ, continually repenting and seeking God’s grace when we fall short (1 John 1:8-9). Ultimately, the promise of complete sanctification will be fulfilled in the life to come when believers are fully conformed to the image of Christ (1 John 3:2).
Thanks for joining in to the topic.
Don't you think that all theological questions should start with...What would God want ?
Don't you think He wants us to serve only Him ?
That POV excludes the fact that the reborn are now of God's seed and not Adam's.
How can one born of God have a flawed nature ?
The Rom 7 verses you cite are a narrative of Paul's preconversion days.
That was when he was still in the "flesh", (v 5), and trying unsuccessfully to keep the Mosaic Law
You posit a pursuit based on impossibility ?
What would be the point of that ?
The reborn have no limitations, when serving the Lord.
Sounds like the old "slow-rebirth" doctrine.
"Better and better with time".
But the reborn are instantly made perfect at their rebirth from God's seed, and can continue being that way through out their remaining time on earth.
Growing in grace and knowledge, over time we are enabled to carry a heavier and heavier load.
Besides, God says..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Just look for His promised escapes, when temptation arises !
You are correct.
We start out sinless, as we have turned from sin, (repented of sin), and been washed clean of past sins at our baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
The result, is a cleansed, non-sinner !
Those walking in darkness, are to be introduced to Christianity.
We are sanctified at the application of the atoning, consecrating, sanctifying, blood of Christ.
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:10)
Fair enough.
While sinning is strictly forbidden, it does happen, and there can be grace, mercy, and forgiveness still. Sinless perfection with the immediate, irrecoverable, loss of salvation isn't really the idea the Bible is trying to convey.
1 John 1
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
My Rock
Member
I used the word often because not every instance in the Bible specifically say tongues. But the new birth is "Water and Spirit" You can be water baptized by an ordained Minister but to be Spirit Baptized (Holy Ghost and Fire) that is by God alone. I believe everyone who raises their Hands in complete surrender and asks God for the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and not doubt they will speak in tongues.
You are right in every instance it doesn't specify tongues.
2 Corinthians 13:1, "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."
Matthew 18:16,"But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."
The principle referenced here comes from both Deuteronomy 19:15 and is echoed in the New Testament, in passages like Matthew 18:16 and 2 Corinthians 13:1, which emphasize the importance of confirming a matter through the testimony of two or three witnesses. This concept underscores the value of corroboration and truthfulness in establishing facts or judgments. This point being made is not myopinion and someone else's. On day of Pentecost there was way more than two witnesses (3,000 plus 120+) so it is an established fact and this is biblical and no way around it.
The gifts of the Spirit, as described in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, are given according to the will of the Holy Spirit, who distributes them individually as He determines. While the gift of tongues is often seen as a sign of the initial infilling of the Holy Spirit in Acts (for personal edification why it is sometimes referred to as the lesser gift), the other gifts like apostleship, prophecy, teaching, working of miracles, and others are not given to every believer. Instead, they are distributed among the body of Christ to fulfill different roles and functions within the Church.
The key difference lies in the purpose of these gifts. Tongues, as seen in Acts, often served as an initial evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, signifying the outpouring of the Spirit on all believers. However, the other gifts are given to build up the Church, equip believers for ministry, and edify the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-13). Not every believer is called to be an apostle, prophet, or teacher, nor does every believer work miracles or healings. These gifts are distributed in a diverse and complementary way to ensure that the Church functions effectively as the body of Christ, with each member contributing according to the gifts they have received.
Again, you say "often served" but not always and yet you claim that speaking in tongues is the only way one can know the Holy Spirit has indwelled the person. This is a contradiction. I'm not saying that speaking in tongues is not evidence of one receiving the Holy Spirit, I'm saying that it isn't always the case. As I pointed out from 1 Corinthians 12, there are many things that can be evident of someone receiving the Holy Spirit and this is where I disagree with the Pentecostalism point of view. I believe it puts God into a box. And, as you even said, the gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 are given by the Holy Spirit as He wills and those gifts include speaking in tongues.
My Rock
Member
"often served" ONLY because scripture doesn't say it everytime. The evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit is a significant aspect of the New Testament church experience, as seen in Acts. While it is true that the Holy Spirit's presence can manifest in various ways, the consistent sign of speaking in tongues as the initial evidence of the Holy Spirit is highlighted in several key passages (Acts 2:4, 10:46, 19:6). This sign is not meant to "put God in a box" but rather to affirm a biblical pattern that signifies a believer’s entry into the New Covenant experience. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit, accompanied by speaking in tongues, is a fulfillment of prophecy (Joel 2:28-29) and serves as a clear, unifying sign across diverse groups and cultures within the early church. The consistent evidence of speaking in tongues serves not only as a personal assurance of receiving the Holy Spirit but also as a corporate witness to the unity and continuity of God’s work among believers. This pattern, observed across different settings and groups, underscores the inclusivity of the New Covenant, where all who believe, regardless of background, receive the same sign of God's indwelling Spirit. By adhering to this biblical model, we honor the way God has chosen to manifest His presence in the lives of believers, demonstrating the transformative power of the Spirit that transcends cultural and linguistic boundaries.
The concern that emphasizing speaking in tongues as evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit might "put God in a box" can be understood as a caution against limiting God's work. However, the focus on tongues is not about limiting God but about recognizing a consistent, biblical pattern that God Himself established. Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46, and Acts 19:6 all describe believers speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit filled them. This was a divine act, not a human imposition. The significance of tongues represents the transformative power of God working in a person’s life, and while God can work in many ways, He has chosen to use this sign as a clear, unifying evidence of the Spirit's indwelling presence.
The gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 are indeed given according to the Holy Spirit's will, and these include diverse manifestations such as prophecy, healing, and speaking in tongues. However, it is important to distinguish between the gift of tongues as a spiritual gift for edification within the church (1 Corinthians 12:10, 14:5) and the evidence of tongues as a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit. The tongues that accompany Spirit baptism, as described in Acts, are not the same as the spiritual gift used in church gatherings for interpretation and edification. The tongues in Acts is a consistent, initial evidence of the Holy Spirit, while the gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12 are diverse manifestations given for specific purposes within the body of Christ. Thus, speaking in tongues as initial evidence does not confine God’s work but rather confirms a biblical pattern of New Testament experience.
According to scriptural understanding, the operation of the gifts of the Spirit cannot occur without first receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues. This belief is rooted in the understanding that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is the gateway to receiving the empowerment of the Spirit necessary for the operation of the spiritual gifts. In Acts 1:8 (KJV), Jesus told His disciples, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me." (Holy Ghost and Fire prophesied by John and the commencement of its fulfillment in Acts 2:1-4 speaking in tongues) This empowerment is seen as foundational for the exercise of any spiritual gift listed in 1 Corinthians 12.
The gifts of the Spirit, such as prophecy, healing, and discerning of spirits, are manifestations of the Holy Spirit (must be baptized in The Holy Spirit before you can operate in the Gifts of the Spirit) working through believers. However, before these gifts can be exercised, one must first receive the Holy Ghost, with the initial evidence being speaking in tongues, as consistently shown in the book of Acts (Acts 2:4, 10:46, 19:6). This experience is seen as the entry point into the Spirit-filled life, where the believer is now equipped to function in the various gifts of the Spirit. Thus, speaking in tongues is not merely one gift among many but is the initial sign that the believer has received the Spirit and is now empowered to operate in the other gifts.
Every believer receives the Spirit when they are initially declared righteous and are saved. It is nowhere stated in Scripture that tongues "is the initial sign that the believer has received the Spirit and is now empowered to operate in other gifts." That goes against the clear teaching of Scripture:
1Co 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
1Co 12:5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
1Co 12:6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
1Co 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (ESV)
1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
...
1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. (ESV)
Speaking in tongues is a rarity in Scripture. In fact, it only occurs three times, three significant times--at the initial outpouring of the Spirit in Jerusalem; the initial outpouring for Gentiles in the broader Jewish region; the initial outpouring for Gentiles further abroad:
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. (ESV)
Act 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, (ESV)
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. (ESV)
These are all significant because of where and to whom these instances occurred. It is a mistake to take these instances which show the outpouring of the Spirit as a sign of God's salvation to various people groups, and make a doctrine out of them that everyone who receives the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues. Paul makes it clear that not everyone has the gift of tongues, since many have spiritual gifts other than speaking in tongues, and that not everyone in the church at Corinth spoke in tongues (or prophesied). The passages in 1 Cor are where we get our doctrine about tongues.
It's worth noting that tongues is not mentioned outside of Acts or 1 Cor, so any understanding of tongues must come from the relevant passages in those two books.
Do you suggest the tongues that accompany Holy Spirit Baptism are not the gift of speaking in tongues ? There are diversities in speaking in tongues , but it is the same gift , the gift of tongues .
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Sin doesn't have to happen.
Instead of considering God's word as a box of band-aids, consider it a cure !
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
My Rock
Member
How did everyone present on the Day of Pentecost know they received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, they spoke in tongues. 120+ way more than 2 witnesses to establish a fact according to Scripture.
You admit yourself with this passage that all should speak in tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:29-30, "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"
Addresses the diversity of spiritual gifts within the body of Christ, emphasizing that not every believer will have the same role or gift. The church is likened to a body, with each member having a distinct function, and all are necessary for the health and growth of the church. This diversity ensures that the church operates effectively, with apostles, prophets, teachers, miracle workers, those with gifts of healing, and others each contributing uniquely to the mission of the church.
It is important to distinguish between the different types of speaking in tongues mentioned in the New Testament. The Bible teaches that speaking in tongues serves different purposes and contexts. First, there is speaking in tongues as the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit, which is a private and personal experience for every believer baptized in the Holy Ghost. This experience is a sign of the New Birth and is distinct from the spiritual gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12.
Second, the passage in 1 Corinthians 12 refers to the specific gift of tongues used in a public worship setting. This gift, meant for the edification of the church, occurs during quiet spiritual moments and requires interpretation. Not all believers will possess this particular gift, just as not all are apostles, prophets, or teachers. This public exercise of the gift of tongues, accompanied by interpretation, is different from the personal prayer language experienced by individuals when they receive the Holy Spirit.
While every believer is encouraged to seek and receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as a personal experience, the specific gift of tongues used in church settings for communal edification and requiring interpretation is given according to God’s sovereign will and purpose. This distinction clarifies the different roles of speaking in tongues within the body of Christ, both for individual spiritual growth and for the edification of the church.