Speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit

[My Rock]

Well, the gospel in Oneness Pentecostalism can be reduced to "Speak in tongues or die."

I have never stated that one will die if they do not speak in tongues. My intent is to emphasize that when the Holy Ghost and Fire Baptism, as prophesied by John and fulfilled in Acts 2:1-4, occurs, the initial physical evidence of this Baptism is speaking in tongues. This is not the only evidence, but it is the immediate sign that accompanies the reception of the Spirit. In other words, when Christ baptizes you with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues is a natural and expected manifestation.

It is important to understand the role of speaking in tongues within the broader context of salvation and the gospel message. Speaking in tongues is seen as the initial physical evidence of receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is a significant aspect of the salvation experience. However, this practice is not viewed as the entirety of the gospel or the sole requirement for salvation. The core of the gospel is repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the reception of the Holy Spirit. Tongues are a manifestation of the Spirit's presence but are not meant to overshadow the essential elements of repentance and faith in Christ. The focus is on a genuine relationship with God and transformation through the Holy Spirit, rather than simply performing a specific act.

You're gonna get a lot of people saying, "How long you want me to speak in tongues?"

From this perspective, the concern about performance or the length of time one speaks in tongues reflects a misunderstanding of the purpose and significance of the practice. Speaking in tongues is not intended to be a performance or a measure of one's spiritual worth but rather a sign of the Holy Spirit's presence and empowerment. The emphasis is on the genuine experience of being filled with the Spirit, which naturally leads to speaking in tongues as a manifestation. If individuals feel pressured to speak in tongues for extended periods, it may indicate a need for greater teaching on the nature of the Holy Spirit and the importance of focusing on a heartfelt, authentic experience rather than a ritualistic display.

Everyone who is put under that kind of pressure is going to try to perform. That's why in over a decade you've consistently observed tongues. In over a decade of places that don't pressure people to speak tongues, I have only observed it two times.

This observation highlights the need to distinguish between genuine spiritual experiences and coerced or performative ones. The experience of speaking in tongues should be a natural outcome of receiving the Holy Spirit rather than a forced or pressured act. Consistent manifestations of tongues in environments where people are encouraged and taught about the Holy Spirit might reflect the authentic presence of the Spirit. In contrast, infrequent occurrences in settings where there is less emphasis or pressure may suggest that the environment does not facilitate the same level of openness to the Holy Spirit's work. It is crucial to ensure that teachings and practices surrounding the Holy Spirit are grounded in biblical understanding and foster genuine spiritual experiences rather than mere performances.

 

[Free]

Philippians 2:12, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

That is not what that means. To suggest that there is work we do for our justification, is to add works to salvation, and Paul says that a person who teaches that is to be considered accursed (Gal 1:8-9).

 

[My Rock]

That is not what that means. To suggest that there is work we do for our justification, is to add works to salvation, and Paul says that a person who teaches that is to be considered accursed (Gal 1:8-9).

You are right. I apologise.

 

[JLB]

In other words, when Christ baptizes you with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues is a natural and expected manifestation.

Yes sir.

 

[JLB]

That is not what that means. To suggest that there is work we do for our justification, is to add works to salvation, and Paul says that a person who teaches that is to be considered accursed (Gal 1:8-9).

The only people who are justified are those who obey.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21

The “work” Abraham did was to obey the Lord to sacrifice his son.

Otherwise you would have us to believe it is those who disobey are justified.

That is why the scriptures teach that we are to obey the Gospel.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”
Romans 10:16




JLB

 

[Free]

The only people who are justified are those who obey.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21

The “work” Abraham did was to obey the Lord to sacrifice his son.

There is no work for justification. Obedience is evidence of having been justified. You don't seem to be aware that "justification" has different meanings and it is exceedingly important to know the difference. Paul uses the same example of Abraham in Romans 4 but absolutely rejects the idea that Abraham was justified by works.

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, (ESV)

So, we can easily and clearly see that Paul and James are using two different meanings of "justification."

Otherwise you would have us to believe it is those who disobey are justified.

Not at all. There is no way to get that from what I said. As Paul says repeatedly, justification is a free gift of God's grace. Justification is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

That is why the scriptures teach that we are to obey the Gospel.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”
Romans 10:16

Looks like you believe in salvation by works. You should see what Paul says in Gal 1:8, 9.

Anyway, this is off topic.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The only people who are justified are those who obey.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21

The “work” Abraham did was to obey the Lord to sacrifice his son.

Otherwise you would have us to believe it is those who disobey are justified.

That is why the scriptures teach that we are to obey the Gospel.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”
Romans 10:16

So sinners are not justified.
I agree.

 

[Runningman]

Yes. Exactly. That is what the promise of the Father is. The promise of the Holy Spirit.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

There is evidence when a person has received the Holy Spirit; the baptism with the Holy Spirit.


Look again at the scripture I posted.

Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

Tongues was the promise for those people it was promised to. There is nothing in scripture about this being a promise to everyone going forward.

Acts 2:33 is just Peter testifying of what he was doing not what they were doing. There isn’t enough Biblical evidence to sell the gift of the Holy Spirit always being tongues. It doesn’t actually happen this way in real life either.

 

[My Rock]

Tongues was the promise for those people it was promised to. There is nothing in scripture about this being a promise to everyone going forward.

Let's consider Acts 2:39, which states, "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." This passage explicitly expands the scope of the promise beyond the immediate audience of Peter's sermon. The promise of the Holy Spirit, which includes the accompanying sign of speaking in tongues as demonstrated in Acts 2:4, is extended to future generations ("your children") and to those "afar off," encompassing both geographic distance and future believers. This promise is further clarified as being for "as many as the Lord our God shall call," (Anyone and everyone who God will call throughout ALL time) indicating that the experience of receiving the Holy Spirit, with speaking in tongues as the initial evidence, is not limited to a specific group or time period but is available to all believers who respond to God's call. Therefore, the claim that tongues were only a promise for those in the early church lacks biblical support, as the scripture clearly presents this promise as ongoing and inclusive of all who come to faith in Christ.

 

[My Rock]

Acts 2:33 is just Peter testifying of what he was doing not what they were doing. There isn’t enough Biblical evidence to sell the gift of the Holy Spirit always being tongues. It doesn’t actually happen this way in real life either.

How much clearer could it be. Acts 1:4, "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me."

Jesus commanded them not to even leave Jerusalem until they received The Holy Ghost speaking in Tongues.
120+ people here assembled together and praying for the promise of the Father. Everyone speaking in tongues. Crowd asking What to do to be saved? Acts 2:39 Peter says this is available to "as many as the Lord our God shall call" 120+ how much more proof do you need.

 

[Runningman]

I have never stated that one will die if they do not speak in tongues.

You have made every effort to suggest this while falling short of directly saying it. See below. This is just from page 1. You have been pushing the same narrative for many pages.

First, there is speaking in tongues as the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit, which is a private and personal experience for every believer baptized in the Holy Ghost.

This experience is a sign of the New Birth and is distinct from the spiritual gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12.

all depict speaking in tongues as an immediate, observable sign when individuals first receive the Holy Spirit.

speaking in tongues is an important sign, but not the sole measure of one’s relationship with God.

Living a holy and overcoming life without the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues, would be exceedingly difficult because the Holy Spirit is the source of spiritual power and guidance for the believer.

As you can see, without the tongues, there is no salvation in your religion.

 

[electedbyHim]

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

I have been down this path many times in the past, being told I am not saved because I did not speak in tongues an did not have Holy Spirit.

Pentecostals/charismatics take this verse and justify thier false doctrine of evidence of salvation. It is simply not true.

They also justify speaking gibberish with the word "utterance" in Acts 2:4. tongues were human languages

There are many rules to be followed in 1 Corinthians 14 that are broken by those who claim to speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:10 There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and no kind is without meaning.

Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Jews.

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.

Have to run now.

Grace and peace to you all.

 

[Runningman]

Let's consider Acts 2:39, which states, "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." This passage explicitly expands the scope of the promise beyond the immediate audience of Peter's sermon. The promise of the Holy Spirit, which includes the accompanying sign of speaking in tongues as demonstrated in Acts 2:4, is extended to future generations ("your children") and to those "afar off," encompassing both geographic distance and future believers. This promise is further clarified as being for "as many as the Lord our God shall call," (Anyone and everyone who God will call throughout ALL time) indicating that the experience of receiving the Holy Spirit, with speaking in tongues as the initial evidence, is not limited to a specific group or time period but is available to all believers who respond to God's call. Therefore, the claim that tongues were only a promise for those in the early church lacks biblical support, as the scripture clearly presents this promise as ongoing and inclusive of all who come to faith in Christ.

In context, the promise Peter is referring to in Acts 2:39 has nothing to do with tongues. Peter is continuing the point regarding the previously mentioned promise moments before in his sermon. It's referring to the resurrection of Christ in regards to their own resurrection and salvation.

Acts 2​

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; ​

Furthermore, Acts 2:33 states that even Jesus himself received the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit Peter is telling them they can receive, and yet Jesus never spoke in tongues. The promise is about salvation, the Holy Spirit, but Peter is not suggesting they need to speak in tongues or guaranteeing they will. He never said any such thing.

Acts 2​

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.​

 

[Runningman]

How much clearer could it be. Acts 1:4, "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me."

Jesus commanded them not to even leave Jerusalem until they received The Holy Ghost speaking in Tongues.
120+ people here assembled together and praying for the promise of the Father. Everyone speaking in tongues. Crowd asking What to do to be saved? Acts 2:39 Peter says this is available to "as many as the Lord our God shall call" 120+ how much more proof do you need.

I am prepared to work with you until you have all the proof you need. We have mainly stayed in Acts and I will stay there with you until you're ready to look into the rest of the Bible. As soon as we leave Acts, your idea of tongues is going to evaporate. No one anywhere made any such guarantees about tongues being a sign of their salvation, reception of the Holy Spirit, etc. It isn't considered to be a point in the gospel or a requirement in Christianity according to anything explicitly taught by Jesus or the apostles.

 

[JLB]

Tongues was the promise for those people it was promised to. There is nothing in scripture about this being a promise to everyone going forward.

The promise of the Father, which is the baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence that is seen and heard, speaking in tongues is for all people.

For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. Acts 2:39

Did God call you out of darkness into His marvelous light?

Yes! Amen.


Then the promise is for you, and all that He called.




JLB

 

[JLB]

There is no work for justification.

Only those who respond to the call of the Gospel to repent, with the work of obedience, are justified.

The response of obedience to the Gospel command repent is to confess Jesus as LORD.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

Only those who obey the Gospel are saved; justified, made righteous.

since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8






JLB

 

[Free]

Only those who respond to the call of the Gospel to repent, with the work of obedience, are justified.

The response of obedience to the Gospel command repent is to confess Jesus as LORD.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

Only those who obey the Gospel are saved; justified, made righteous.

since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Salvation is a gift and a work of God from start to finish. We obey and do good works because we are saved (justified), not to be justified; it is the evidence of having been justified. This is what Paul says of those who add works, even repentance as a work, to justification:

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (ESV)


But, again, this is not the topic. Please start another thread if you want to continue this discussion.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I have not noticed anyone mention what specific dialect they were gifted in speaking for the fulfillment of service to God ?

 

[My Rock]

You have made every effort to suggest this while falling short of directly saying it. See below. This is just from page 1. You have been pushing the same narrative for many pages.


As you can see, without the tongues, there is no salvation in your religion.

In each of those instances, I have never stated, nor would I ever say, that if you do not speak in tongues, you will die lost. The only point I am emphasizing, and which is clearly supported by Scripture, is that when you earnestly seek God in prayer, asking Him to baptize you with the Holy Spirit, you will speak in tongues, as is clearly evidenced in Acts 2:1-4. This is the only truth I am striving to make clear.

 

[My Rock]

Pentecostals/charismatics take this verse and justify their false doctrine of evidence of salvation.

On the Day of Pentecost, the question being asked by the crowd was clear and urgent: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37). This question arose after Peter boldly preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, convicting the listeners of their role in His crucifixion. They were cut to the heart, realizing their need for salvation and guidance on how to respond to this revelation. The direct response given by Peter (Under the direction of the Holy Ghost) leaves no room for doubt: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38). Peter's answer outlined the essential steps of salvation, beginning with repentance, followed by baptism in Jesus' name, and culminating in the promise of receiving the Holy Ghost. This response was not a suggestion but a definitive, authoritative directive for all who sought to enter into the New Covenant relationship with God. The events of that day and Peter's response set a clear precedent for the early Church, establishing the foundational pattern for salvation that continues to resonate with believers today.

There are many rules to be followed in 1 Corinthians 14

Speaking in the Spirit: Understanding Tongues and Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14

In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul addresses the proper use of spiritual gifts, particularly tongues and prophecy, within the church. This chapter serves as a vital guide for both new believers and seasoned saints, as it reveals the heart of God concerning orderly worship and the edification of the body...

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