Speaking In Tongues

[Julian Pyke]

1) Define Speaking In Tongues for me.

2) Provide Scripture to back you up.

3) Do you believe in it?

4) If you do, or don't, is it for today?

Once we have a good amount of posts we can start debating it persay. I just wanna see what everyone says.

 

[SputnikBoy]

1) Define Speaking In Tongues for me.

Speaking in the language of another that may not be your own.

2) Provide Scripture to back you up.

Acts 2:5-12

3) Do you believe in it?

For the time that it was required, yes.

4) If you do, or don't, is it for today?

No, I don't believe that it's required today. We have the completed canons of scripture that are available in almost every language and dialect.

Once we have a good amount of posts we can start debating it persay. I just wanna see what everyone says.

You DO realize that you're going to stir up a hornet's nest, don't you? ;-)

 

[AVBunyan]

The Gifts

All right – tongues – easy if you take the Bible as it stands and understand how God deals with Israel as a nation. Most make issue of prayer languages, interpreter or not and never cover what tongues are really for. Let’s get down to the basics. Remember, God deals with Israel as a nation differently than he deals with the body of Christ today.

According to the Bible tongues are for a sign (1 Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign,…). The verse didn’t say tongues were for your personal edification, prayer time, public worship service, etc. Tongues are for a sign. Now, who require signs in the Bible? The Jews require a sign (1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,….). Why did the Jews require a sign? It was a part of their history. When God and Moses had their conversation at the burning bush Moses said (and I paraphrase), “They are not going to believe me.†The Lord said, “I will give you some signs to authenticate your ministry.†Moses went to them and did signs and wonders and they believed. When the Lord came to Israel in the gospels he came with signs to authenticate his ministry and some believed. In fact the Pharisees came seeking a sign - Mat 12:38 “Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.†After Christ arose he gave the apostles the signs to authenticate their ministries they went about doing signs and wonders.

Next, tongues were not for believers but for unbelievers – “not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: - I Cor. 14:22. This is the clincher. Moses went to Jews who were unbelievers of his ministry. Jesus went to an unbelieving Israel with signs. Paul went to unbelieving Israel with signs. Also, the Jews were “unbelievers†in the sense that they did not believe that God would not bless the Gentiles. In Acts 2 where the signs and wonders took place Peter preached to thousands of “unbelieving Jews†and they believed after the message with signs and wonders (Acts 2:43).

Today tongues are used in churches for believers – in other words done for the edification of the speaker or hearer, which is contrary to I Cor. 1:22 and 14:22 (note both verses are 22 – can’t beat the book!)

Now, when you use your “tongues†in your church service are there any unbelieving Jews there? Maybe and maybe not but most likely not. When you are using “tongues†in your private prayer closet are there any unbelieving Jews there?

Let’s wrap it up – When God deals with Israel as a nation he uses signs and wonders as authentication. God is not dealing with Israel as a nation today – God is dealing with individuals. Tongues are for a sign and to unbelievers, not believers. Tongues are a sign of judgment to the unbelieving Jews. Also, unbelievers are “believing “ Jews in Acts who were didn’t believe the Gentiles could get in on the blessings.

Tongue speakers are not following this today one bit. I really don’t care about how good tongues feel to you and how excited you get when you utter your “tonguesâ€Â. When you pray and speak in tongues are you doing it as a sign to unbelieving Jews? I don’t care if you saw millions at once speaking in tongues. What you saw were millions of deceived people led by an unclean spirit. They may be nice, polite, Bible-quoting people but they were deceived while they were nice, polite and quoting scripture.

I know you have a lot of verses you get from I Cor 14 but remember Paul is rebuking a carnal church of a misuse of a doctrine to the point where he calls them children in malice. Why you think you can find anything positive there to support your tongues beats the fire out of me.

Don’t judge tongues by your experience – judge your experience by the Bible. Anybody can think they speak in tongues. I’ve even seen people “practicing†their tongues so they wouldn’t lose them! Please, people! The great men of God of old wouldn’t and didn’t mess with that stuff for a minute and God used any one of them more then 10,000 tongue speakers today.
But you say, “Yes, but I still know what I know and I speakin tongues and others do so that proves it!†Fine, base your doctrine on feelings and experience and ignore the plain teaching of scripture.

Again, one last time with feeling – UNTILL YOU UNDERSTAND THAT GOD DEALS WITH ISRAEL AS A NATION DIFFERENTLY THAN HE DOES WITH THE BODY OF CHRIST TODAY THEN YOU CAN FORGET UNDERSTANDING THE GIFTS!

 

[kwag_myers]

1) Define Speaking In Tongues for me.

Tongues can be a language known to man, as in Acts 2, or new (perhaps unknown) languages, as in Mark 16:17.

Since tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, you must receive Jesus as you Saviour first (that's when you receive the Holy Spirit). The key to speaking in tongues is to completely surrender to the Holy Spirit. If you read through Acts, you'll see that the only criteria is to believe in Jesus and be submissive to God's Word.

2) Provide Scripture to back you up.

Mark 16:17; Acts 2; 1 Corinthians 12:10 & 28; 13:1;

Here's two very important verses; 1 Corinthians 14:5 & 39

3) Do you believe in it?

Absolutely. It is vital to our prayer life.

4) If you do, or don't, is it for today?

Sure it is for today. We seldom know how to pray for God's will to be done. We may have a preconceived idea, but as my signature suggests, He doesn't do things our way. So, praying in tongues is how we pray His will into being without knowing what His will actually is.

This is especially important when praying for others. It's none of our business what God is doing in someone elses life. Christians often use prayer as an excuse to gossip; "I need to tell you what's going on with brother Jim, so you'll know how to pray". Again, we don't need to "know how to pray" if we pray in tongues.

In Acts 10:46 and 19:6 we see that tongues was a sign to believers, specifically to the apostles, of the Holy Spirit filling new believers.

Those who believe that tongues is not for today often quote 1 Corinthians 13:8. My question to that is, why would God remove a gift when it is so obvious that we still need it? Perhaps more now than ever. I believe that Paul is speaking of when we are in heaven. We will no longer need these gifts, but will continue in love.

 

[BJGrolle]

I must confess, I don't understand this whole speaking in tongues business. I know one language, therefore, I can only speak and pray in one language to my conscious knowledge.

If I were to suddenly cross paths with a Chinese person who didn't speak my language and I suddenly started spouting Chinese without any conscious prior knowledge of the Chinese language, yes, then I'd say it was God speaking through me, using me as a vessel.

But I don't expect that to happen. Why? Because of the Internet.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, I doubt that I will ever speak in tongues.

 

[AVBunyan]

Tongues were not for believers but for unbelievers – “not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: - I Cor. 14:22.

Can't be any clearer.

 

[Quath]

This is something that could easily be scientifically tested. Have someone speak in tongues and record them. Then have several people that interpret this to English. See if they come up with the same message.

If language communication was a gift from God, I do not think we would have such hotly debated Bible translation issues. If anything should be multilanguage, it should have been the Bible.

Quath

 

[Imagican]

AV,

Nice post. One of understanding instead of 'tradition'.

I would also like to add, that this 'new age' tongues speaking is only a little over one hundred years old. The tongues were for a time and for a purpose and that time and purpose has 'already been fulfilled'.

And, the proper use of tongues was established by Paul. If one doesn't heed to these uses, then they are performing something as incorrect as those that Paul had to rebuke in Corinth. ONE at a time, to UNBELIEVERS, NO MORE than three at a meeting, THERE MUST BE an interpreter, WOMEN ARE NOT to speak tongues in the Church.

I approached a 'tongues teaching' minister one time and pointed out that the use of tongues being displayed in his congregation were not Biblical tongues according to Paul. His answer to me, "You're right". I then asked him why I felt SO uncomfortable when the people of his congregation were speaking in these 'hellish' sounding voices'. His reply was that it was because I wasn't 'RAISED' this way.

So, there ya go folks. Tongues that are used now days are something 'different' than those spoken of in the Bible. The tongues of today are sometthing that is taught or learned. The Bible states that they are ONLY possible as the Spirit gives utterance. If this is true, then tongues are NOT something that can be learned, but rather something that is given by the Spirit.

The apostles had a monumental task ahead of them. These were ignorant Galileans, mostly fishermen and the like. Most likely these people could barely speak their own language properly so therefore needed an assistant to help them communicate with peoples of all different nations, (and languages). This was given through the Spirit by means of tongues.

Paul himself states that, I Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues MORE THAN YE ALL: 14:19 YET in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by by voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 14:20 Brethren, be NOT CHILDREN in understanding, howbeit in malice be ye children, but IN UNDERSTANDING be MEN.

Paul is stating that HE speaks tongues MORE than the entire body of believers that his epistle was directed at. YET, IN THE CHURCH, it was MORE beneficial that he speak FIVE WORDS OF TRUTH than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue.

Does it get ANY CLEARER than this? Also note the importance of the gifts and you will see that tongues are a gift that is last on the list. Paul also tells us that where there are tongues, [now], [yet, some time in the future], they shall cease.

As stated in the beginning of this post, the 'new age tongues' that are offered in certain churches now were started a little over a hundred years ago. The indication is that after the apostolic era, tongues were needed NO MORE. So, for 1800 years or so, they ceased to exist. Then, in the late 1800's, they were revived again? For what purpose. We live in a world FULL of Christians that speak EVERY language that exists. Tongues were for a sign and a season. The apostles were commanded to START the Church. Once this was accomplished, there was no longer a need for tongues. This was completed upon their deaths.

 

[AVBunyan]

I would also like to add, that this 'new age' tongues speaking is only a little over one hundred years old. The tongues were for a time and for a purpose and that time and purpose has 'already been fulfilled'.

And, the proper use of tongues was established by Paul. If one doesn't heed to these uses, then they are performing something as incorrect as those that Paul had to rebuke in Corinth. ONE at a time, to UNBELIEVERS, NO MORE than three at a meeting, THERE MUST BE an interpreter, WOMEN ARE NOT to speak tongues in the Church.

So, for 1800 years or so, they ceased to exist. Tongues were for a sign and a season. The apostles were commanded to START the Church. Once this was accomplished, there was no longer a need for tongues. This was completed upon their deaths.

Nice work Imagican - refreshing these days in the age of confusion and chaos. :wink:

God bless 8-)

 

[D46]

The gift of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, has absolutely nothing to do with how God dealt with or is/is not dealing with Israel. Israel is not even in the picture and not part of the quotient.

I approached a 'tongues teaching' minister one time and pointed out that the use of tongues being displayed in his congregation were not Biblical tongues according to Paul. His answer to me, "You're right". I then asked him why I felt SO uncomfortable when the people of his congregation were speaking in these 'hellish' sounding voices'. His reply was that it was because I wasn't 'RAISED' this way.

It's people like this (tongues teaching ministers) that have severely hurt and curtailed the perfect gift from God. I know of no other force that has blasphemed on this subject more than Trinity Brodcast Network. They have hurt the people of God more than any other organization I know of. No wonder people have raised eyebrows when this subject is brought up. They have done much evil, may the Lord reward them according to their works. They are not of God but of the lying aid of satan. It's another means of perverting God's word and his Holy promises to us all.

However, we are admonished to be careful we don't commit the "unpardonable sin" of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which is giving credit to satan the works of God. Some are getting close to bordering on this and I would be careful with my words. (Matthew 12:31-32)

Peter, in that great preaching in Acts 2:14-39) indicated that,"...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost for the promise is unto you,and unto your children, and ALL that are afar off...". Who was afar off-that's everyone in the future and includes us. You can find prophecy concerning tongues in Isaiah 28:11, "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people." The initial outpouring of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentacost tongues was given for a sign to unbelievers, true for those present thought the men were drunk. Peter quickly squelched that when he quoted Joel to them...Joel 2:28-29 (KJV) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Tongues was such a wonderful gift from God insomuch that Simon the sorcerer offered money to Peter and John that he may have that power as well. He was quickly rebuked by Peter and immediately repented of his offer. (Acts 8:24). The Holy Ghost has always be evidenced by the speaking in tongues. That's how one would know that he had received it.

Acts 19:2-6 (KJV) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

This was after Pentacost and from Pauls words one could obviously believe and not have the Holy Ghost. Too, after Paul laid hands on them they received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Paul and Jan Crouch and company weren't around then to foul up this momentous occasion, thank God, and it's only in this time that TV evangelist and those who profess Christ have corrupted the true words of God and his promises.

Consider the 10th Chapter of Acts where Peter and some of the jews wetnt to see Cornelius, a Roman centurion who believed in God but had not received the Holy Ghost. As Peter began preaching to him and those prestent, the wonderful works of God, the Holy Ghost fell on all those present. How did they know that they received the Holy Ghost? Acts 10:45 (KJV) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

As for the Corinthians, they were a bunch of carnal Christians to say the least. Paul chastened them on several problems to include some sleeping with their own mother!(1 Corinthians 5:1). They were spiritual babes, so to speak, without a lot of understanding and hence, Paul's need for writing them. They even came in attendance of the Lord's Supper eating like it was a banquet instead of for the intended purpose. Moreover, when they gathered together, many would start speaking in tongues as to show their gift that God had bestowed on them and many times disrupt the very reason for their assembling together. This is why Paul chastened them for this in the 14th Chapter of Corinthians. Many have taken this to believe that Paul was indicating that tongues should forevermore stop and that it wasn't for the church anymore. Nothing could be further from the truth. They were postulating an exalted position on the strength of being able to speak in an unintelligible language and he condemned this attitude and gave guidance on the matter.

Paul excpressly says NOT to forbid tongues in 1 Corinthians 14:2. Also, 1Corinthians 14:18-19... I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Had they not been so carnal with their gift God had given, Paul would not have written the 14th Chapter of 1 Corinthians. He was no more condemning tongues that he was prophecy, charity, or any other gift. Put another way, if God has a gift for me, I want it!

1Corinthians 14:39 (KJV) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Ro 8:9 (KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Henry]

What more misunderstood thing is there then this?

Tongues are merely languages, that is what the word means. When we say we speak in tongues it means in another language, one that is known and understood.

When people say they speak as did they on pentecost they are wrong, they all spoke in their own language and they where HEARD by the others in their own native tongues, that was the miracle.

As for this spirit tongues things, just emotionlism and nothing more.

Now I used to be a pentecostal and I used to "speak in tongues" it is nothing but emotions getting charge over us.

Oh, and let know one say that speaking in tongues is the proof you have been saved that is just lie.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Absolutely spot on, Henry!

Good, scripturally accurate posts from AV and Imagican also. I don't know whether today's version of 'tongues' is evil as such (what do some of you think?) but they are most definitely a sham.

 

[SputnikBoy]

3) Do you believe in it?

[kwag_myers]

Absolutely. It is vital to our prayer life.

Jabbering away in utterances that neither you nor God can understand is VITAL to our prayer life?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

This is something that could easily be scientifically tested. Have someone speak in tongues and record them. Then have several people that interpret this to English. See if they come up with the same message.

Examples of modern Pentecostal/Charismatic "tongues" have been analyzed by linguists and the conclusion was that the tongues were not legitimate languages, but an intentional or unintentional (sub-conscious) mix-up of words and syllables. In other words, it is gibberish. They are not identifiable languages and do not have anything in common, linguistically, with legitimate languages :bday:

 

[Guest]

The onenesss pentecostal movement says that the gift of tongues proves that the Holy Ghost has come on you and you are saved. If you have not spoken in tongues according to there doctrine, you are do not have the holy spirit.

The doctrine comes form the 3 or 4 times in Acts where people believed on Jesus and the apostles laid there hands on them and they spoke in tongues, this they say is the proof that you have the Holy Ghost.

I have been to one of there churches, and they are just crazy, as the pastor teaches and they sing, people just get up and speak in tongus everywhere, it is like chaos.

They have many other beliefs...
God is one, jesus is not the eternal son of god, but Jesus is the father.
must be baptized in the name of Jesus to be saved
Very legalstic
Women should wear skirts, but never pants or slacks.
Women should never cut their hair.
Women should not wear jewelry or makeup.
Men should only have short, conservative haircuts.
Men should not wear facial hair.
No one should own a TV.
No one should watch movies at a theater.
No one should wear shorts, or anything that would expose the legs.
No one should go swimming in a public place.

 

[Imagican]

Brad,

Long time no see. I figured this one would appeal to your senses.

D46, would you explain to all of us skeptics what 'true tongues' are? I mean I know what the scripture says that it is, but please, if you have a different definition, let's hear it.

You pointed out that those in Corinth were a bunch of whore mongering heathens that were veering off course, but why do you think that this part was 'kept' in God's Word for 'all time' if it didn't pertain to the 'rest' of us Gentiles?

Paul PLAINLY states that the tongues being used by those in Corinth were being used for 'self-edification' and that this was improper. He really couldn't tell them that tongues didn't exist for he himself was given this gift. But obviously the tongues being used in Corinth 'were NOT these tongues'.

And, the use of tongues is completely abandoned for 1800 years? You mean that the Holy Spirit was unobtainable by EVERYONE for this period of time? I mean, where did the tongues go? All the people of our past up until a hundred years ago were devoid of the Spirit? And then, all of a sudden after their centuries and centuries of non-existence they 'came back'. The world is a better place now or a hundred years ago than it was at the time of Christ?

Now, the good part. Explain to me exactly what you think tongues are. Gibberish that has been proven to differ from church to church yet is the same gibberish spoken by the members of each separately? In other words, it has been offered as proof, that member of each separate church speak in tongues that have almost the exact same sound. While people speaking in other churches demonstrate this exact same trait, their tongues are their 'own', different in nature and sound from other churches, but the same within their group. This is exactly why I offered what I was told by the pastor. This evidence is indicative of a gift that would have to be 'taught' to those that follow someone who 'teaches' tongues. Is it possible to 'teach' something that is offered, 'as the Spirit gives utterance'?

I understand what you offered concerning the 'fake tongues'. Now, tell us what 'real tongues' are?

 

[Julian Pyke]

My definition of tongues is:

I think that maybe in the Bible, there are many differnt meanings. I believe that there is of couse, tongues where everyone understands you. As said before, and you may not be English or speak it, but you hear it as your own language. However, si this gift available today? of course it is, btu we use man's way of interpreting. Have someone interpret what you are saying into that persons language.

The other form of tongues, is your spirit man speaking to God.


1 Corinthians 12:10 - To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Tongues in the Bible means Languages.

1 Corinthians 12:30 - Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Not really much to pay attention to there, except the do all interpret.


1 Corinthians 14:2 - For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Unknown Tongue... I believe this is your Spirit Man {Howbeit in the spirit} speaking to God. {for no man understandath him}


1 Corinthians 14:4 - He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Why is it used in a church some attend if we all speak the same language? Well, this is the Spirit talking to God. YOUR spirit man talking to God. He who speaks in tongues edifieth HIMSELF. However, what good is it if for yourself and no one else?

1 Corinthians 14:5 - I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:6 - Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Ok, so we see here that if there be someone speaking in tongues in the church, be sure someone is there to interpret. It also states he who interprets edifieth the church. The church is us. So, why have someone speak in tongues and then someone interpret? Why not just have someone give what God is saying. Well whoever is speaking in tongues is edifying himself. We want to edify each other. This is one way.

1 Corinthians 14:13 - Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.


1 Corinthians 14:14 - For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Again, it's your spirit praying, your understanding is unfruitful.

So, In conclusion. One form of tongues that is spoken about in the Bible, is your Spirit Praying to God. Don't speak in tongues in church unless someone is there to interpret.

Now, speaking in tongues where everyone understands you yet you don't speak their langauge, that is for the unbeliever. So you can witness to them.

 

[SputnikBoy]

My definition of tongues is:

I think that maybe in the Bible, there are many different meanings.

Any chance that you could supply us with the scriptures that provide us with these many different meanings?

I believe that there is of couse, tongues where everyone understands you. As said before, and you may not be English or speak it, but you hear it as your own language. However, is this gift available today? of course it is, btw we use man's way of interpreting. Have someone interpret what you are saying into that persons language.

If God wishes to make 'tongues' available for today then He can do so. However, it will be in accordance with its initial scriptural intent. We really do have to put everything into perspective as to what was occurring in those days and what is necessary for we today. Two thousand years have transpired and tongues have long since passed away. They served a purpose for a time.

The other form of tongues, is your spirit man speaking to God.

Hmmm ...I'm going to have to ask for scripture again.

1 Corinthians 12:10 - To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:[/i]

Tongues in the Bible means Languages.

That's correct.

1 Corinthians 12:30 - Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Not really much to pay attention to there, except the do all interpret.


1 Corinthians 14:2 - For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Unknown Tongue... I believe this is your Spirit Man {Howbeit in the spirit} speaking to God. {for no man understandath him}


1 Corinthians 14:4 - He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Why is it used in a church some attend if we all speak the same language? Well, this is the Spirit talking to God. YOUR spirit man talking to God. He who speaks in tongues edifieth HIMSELF. However, what good is it if for yourself and no one else?

1 Corinthians 14:5 - I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:6 - Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Ok, so we see here that if there be someone speaking in tongues in the church, be sure someone is there to interpret. It also states he who interprets edifieth the church. The church is us. So, why have someone speak in tongues and then someone interpret? Why not just have someone give what God is saying. Well whoever is speaking in tongues is edifying himself. We want to edify each other. This is one way.

1 Corinthians 14:13 - Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:14 - For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Again, it's your spirit praying, your understanding is unfruitful.

So, In conclusion. One form of tongues that is spoken about in the Bible, is your Spirit Praying to God. Don't speak in tongues in church unless someone is there to interpret.

Now, speaking in tongues where everyone understands you yet you don't speak their langauge, that is for the unbeliever. So you can witness to them.

I'm not really sure where you're coming from with the above but, again, if it isn't in accordance with the scriptures, then it isn't true and proper. Oh, and by the way, Paul was writing to the Church of Corinth and dealing with issues within that church. In regard to this issue ('tongues') he wasn't referring to we of today at all.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Brad,

Long time no see. I figured this one would appeal to your senses

Imagican, my old friend! (Khan to Kirk :wink

Now, the good part. Explain to me exactly what you think tongues are. Gibberish that has been proven to differ from church to church yet is the same gibberish spoken by the members of each separately? In other words, it has been offered as proof, that member of each separate church speak in tongues that have almost the exact same sound. While people speaking in other churches demonstrate this exact same trait, their tongues are their 'own', different in nature and sound from other churches, but the same within their group. This is exactly why I offered what I was told by the pastor. This evidence is indicative of a gift that would have to be 'taught' to those that follow someone who 'teaches' tongues. Is it possible to 'teach' something that is offered, 'as the Spirit gives utterance'?

They are emulating one another, although I believe it is subconscious in most cases. That is, I don't believe most are consciously making it up, though some will do that under pressure to be accepted as one of those who have "arrived" so to speak. I have many years experience in tongues speaking circles so I'm not just evaluating the issue from the outside.

I understand what you offered concerning the 'fake tongues'. Now, tell us what 'real tongues' are?

"Real tongues" would have to be supernatural. It would have to be a proveable supernatural manifestation. The way it is accepted today, there is no proof it is anything but babble. If we apply simple logic (you know, the type that Christians say is "of the devil" :evil: ) to the situation something becomes very clear. Two questions...

1) What is the simplest (supposed) miraculous "gift of the Spirit" to fake?

2) What (supposed) gift of the Spirit do we find the greatest manifestation of in churches which believe in the gifts of the Spirit?

What do you think is going on here? :wink:

 

[D46]

D46, would you explain to all of us skeptics what 'true tongues' are? I mean I know what the scripture says that it is, but please, if you have a different definition, let's hear it.

Well, if you know what the scriptures say, why be skeptical? I have no different definition than what's put forth in the Word. The problem arises when we start attempting to read something into the scriptures that are not there or we misconstrew them...and we all have at some time or other until God opens our understanding.

You pointed out that those in Corinth were a bunch of whore mongering heathens that were veering off course, but why do you think that this part was 'kept' in God's Word for 'all time' if it didn't pertain to the 'rest' of us Gentiles?

I just said they were a bunch of carnal Christians, which they were...I'm sure not all, but perhaps many were, hence Paul's reason for writing them. The Divine gift of tongues were indeed for "all that are afar off" according to Peter in Acts 2:39. I would think that included us Gentiles and know assuredely it does.

Acts 10:45-46 (KJV) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. How did the Jews know they received the Holy Ghost? "...for they heard them speak with toongues and magnify God."

And, the use of tongues is completely abandoned for 1800 years? You mean that the Holy Spirit was unobtainable by EVERYONE for this period of time? I mean, where did the tongues go? All the people of our past up until a hundred years ago were devoid of the Spirit? And then, all of a sudden after their centuries and centuries of non-existence they 'came back'. The world is a better place now or a hundred years ago than it was at the time of Christ?

Why do you think that? How do you know they were "abandoned"? Is God not the same yesterday, today and forever? I didn't say the Holy Ghost was unobtainable by everyone....you said that. Tongues were and are available to all that trust in God and willing to believe and receive. If someone has doubts about this spiritual gift and have been told by others that it's not of God, do you think they will earnestly seek to receive this gift? They will shun it just like anything else they don't understand or believe in and rest assured God will not bestow on anyone spiritual gifts if they don't want or believe in it. I don't believe for the past 1800 years this gift was not given. None of us can go back and check one way or the other so, I don't know why you believe that. The spirit of God has been around forever and I don't believe he would withhold a miraculous gift for centuries. It was a promise, it was prophesied, and it was given and is still being given to all that believe on him. If anyone doesn't desire it, then you won't receive it.

It is sad indeed that we have "tongue teaching ministries" or those that compel anyone to learn how to speak in tongues. That is straight from the pit and they are walking a razor sharp line of blaspheming the Spirit of God. It's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Man has always found fways to counterfeit and twist to their own good, the word of God (with the help of satan). Pope Leo X made the statement that "the fable of Christ has been most profitable to me". Any gift from God can be abused and questioned by the unlearned and I think many times that's why we don't see the nine spiritual gifts operating in the church today. Perhaps this is why you hear a difference in tongues operating in vaious churches today. If all have the same gift from God it stands to reason that most all will "sound" similar. We are individuals, however, and what I may say to you in French may sound entirely different that someone from Germany who has learned French saying the same thing. God's gift is the same but, humans are still individuals. Notwithstanding, there are churches that do practice the "teaching" of tongues and this, as I have said before, is NOT from God and there's no telling how it may sound. I've never attended a church or know of one personally that teach such things as I would run, not walk, out the door promptly if I knew that was what was going on.

I have seen little six year old girls receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with the scriptural evidence of speaking in tongues in a church service when the Spirit of God was moving and I'm quite sure she wasn't taught this by watching the Testimony of Belial Network (TBN). Age doesn't matter as God's gift can be and is given whether your eight or eighty-eight. It is for all for all time. True tongues, as you call it, is from God and it doesn't have to be taught. This gift is the same today as it was when the church was started in the Book of Acts and is the same as what Cornelius received. The Spirit of God overshadowed him upon Peters preaching and I'm sure he didn't receive instructions about it. Abused? It surely has been, and; I would not want to be in the shoes of those who mimic it, make fun of, or abuse it in any fashion. They are treading on thin ice.

There are two types of tongues in the Bible. One is the evidential tongues which is spoken when one received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. This tongue may be a language foreigh to the person speaking, but, could be understood by others native to that particular dialect. This was the case on the Day of Pentacost when men of every nation heard the hundred and twenty Jews speak in the native language of every person present. the other type of tongues the Bible teaches is a tongue of edification; no man understand this tongue. In 1 Corinthians 14:2, "...howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." This tongue, if spoken openly in a church service, must be interpreted. If there is not intrepreter after such a message is given, that person is instructed to keep silent and speak to himself and to God. That just means not to dominate a service with uninterpreted messages. That was the problem with the Corinthian church. People were exalting themselves on being able to speak a language no one knew-abusing the gift of God, if you will. Paul concludes the matter with, "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and inorder." 1 Corinthians 14:39-40.