Spiritual Gifts, Are They For Today?

[Doulos Iesou]

Introduction:

In this post I will be arguing for positive representation of the Spiritual Gifts continuing and available for the Church Body today. This then therefore is a denial of what is known as Cessationism, which asserts that the Gifts(at least in their miraculous form) ceased with the completion of Scripture and has not been used since the very early Church.

These will be the pillars of my argument:

1. The purpose of the gifts revealed through Scripture.
2. The Testimony of Scripture on if the gifts past away. (Does 1 Corinthians 13 teach that they have already?)
3. The Testimony of Scripture on their continuation.
4. Spiritual Gifts vs. Sola Scriptura. (Do the Spiritual Gifts invalidate the reformation affirmation of Sola Scriptura?)

The Purpose of the Gifts:

The first pillar of my argument appeals to the purpose of the Gifts, I believe that it is important to derive from Scripture what the purpose of these gifts are and then therefore determine whether their usefulness and applicability still is relevant.

For just as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of the body, although they are many, are one body, thus also Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and all were made to drink one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,†not because of this is it not a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body, not because of this is it not a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body just as he wanted. 19 And if they all were one member, where would the body be? 20 But now there are many members, but one body. 1 Co 12:12–20(LEB)

In this context, Paul had just described the variety of Spiritual gifts given by the same Holy Spirit who distributes the gifts as he wishes. These gifts included the miraculous gifts, tongues, prophecy and healing.

Paul now builds on that to explain how the Church operates as a whole body (unity) but as individual members (diversity), the same Spirit has distributed different gifts to the individuals of the body, but these gifts are to built up and edify the entire body as a whole.

Pursue love, and strive for spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God, because no one understands, but by the Spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people edification and encouragement and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I want you all to speak with tongues, but even more that you may prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks with tongues, unless he interprets, in order that the church may receive edification. 1 Co 14:1–5(LEB)

Here we find an entire God-Breathed and profitable chapter on Prophecy and Tongues and how it is to operate in the Church. Paul encourages us to pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts, especially Prophecy, which is of course one of the miraculous gifts.

This gift of prophecy is said to be greater than tongues as it edifies not only the individual but also the Church, unless of course someone offers an interpretation of the tongue.

In this way also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek for the edification of the church, in order that you may abound. 1 Co 14:12(LEB)

Paul continues on continuing to speak about the miraculous gifts, specifically to the Corinthian Church he says "since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek for the edification of the church." For what purpose? In order that you may "abound!"

Paul's reasoning here is this, since you are already zealous and active in the spiritual gifts (though they were unorganized and sometimes prideful about it), use it and seek for the edification of the Church with that zeal!

Perhaps this is why there is so much either disunity or lack of health in the Church today, because either, a) the spiritual gifts go completely neglected, or b) they do nothing but cause division, or c) made completely irrelevant. The Spiritual gifts were given to the body for the edification of the body and not to divide it... but rather to bring the body together in a kind of beautiful unity amisdst diversity.

For example, if you had a body that only had a right foot as an appendage how ugly would that body be? Would they be able to do anything? If we purposefully amputate our members from the body and neglect these gifts, we do a disservice to the overall edification and abounding of the Church.

Or has the edification and abounding of the Church become irrelevant past the 1st Century?

Have the Gifts Passed Away?:

I want to say as we move along, that this is in no way to be a complete handling of the subject. I have much more to say on each of these pillars but for the sake of brevity (sort of) I will only give a portion of my argument.

The primary text I will examine is 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 to see if the miraculous gifts have ended as indeed this text asserts that they will.

Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will pass away. If there are tongues, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will pass away. 1 Co 13:8(LEB)

From this verse as I previously mentioned the gifts will cease, and Paul has begun his argument. That Love which is of the utmost importance and had been neglected at the pursuit of the gifts, when he is meaning to say that love here is chief!

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but whenever the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 1 Co 13:9–10(LEB)

This section of the text is VITAL, how one interprets the Greek word τέλειος (perfect) may change their whole theology. I think it is important that we don't just grab a lexicon and say, here is the meaning, it is probably referring to the completed Canon of Scripture.

The question is, what does the context infer this word means. These gifts will in fact cease once this perfect has come, it is clear and we can agree exegetically on that point, but when is that?

I will provide my primary assertion at the conclusion of the exposition.

When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside the things of a child. 1 Co 13:11(LEB)

This again in keeping with the word perfect, which carries the meaning of something growing into it's completion. Paul uses the idea of when growing into maturity as a man, you put childish things behind you. The spiritual gifts mentioned here are referenced to being the childish things, but of course not in a wholly derogatory and negative sense, but simply because you're a man you move on to things pertaining to a man. Those things you did as a child weren't bad or wrong, just simply out dated now.

For now we see through a mirror ⌊indirectly⌋, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know completely, just as I have also been completely known. 1 Co 13:12(LEB)

The city of Corinth at this time was known for their metalic mirrors that reflected a distorted and dark figure, the word for "darkly" or "indirectly" literally means a riddle or an enigma. That the revelations we receive now are obscure and the means by which we see is distorted.

However, "then" the time this passage is referring to, we will know completely. This Greek word for "know completely," is ἐπιγινώσκω and it carries the meaning not only of a complete knowledge but that of a knowledge gleaned through experience.

As we see the intimate nature of the previous statement, "then face to face." This is cognates with Numbers 12:6 where God says that I will speak with Moses, mouth to mouth (or elsewhere face to face) and in clearness, not in riddles. AND HE WILL LOOK AT THE FORM OF YAHWEH.

This is indeed, I believe, describing our future relationship with God as Resurrected beings (grown to maturity and completion) where we will see God face to face and not dimly or as through a riddle. We will see our Lord Jesus and we will be like him, we will know fully AS we have been fully known.

 And now these three things remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Co 13:13(LEB)

Why then is Love the greatest? For Love never ends... the spiritual gifts will cease with the Resurrection and reunion of our Lord to his bride, the Church. What about faith and hope? Faith.. what will we need to trust God for once we are in the new creation? His every promise will have been fulfilled. What then will we have to hope for? Our every hope will have been realized at the revelation of the fullness of God. Love then, our destiny, will remain beyond all the spiritual gifts and we will enjoy the presence of God and the new creation unto the ages.

Continued...

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Testimony of Scriptures on the Continuation:

And it will be in the last days,’ God says,
‘I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters will prophesy,
and your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
18 And even on my male slaves and on my female slaves
I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. Ac 2:17–18(LEB)

Peter cites Joel 2:28-32 in his sermon on the Day of Pentecost, he does so in support of the display of tongues (coming this time in the form of differing languages), the Spirit falling on all the people there. This text denotes that during this time frame, indeed the one they had just entered into and assuredly the one we are still in, that miraculous gifts will be displayed in the young and old.. male and female.

Do not despise prophecies, 21 but examine all things; hold fast to what is good. 1 Th 5:20–21(LEB)

This is an important text for those who today despise prophecies, and one thing to note is the prophecies in the NT given by members of the Church do not work like OT prophets (I will take that up more later) but it is important to note that he says hold fast to what is good, and examine all things, this of course in reference to the prophecies being given. Prophecies therefore are not infallibly transmitted.

But strive for the greater gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:31(LEB)

Paul continues to admonish them again and again to strive for the greater gifts, such as prophecy, healing, words of knowledge and tongues. These admonishments are rendered irrelevant and indeed short sighted if we embrace cessationalism.

Indeed, it introduces a dangerous hermeutic. How often can we appeal to a cultural or historical concept to make a certain doctrine or teaching in the Bible no longer applicable. Some do this to sexual immorality, and homosexuality, they will appeal that these were specific instructions only to the Corinthian Church and thus not applicable as a moral principle at large.

So then, my brothers, desire to prophesy, and do not prevent speaking with tongues. 40 But let all things be done decently and according to proper procedure. 1 Co 14:39–40(LEB)

Cessationalists most assuredly violate this imperative command from Paul, DO NOT FORBID TONGUES. Yet, that is the very thing they forbid, statements like this would have indeed been confusing if the duration with which this gift lasted would soon have come to it's end. Paul, I believe, meant for the continued edification and abounding of the Church body and seeing that these gifts operate in the orderly and beautiful fashion that they ought to, so that this legacy be passed on to generation to generation (sadly I do not believe that was the case).

I believe that the the NT simply assumes that the spiritual gifts continue as they are mentioned consistently as an integral part of the function of the Body of Christ. To argue contrary, I believe is to leave much of Scripture unprofitable for teaching, and whole chapters left irrelevant and starving for that which once edified, but now for some reason is refused.

Spiritual Gifts vs. Sola Scriptura:

This particular point is presented by me in perhaps an either or kind of sense, but that is what I want to dispel in fact. I believe, that the miraculous gifts are for today.. because I believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA and not TRADITION as the ultimate authority on this matter. Frankly, I don't care what the greater history of the Church has believed (for a majority of topics). I do not accept the authority of the Pope, why? I find it no where in Scripture.. YET, most of the historical Church has affirmed the Pope's authority.

I believe that many Cessationalists are simply reacting in extreme to the extreme of those who do damage the sufficiency of Scripture with their "expression" of the spiritual gifts. We are to test all of these spiritual gifts and their expression against SCRIPTURE. Scripture you see, reigns supreme over the gifts and everything that is counter and contrary to Scripture is cast aside and all that corresponds and supports Scripture and edifies in tandem with the Word of God is held fast.

If Cessationalists would listen to more moderate positions on the matter like Wayne Grudem in his Systematic Theology and book "The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament Today," there wouldn't be so much division on this matter.

Conclusion:

I personally had a journey on the matter early on in my walk as a Christian. I was saved at a Pentecostal Church, and at which I still attend. I was highly skeptical of the miraculous gifts at first, but I didn't want to be ignorantly skeptical so I looked into the Cessationalist arguments and of course the arguments in favor of their continuation. I resolutely affirmed that whatever Scripture really taught, I would follow, even if it went against my home Church.

I was convinced through a thorough study of Scripture and indeed remain convinced that the gifts are for today. Not just because I walk in them myself and have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit and seen miraculous healing (a tumor disappearing before my eyes) but chiefly because of the consistent testimony of Scripture on the matter.

Those who oppose this teaching I believe are doing great harm to the body. They are literally quenching the Spirit by despising prophecy and forbidding tongues, the gifts God gave to edify are refused in most Churches today.

We ought to eagerly pursue these greater gifts, for the edification of others and not the exaltation of ourselves so that all God's Church may be blessed and abound in the good works that Jesus would have us walk in... even greater than HIS.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Butch5]

Testimony of Scriptures on the Continuation:

And it will be in the last days,’ God says,
‘I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters will prophesy,
and your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
18 And even on my male slaves and on my female slaves
I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. Ac 2:17–18(LEB)

Peter cites Joel 2:28-32 in his sermon on the Day of Pentecost, he does so in support of the display of tongues (coming this time in the form of differing languages), the Spirit falling on all the people there. This text denotes that during this time frame, indeed the one they had just entered into and assuredly the one we are still in, that miraculous gifts will be displayed in the young and old.. male and female.

Do not despise prophecies, 21 but examine all things; hold fast to what is good. 1 Th 5:20–21(LEB)

This is an important text for those who today despise prophecies, and one thing to note is the prophecies in the NT given by members of the Church do not work like OT prophets (I will take that up more later) but it is important to note that he says hold fast to what is good, and examine all things, this of course in reference to the prophecies being given. Prophecies therefore are not infallibly transmitted.

But strive for the greater gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:31(LEB)

Paul continues to admonish them again and again to strive for the greater gifts, such as prophecy, healing, words of knowledge and tongues. These admonishments are rendered irrelevant and indeed short sighted if we embrace cessationalism.

Indeed, it introduces a dangerous hermeutic. How often can we appeal to a cultural or historical concept to make a certain doctrine or teaching in the Bible no longer applicable. Some do this to sexual immorality, and homosexuality, they will appeal that these were specific instructions only to the Corinthian Church and thus not applicable as a moral principle at large.

So then, my brothers, desire to prophesy, and do not prevent speaking with tongues. 40 But let all things be done decently and according to proper procedure. 1 Co 14:39–40(LEB)

Cessationalists most assuredly violate this imperative command from Paul, DO NOT FORBID TONGUES. Yet, that is the very thing they forbid, statements like this would have indeed been confusing if the duration with which this gift lasted would soon have come to it's end. Paul, I believe, meant for the continued edification and abounding of the Church body and seeing that these gifts operate in the orderly and beautiful fashion that they ought to, so that this legacy be passed on to generation to generation (sadly I do not believe that was the case).

I believe that the the NT simply assumes that the spiritual gifts continue as they are mentioned consistently as an integral part of the function of the Body of Christ. To argue contrary, I believe is to leave much of Scripture unprofitable for teaching, and whole chapters left irrelevant and starving for that which once edified, but now for some reason is refused.

Spiritual Gifts vs. Sola Scriptura:

This particular point is presented by me in perhaps an either or kind of sense, but that is what I want to dispel in fact. I believe, that the miraculous gifts are for today.. because I believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA and not TRADITION as the ultimate authority on this matter. Frankly, I don't care what the greater history of the Church has believed (for a majority of topics). I do not accept the authority of the Pope, why? I find it no where in Scripture.. YET, most of the historical Church has affirmed the Pope's authority.

I believe that many Cessationalists are simply reacting in extreme to the extreme of those who do damage the sufficiency of Scripture with their "expression" of the spiritual gifts. We are to test all of these spiritual gifts and their expression against SCRIPTURE. Scripture you see, reigns supreme over the gifts and everything that is counter and contrary to Scripture is cast aside and all that corresponds and supports Scripture and edifies in tandem with the Word of God is held fast.

If Cessationalists would listen to more moderate positions on the matter like Wayne Grudem in his Systematic Theology and book "The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament Today," there wouldn't be so much division on this matter.

Conclusion:

I personally had a journey on the matter early on in my walk as a Christian. I was saved at a Pentecostal Church, and at which I still attend. I was highly skeptical of the miraculous gifts at first, but I didn't want to be ignorantly skeptical so I looked into the Cessationalist arguments and of course the arguments in favor of their continuation. I resolutely affirmed that whatever Scripture really taught, I would follow, even if it went against my home Church.

I was convinced through a thorough study of Scripture and indeed remain convinced that the gifts are for today. Not just because I walk in them myself and have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit and seen miraculous healing (a tumor disappearing before my eyes) but chiefly because of the consistent testimony of Scripture on the matter.

Those who oppose this teaching I believe are doing great harm to the body. They are literally quenching the Spirit by despising prophecy and forbidding tongues, the gifts God gave to edify are refused in most Churches today.

We ought to eagerly pursue these greater gifts, for the edification of others and not the exaltation of ourselves so that all God's Church may be blessed and abound in the good works that Jesus would have us walk in... even greater than HIS.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

Hi Doulos,

I believe the gifts have ceased. That's not to say that God doesn't do miracles, He does, however, I don't see the miraculous gifts continuing today. The Scriptures say there were to confirm the apostles ministry. If you're interested in my take on the issue it can be found here, Spiritual Gifts and Their Purpose. It's to long to post here. It's not yet been proofed either.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi Doulos,

I believe the gifts have ceased. That's not to say that God doesn't do miracles, He does, however, I don't see the miraculous gifts continuing today. The Scriptures say there were to confirm the apostles ministry. If you're interested in my take on the issue it can be found here, Spiritual Gifts and Their Purpose. It's to long to post here. It's not yet been proofed either.

I have a problem with this as an exclusive purpose. While I do think that the Apostles excelled in the Spiritual gifts and that was a testament to their ministry having the authority of God. It was clearly not only the Apostles who had these miraculous gifts as Paul admonishes the lay members of the Corinthian Churches to seek after the GREATER gifts, and to eagerly pursue to prophesy.

It would then be accurate to say that the purposes of the gifts were 1) to establish the authority of the apostles through the display of many miraculous signs, and 2) to edify and build up the Church to abound in the good works of the Lord, to function properly as a whole body.

Do you care to specifically address any of my arguments here as you disagree?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Hi Doulos,

I believe the gifts have ceased. That's not to say that God doesn't do miracles, He does, however, I don't see the miraculous gifts continuing today. The Scriptures say there were to confirm the apostles ministry. If you're interested in my take on the issue it can be found here, Spiritual Gifts and Their Purpose. It's to long to post here. It's not yet been proofed either.

I have a problem with this as an exclusive purpose. While I do think that the Apostles excelled in the Spiritual gifts and that was a testament to their ministry having the authority of God. It was clearly not only the Apostles who had these miraculous gifts as Paul admonishes the lay members of the Corinthian Churches to seek after the GREATER gifts, and to eagerly pursue to prophesy.

It would then be accurate to say that the purposes of the gifts were 1) to establish the authority of the apostles through the display of many miraculous signs, and 2) to edify and build up the Church to abound in the good works of the Lord, to function properly as a whole body.

Do you care to specifically address any of my arguments here as you disagree?

I know this post wasn't directed toward me, but I wanted to chime in. You laid out a lot in the first two posts. The thing is, I have yet to accept that any incident of "speaking in tongues" that I have witnessed is real. All the scripture in the world can't change my mind on this. Why? Because after all, scripture says this:

"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." -Matthew 17:20


If you're gullible enough to hear someone utter jibberish and believe that is the doing of the Holy Spirit, I would say your faith is much more than a mustard seed. Yet, nobody who believes in "speaking in tongues" is moving mountains.

Scripture also talks about many miracles. It talks about the parting of seas, among many others. That doesn't mean that it is happening today. "Speaking in tongues" is the most common "miracle" because it is easy to fake.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I know this post wasn't directed toward me, but I wanted to chime in. You laid out a lot in the first two posts. The thing is, I have yet to accept that any incident of "speaking in tongues" that I have witnessed is real.

By what standard? What are you holding these instances to, your own subjective opinion which already begins at skepticism?

This is the issue I have with your argument so far, it doesn't come to the Bible and ask, "are the gifts still around, and if so what do they look like and how are they used?" Your argument first assumes that that, 1) the gifts aren't around anymore, 2) that those who speak in tongues are actively faking it.

I speak in tongues.. does that mean in some of my most intimate times with the Lord I am at my core a hypocrite and a liar? You see I don't base my own experiences with the gifts as the foundation of my argument but SCRIPTURE is the foundation.

All the scripture in the world can't change my mind on this. Why? Because after all, scripture says this:

"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." -Matthew 17:20

This is a very odd and dangerous statement, that because of this Scripture which doesn't reference necessarily anything in regards to the Miraculous gifts listed later, you reject countless passages which admonish you and I not to forbid these gifts...

Let me ask you a question, is it the faith that moves the mountain? Or the object of the faith?

The mustard seed you see was to the Jews the smallest known seed, and what is happening here is the disciples came back to Jesus frustrated because they could not cast out a demon (not listed as a miraculous gift btw), and he said that what was lacking was their faith. This means that they didn't really have faith that God was going to do anything it seemed, as even this little bit of faith has tremendous power. Why? Because that faith draws on the almighty God who could easily cast a mountain into the sea with his power.

Should we go casting mountains into the ocean? No! It is an example to describe the latter truth spoken in the verse, "and nothing shall be impossible for you." If they have faith...

Tell me virginshallconceive, what do you have faith that God is able to accomplish? Anything, do you have faith that he can save you, but not the faith that when we ask we shall receive.. Of course you don't receive, because you're being double-minded and you have doubt in your heart and skepticism at the power of God.

At the finality of Jesus parable about prayer, the parable of the unjust judge, Jesus says these words:

Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, then will he find faith on earth? (Lk 18:8).

Is anyone going to believe the power that they have through me by praying? Says Jesus.. Whose going to believe this anymore.. that literally anything is possible with God.. how could people be so gullible.. This must have only meant for the disciples right, maybe they received some special powers? Yet, this reference in Luke 18:8 is implying his second coming at the Resurrection...

If you're gullible enough to hear someone utter jibberish and believe that is the doing of the Holy Spirit, I would say your faith is much more than a mustard seed. Yet, nobody who believes in "speaking in tongues" is moving mountains.

You completely misunderstand that verse, this isn't an active command to go and move mountains.. it's a declaration that if they truly have faith, nothing will be impossible with them. Do you deny this Scripture as well?

Therefore, if the whole church comes together at the same time and all speak with tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? (1 Co 14:23).

Paul here is speaking of if the entire congregation speaks in tongues together, and that if this were the case, wouldn't outsiders and unbelievers enter and think, "these Christians are out of their minds.. look at the nonsense that is coming out of their mouths.. what jibberish."

What is sad about this verse, that it is not just outsiders and unbelievers who would think that now, but people who names Jesus as their Lord. Cessationists have the same reaction Paul says outsiders and unbelievers would have.

Scripture also talks about many miracles. It talks about the parting of seas, among many others. That doesn't mean that it is happening today.

Is it still possible for God to part the seas today?

You don't get it... it's the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who is the one who has the power to part the seas and indeed is the one who sends the Spirit to impart the spiritual gifts, such as tongues, prophecy and words of wisdom. Did God quit the miracle business? Is a good chunk of the Bible now made completely irrelevant? Or perhaps.. the majority of Christianity (especially in America) stopped BELIEVING that God is 1) able to do these things, and 2) WILLING to do these things. Do you doubt every miracle reported since the time of Jesus, did God go on vacation? The glory of the new Covenant would be greater!!! and the Spirit would indwell the Church to... help them with their pornography addiction?

No, to give us power to be his WITNESSES in the world.

"Speaking in tongues" is the most common "miracle" because it is easy to fake.

From this post we have established these things about your argument.

1. You actively and knowingly ignore Scripture on the matter, seemingly because of a misunderstood verse, which you also don't believe surprisingly enough.
2. That everyone who claims to speak in tongues, such as myself is a faker and a liar.
3. Those who believe in such things are gullible enough to think that those speaking jibberish (speaking in tongues) are doing so by the Holy Spirit.

If you would preference your subjective opinion against Scripture then there is nothing left for us to discuss. What is important to me, as I believe in Sola Scriptura.. is WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURES ACTUALLY SAY. Even if it seems impossible.. I know that MY GOD can do all things, and he is a faithful and loving Father who will of course give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.

Blessings in Christ,
Servant of Jesus

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Cessationists have the same reaction Paul says outsiders and unbelievers would have.

That is, if Paul was speaking about these days.

2. That everyone who claims to speak in tongues, such as myself is a faker and a liar.

Did God quit the miracle business?

If you are an older person who has been working themselves up in a frenzy of "tongue speaking" for years and years, I feel that there is no urgency for you to change your ways at this point.

But, I come to shed light on this subject for the benefit of our children. Children have their whole lives ahead of them. To mislead them down a path of false promises and foolery is unacceptable. They need to be taught the tools of how to weed out crazy claims that can't possibly be true. It will help them through life with all of the different types of people that they will encounter.




Listen up, kids.

If "speaking in tongues" was a valid miracle, mainstream science would have confirmed it by now, or the leading scientists would admit that it is a strange phenomenon that is still up in the air of being true or not. This phenomenon would be the main, most exciting exploration of science. Every single scientific finding would be front page news. Web pages concerning glossolalia would have the most hits by far.

The intense motive for exploring this stuff would automatically be built in to the circumstance. On one end, there would be scientists who truly would like to come to a positive conclusion for the sole purpose of glorifying God. On the other end, there would be selfish scientists vigorously trying to claim that Nobel Prize so that everyone would pat them on the back. There would be a whole spectrum of motives from one end to the other. But what do we find instead? The easy dismissal of such claims, with virtually nobody even attempting to tap that open "avenue to success".

Another easy tell is how the "tongue speakers" get offended when called out by the skeptics.

If the Holy Spirit physically moved my mouth, and I spoke in tongues, I would be dumbfounded. I could never possibly have a bad day again, except for worrying about people's salvation after this extremely short life. Worry about work? No way. Worry about bills? Not a chance. I wouldn't even be on the internet. There would be plenty of people for me to testify to in person. If they didn't believe, I could understand where they are coming from, and I wouldn't care whether they believed in my speaking in tongues or not. After all, I've been down that well-reasoned road of disbelief. I would just have to accept that the Holy Spirit chose to manifest His glory through me. What a wonderful gift!

So, even the defenders, in their defense, confirm the valid suspicion.

Thank God for the internet, where false claims are constantly debunked. This knowledge will spread and eventually reach even the unfortunate, secluded children by word of mouth. The sad thing is that many of these children would have already wasted much of their life down the wrong path.

Or, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm crazy.

Don't take my word for it. Think for yourself.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That is, if Paul was speaking about these days.

Joel and Peter said that in the last days we would be using the miraculous gifts, have the last days ended and are we past the last days?

Also, what exegetical reason do you have to establish that he was not referring to these days? Why did he labor to teach so thoroughly a topic which was soon to become completely irrelevant?

If you are an older person who has been working themselves up in a frenzy of "tongue speaking" for years and years, I feel that there is no urgency for you to change your ways at this point.

"working themselves in a frenzy of "tongue speaking?" Is that what you imagine with someone speaking in tongues? That they have just completely lost their minds and some spirit seems to have taken over their body to repeat gibberish over and over again? Maybe that's the case with a more extreme bunch, but that is not what it actually looks like, of course it helps your argument to build this straw-man caricature, but those interested in the truth turn to the Word for discernment.

But, I come to shed light on this subject for the benefit of our children. Children have their whole lives ahead of them. To mislead them down a path of false promises and foolery is unacceptable.

You mean these false promises?

“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. Acts 2:17-18

Notice how in NONE of your comments thus far you have addressed the actual Scriptural teachings on the subject. You're arguing against tongues just like a secular skeptic would.

They need to be taught the tools of how to weed out crazy claims that can't possibly be true.

Yes they need to be taught on how the Bible is not true.. and that donkeys can't really talk... there are no invisible armies of God... there never was an Adam and Eve...

You're teaching them to DOUBT the Biblical revelation, and are reacting in the extreme to overly enthusiastic displays of the gifts which I grant may in fact be false representations. My Church actually walks in the gifts as the Bible teaches and it is a beautiful thing, not a crazy impossible thing, but miracles meant to edify and build faith and love in the congregation. No one comes to our Church and thinks we're a bunch of lunatics, that's because we do so orderly and don't speak in tongues in public unless there is an interpretation given, which there sometimes is.

It will help them through life with all of the different types of people that they will encounter.

It will help them be skeptical of any kind of Christianity that has some kind of power to it.

holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 2 Timothy 3:5

I will teach them the Bible, God's truth.

If "speaking in tongues" was a valid miracle, mainstream science would have confirmed it by now, or the leading scientists would admit that it is a strange phenomenon that is still up in the air of being true or not. This phenomenon would be the main, most exciting exploration of science. Every single scientific finding would be front page news. Web pages concerning glossolalia would have the most hits by far.

The intense motive for exploring this stuff would automatically be built in to the circumstance. On one end, there would be scientists who truly would like to come to a positive conclusion for the sole purpose of glorifying God. On the other end, there would be selfish scientists vigorously trying to claim that Nobel Prize so that everyone would pat them on the back. There would be a whole spectrum of motives from one end to the other. But what do we find instead? The easy dismissal of such claims, with virtually nobody even attempting to tap that open "avenue to success".

Do you have any scientific evidence that argues against it, any citations?

How about this virginshallconceive... If God is real, how come mainstream science hasn't affirmed his existence? If God were real, there would be countless articles from mainstream science displaying the discoveries right? There would be men lining up to get Nobel Peace Prizes right?

Scripture, rather teaches that fallen man suppresses the truth about God in unrighteous and ungodliness, Romans 1 declares that God's existence is self-evident and plain in what he has made. Why then do so many deny it? Was Paul wrong when he said these things? Or from a Biblical stand point can we not trust the opinions of those who reject God on matters of God.

Another easy tell is how the "tongue speakers" get offended when called out by the skeptics.

Another easy tell is that people who believe in God get offended when called out by skeptics....

Don't you see how your argumentation is EXACTLY like that of a secularist skeptic, this a non-argument except it is bringing out your true colors.

If the Holy Spirit physically moved my mouth, and I spoke in tongues, I would be dumbfounded.

This again demonstrates your ignorance on the subject, you believe that it causes you to lose control of your body and that is not the case.

and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 1 Corinthians 14:32(ESV)

Paul is responding to some who may have been acting like some of the immature and rowdy Charismatics today who kind of "lose control" and prophesy and speak in tongues without restraint. Paul clarifies in response to this that the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets, meaning that they are in control of themselves and are able to restrain disorderly behavior. Not to mention every other teaching on tongues presupposes that the person is able to control when to do it and when not to.

I could never possibly have a bad day again, except for worrying about people's salvation after this extremely short life. Worry about work? No way. Worry about bills? Not a chance. I wouldn't even be on the internet. There would be plenty of people for me to testify to in person. If they didn't believe, I could understand where they are coming from, and I wouldn't care whether they believed in my speaking in tongues or not. After all, I've been down that well-reasoned road of disbelief. I would just have to accept that the Holy Spirit chose to manifest His glory through me. What a wonderful gift!

If tongues functioned like you say... you wouldn't worry about other people's salvation? Or really anything else? How is this a rational argument, is this how you hope to convince the children?

According to Scripture, unbelievers would think you're out of your mind (kind of the way you think about me... hmmm).

Thank God for the internet, where false claims are constantly debunked.

Amen, thank God for the internet where people can read your comments and mine and compare them with Scripture to see who is speaking the truth.

This knowledge will spread and eventually reach even the unfortunate, secluded children by word of mouth. The sad thing is that many of these children would have already wasted much of their life down the wrong path.

Yes, following Jesus and believing that the Father still gives good gifts today is a life wasted.. Pretty soon secular skepticism and popular science will reign supreme right?

"When the Son of Man comes.. will he find faith on the Earth?"

He certainly was speaking of our day.

Or, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm crazy.

I don't think you're crazy, I just think you're demonstrably wrong.

Don't take my word for it. Think for yourself.

Yes, all of the Christians here can examine both of your statements, and by the great pillar of truth.. the Scriptures our words will be tested against.

As you openly denied Scripture in your first post:

All the scripture in the world can't change my mind on this.

I think it's plain to see and differentiate between the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Blessings to you and may God reveal his truth that he indeed still gives good gifts today to his Church,
Servant of Jesus

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Don't take my word for it. Think for yourself.

Yes, all of the Christians here can examine both of your statements, and by the great pillar of truth.. the Scriptures our words will be tested against.

Well, if your statement is convincing enough, all of the readers will have the opportunity to truly speak in tongues.

Blessings to you and may God reveal his truth that he indeed still gives good gifts today to his Church,
Servant of Jesus

Blessings to you as well.

Doulos, I think that we might just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I still stand firmly by every speck of what I said.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Well, if your statement is convincing enough, all of the readers will have the opportunity to truly speak in tongues.

Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:27-31(ESV)

The grammatical structure of the sentences in the Greek imply a negative answer to all of these questions, the adverb μὴ (not) is not reflected in the English, but you might as well say no after every question in your mind as you read it.

So no, I do not believe every Christian should and can speak in tongues, but that God has appointed differing gifts to be apportioned by the Spirit to the Church, yet in such a way that is not irresistible and involves our pursuit as is implied in v.31.

Blessings to you as well.

Doulos, I think that we might just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I still stand firmly by every speck of what I said.

Indeed, I cannot reject not only what I have experienced, but what is crystal clear in the Word of God.

Blessings to you,
Servant of Jesus

 

[Butch5]

Hi Doulos,

I believe the gifts have ceased. That's not to say that God doesn't do miracles, He does, however, I don't see the miraculous gifts continuing today. The Scriptures say there were to confirm the apostles ministry. If you're interested in my take on the issue it can be found here, Spiritual Gifts and Their Purpose. It's to long to post here. It's not yet been proofed either.

I have a problem with this as an exclusive purpose. While I do think that the Apostles excelled in the Spiritual gifts and that was a testament to their ministry having the authority of God. It was clearly not only the Apostles who had these miraculous gifts as Paul admonishes the lay members of the Corinthian Churches to seek after the GREATER gifts, and to eagerly pursue to prophesy.

It would then be accurate to say that the purposes of the gifts were 1) to establish the authority of the apostles through the display of many miraculous signs, and 2) to edify and build up the Church to abound in the good works of the Lord, to function properly as a whole body.

Do you care to specifically address any of my arguments here as you disagree?

Hi Doulos,

I think there are a few things that we need to keep in mind. In the NT every time we see the Spirit bestowed it is in the presence of an apostle. The Spirit was given by the laying on of the apostles hands or at least in there presence. This can be seen in Acts 8 where Philip preached, the Samaritans believed but they didn't receive the Spirit until the Apostles came from Jerusalem. Also, if you look at Romans 12 you'll find that the only supernatural gift listed in the list of gifts is prophecy, which likely belonged to the person who founded the church. contrast that with the church at Corinth which was started by Paul, he said they came behind in no gift. The gifts did edify the church however, their prophesied purpose was as a sign of judgment against Israel, particularly the leadership.

11 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. (Isa 8:11-18 KJV)


Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
4 And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
29 This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working. (Isa 28:1-29 KJV)

 

[Free]

There simply is no biblical basis to believe that the gifts have ceased.

 

[Asyncritus]

I have my doubts, chiefly because of the sort of arguments Butch5 puts forward.

God does not change, and healings in the OT are very few and far between.

Jesus Himself, and the apostles to whom He gave those powers were able to perform any number and kind of miracles in the most real sense of the word.

The healings, for example, were all instantaneous. 'Take up your bed and walk' was the command, and the man got up and walked, in fact went out leaping and jumping everywhere, in public view, not in some revivalist tent somewhere.

Peter's shadow was efficacious. The hem of Jesus' garment was efficacious. The word spoken at a great distance was efficacious. Jesus' touch healed. Peter and Paul's touch likewise. They raised the dead in public.

None of the healings creates the slightest impression that it took any time to become real. Yet we have the 'evangelists' cranking up the emotional excitement with hymn singing, clapping of hands, sundry calls to come forward, assistants trained to aid the 'healing process', and heaven alone knows what else.

People take 'Courses in Miracles'! As if the spirit of God needs to be taught what to do!

I'm skeptical.

And then we have innumerable non-religious healers, who do marvellousthings, or so it is claimed. Is Lourdes genuine? I wouldn't know - but if it is, then what reply can one make about those healings that are claimed to happen there?

And how about this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ives-200k-spiritual-healers-NHS-patients.html ?

And this: http://raybrownhealing.com/

http://www.harryedwardshealingsanctuary.org.uk/healing.html

A google search will show dozens of such healers, places and individuals. One of the most remarkable claims I have ever heard is that of a yogi, swami Ramdev, who has apparently healed thousands at his ashram in India, and regularly conducts sessions with over 500 people attending at a time in the UK and all over the world.

He has actually published illustrative figures, showing the measurable and measured biochemical changes that have taken place in his patients.

All of which leaves me with the gravest doubts about claims of possession of the Holy Spirit 'to heal'.

How does one distinguish between the healers? Is it possible to do so? Are they all charlatans and frauds - and do their healings really happen - despite the fact that their connection with Christianity is either non-existent or tenuous at best?

And if the healings really happen, or at least a percentage of them do, then to what should we attribute them?

It's a perplexing subject, without any definitive answers possible.

I have often thought that if these Christian 'healers' really possess the power of God's Spirit, then why aren't they out on the streets and in the hospitals and hospices everywhere, healing people in their thousands, as Jesus clearly did?

Why are they so conspicuous by their absence?

If anyone has an answer, I'd like to hear it.

 

[Sparkey]

I'm not a big fan of bumpersticker theology. Neither am I a big fan of proof texting. But today I did read a bumpersticker and smiled. It addressed something that I think may be worth considering. We are to learn to number our days, are we not? Psalm 90:12, right? But that wasn't on the bumpersticker, that's just me trying to be all Berean about what I read on that sticker. Here's what it said:

Some plan on waiting until 11:00 pm, the "eleventh hour," to repent.

But of those who do many may die at 10:30 pm.

So it seemed okay in my sight. Bumpersticker theology aside. Now to the issue of "proof texting". Wiki may be consulted. I'm not a big fan of Wiki because I'm one of the contributing editors to Wiki and it's easy enough for anybody, even one like me, to enter there and make the "right" kind of change to things. Still, it is very informative although it does lack the rigor and authority of the "more sure word of Prophecy," which is the Bible (in my opinion). Still, this is what WIKI says about that:

Prooftexting (sometimes "proof-texting" or "proof texting") is the practice of using isolated quotations from a document to establish a proposition. Using discrete quotations is generally seen as decontextualised. Critics note that such quotes may not accurately reflect the original intent of the author.

This is essentially what I hear stated in the OP when speaking about exegesis. That is the process of taking out what we find in Scripture. Eisegesis describes the flow that goes in the opposite direction similar to a river backing up because of a high tide - that of putting into what is being read a meaning that is not already there. There are indeed 'secrets' waiting to be found and revealed to those who seek, ask and pray. Here is one, I paraphrase, but you will recognize, "No man may leave his father or his mother or [others]... except that he will be rewarded..." So is this a 'secret' or is it a proclamation? I affirm it is both.

I resolutely affirmed that whatever Scripture really taught, I would follow, even if it went against my home Church.

That's the working of the Holy Spirit, right there. Well, that's what I say, anyway.

But what about those who come and would say, "Nobody is tossing mountains around, are they?" I think there will be a time when the heathen will wish for such power. "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" and they cry to the mountains to cover them, right? That's where the bumpersticker theology and the 10:30 pm time comes in and that's where my prayer enters the room:

No! Not so, Lord. Let it not be. You will is known and Your will and purpose abides with us in love even here and even now. You are not willing that any shall perish and are not delaying, as some count it, but Your hand is where we find ourselves and we know that no thief may break in and snatch from You, O King of kings. ​

The healings, for example, were all instantaneous. 'Take up your bed and walk' was the command, and the man got up and walked, in fact went out leaping and jumping everywhere, in public view, not in some revivalist tent somewhere.

Peter's shadow was efficacious. The hem of Jesus' garment was efficacious. The word spoken at a great distance was efficacious. Jesus' touch healed. Peter and Paul's touch likewise. They raised the dead in public.

"The effective fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." He prayed that rain would stop. And it did. He prayed again that the rain would fall. And it did.

Do you not know, have you not heard? The former rain is not the greater rain. The last shall shall be greater than the first. The later rain is the rain that falls just before the Feast that is soon coming.

View attachment 3151

I am not able to declare with Paul, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than ye all." I have been to sites (that I will not mention here because they deal with de-converting Christians and debunking Christianity as well as the subject under discussion here) and I have read some very revealing anecdotes (testimonies that I consider true) dealing with real issues involved with and surrounding 'fake tongues'. So I do not feel threatened by those who wish to remain skeptical.

Still, if and when it comes time for me to speak and to throw more than just the mountains of dogma that I find into the sea, it is also my prayer that it isn't 11:00 pm but instead it is at most 10:29 pm. Of course if such a thing were to happen, nobody would say, "Hey! Did you see what that tiny bird did? It squawked and that mountain jumped smack dab into the sea." No. They will praise God for what He has done, or they will be too involved crying out to the mountain to fall on them and hide them.

Wrath of the Lamb? Yep, that's what it said. I didn't make that part up.

Cordially,
Sparrow

 

[Deborah13]

Yet, nobody who believes in "speaking in tongues" is moving mountains.

Well if Jesus says one can move mountains as in Matt. 17:20, then that just tells us that it takes less than a grain of mustard to operate in the gifts.
And also that to believe in faith for anything takes less the the mustard seed, as I don't see anyone moving, literal mountains.

 

[Deborah13]

So, even the defenders, in their defense, confirm the valid suspicion.

Hmm....so those who defend Gospel - salvation, confirm the valid suspicion of the unbeliever that He did not rise from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father? The unbeliever believes that his suspicion is valid.

working themselves up in a frenzy of "tongue speaking

If the Holy Spirit physically moved my mouth

These two statements clearly show that you have no idea as to how tongues work or used correctly.

The Pharisees denied the miracles that Jesus did, even to saying that He was doing them by the power of satan. They denied He was the Messiah rather than seeking God and searching the Scriptures.
Your arguments are not valid. Only the Scriptures tell the Truth of the argument.

 

[Obadiah]

It amazes me the polarization and division there is. Reminds me of the old saying: "There's three sides to everything. My side, your side, and the truth somewhere in between."

There seem to be so many on one hand that just blindly believe and vehemently defend every possible instance of claimed miracles that can be found no matter how ridiculously fake or how unscripturaly they are carried out, and on the other hand those who deny that God will do anything at all in this world and this life for us, no matter how obvious it is that God is the only one who could have done it. Even after years of watching, it still surprises me how very, very few Christians are willing to use their God given brain and God given common sense to look at what is happening around them, compare it to God's word, and decide if it is something truly from God or something made up by someone just for his own gain. The only thing that matters is proving yourself right, even moreso than being right itself!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I have my doubts, chiefly because of the sort of arguments Butch5 puts forward.

God does not change, and healings in the OT are very few and far between.

Hi Asyncritus,

I have to disagree with you on this point, though I of course agree that God doesn't change.

And he said, “If you carefully listen to the voice of Yahweh your God and you do what is right in his eyes and give heed to his commands and you keep all his rules, then I will not bring about on you any of the diseases that I brought about on Egypt, because I am Yahweh your healer. (Ex 15:26).

God has always been a healer!

Bless Yahweh, O my soul,
and do not forget all his benefits:
3 who forgives all your iniquity,
who heals all your diseases, (Ps 103:2–3).

Jesus Himself, and the apostles to whom He gave those powers were able to perform any number and kind of miracles in the most real sense of the word.

The healings, for example, were all instantaneous. 'Take up your bed and walk' was the command, and the man got up and walked, in fact went out leaping and jumping everywhere, in public view, not in some revivalist tent somewhere.

Peter's shadow was efficacious. The hem of Jesus' garment was efficacious. The word spoken at a great distance was efficacious. Jesus' touch healed. Peter and Paul's touch likewise. They raised the dead in public.

A lot of people simply stop at their authority being validated when it comes to their healing. However, how do you think this concept relates to the coming of the Kingdom of God, that God has entered into human history to restore and heal creation?

None of the healings creates the slightest impression that it took any time to become real. Yet we have the 'evangelists' cranking up the emotional excitement with hymn singing, clapping of hands, sundry calls to come forward, assistants trained to aid the 'healing process', and heaven alone knows what else.

People take 'Courses in Miracles'! As if the spirit of God needs to be taught what to do!

I'm skeptical.

I'm skeptical of people like that too, but we can't react in the extreme against abuses and possible manipulation. We need to come back to Scripture and ask is the gift of healing for today, does it say that, or does it say that it has passed away? If it is still around what does it really look like?

We need to check our theology, if we ought to pray for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, for his kingdom come and his will be done. Does this not involve the healing of the sick and wounded?

Do we still believe that the prayer of the righteous has much power?

And then we have innumerable non-religious healers, who do marvellousthings, or so it is claimed. Is Lourdes genuine? I wouldn't know - but if it is, then what reply can one make about those healings that are claimed to happen there?

And how about this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-patients.html ?

And this: http://raybrownhealing.com/

http://www.harryedwardshealingsanctu...k/healing.html

A google search will show dozens of such healers, places and individuals. One of the most remarkable claims I have ever heard is that of a yogi, swami Ramdev, who has apparently healed thousands at his ashram in India, and regularly conducts sessions with over 500 people attending at a time in the UK and all over the world.

He has actually published illustrative figures, showing the measurable and measured biochemical changes that have taken place in his patients.

All of which leaves me with the gravest doubts about claims of possession of the Holy Spirit 'to heal'.

We need to have discernment for sure to realize what are false wonders and what are true works of the Holy Spirit, again it seems your skepticism of what you SEE. Leaves you to doubt whether or not the Spirit still heals today, I think your problem goes a bit deeper than this.

I think you need to ask yourself this question. Do I trust God at his Word, even against my own skepticism?

How does one distinguish between the healers? Is it possible to do so? Are they all charlatans and frauds - and do their healings really happen - despite the fact that their connection with Christianity is either non-existent or tenuous at best?

And if the healings really happen, or at least a percentage of them do, then to what should we attribute them?

It's a perplexing subject, without any definitive answers possible.

I have often thought that if these Christian 'healers' really possess the power of God's Spirit, then why aren't they out on the streets and in the hospitals and hospices everywhere, healing people in their thousands, as Jesus clearly did?

I'm not saying it's easy to do, though I don't think we should go around looking into every ministry that claims healing and then having an opinion about it. I think if you encounter it in your real life, you should have a strong Biblically wise approach to how you discern it.

Also, I don't necessarily believer there are people who are "healers" who heal every time they pray. Rather, I think that the Spirit of God apportions the gifts of the Spirit as HE wills.

An illustration would simply be this: The Holy Spirit gives me the gift of healing for someone's cancer through prayer, I then pray for the person with cancer and the Holy Spirit heals them. The prayer of the righteous man has much power to it, because he wields the power of God who created the universe. Do we still believe that even greater things we will do then Jesus? I don't think so, and faith and healing go hand and hand.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

So, even the defenders, in their defense, confirm the valid suspicion.

Hmm....so those who defend Gospel - salvation, confirm the valid suspicion of the unbeliever that He did not rise from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father?

Not at all.

That's a pretty big leap you made there, by the way.

working themselves up in a frenzy of "tongue speaking

If the Holy Spirit physically moved my mouth

These two statements clearly show that you have no idea as to how tongues work or used correctly.

Really? How does it work?

The Pharisees denied the miracles that Jesus did, even to saying that He was doing them by the power of satan. They denied He was the Messiah rather than seeking God and searching the Scriptures.

Bad comparison. Denying the miracles of Jesus when you lived during the same time and in the same area is a far cry from denying the "miracles" of the umpteen-thousandth preacher who claims to perform them.

Your arguments are not valid.

But your twists and leaps are.

Only the Scriptures tell the Truth of the argument.

Like I said before, if Scripture was able let us know who is lying or not, we would never be successfully lied to again.

 

[Deborah13]

Also, I don't necessarily believer there are people who are "healers" who heal every time they pray. Rather, I think that the Spirit of God apportions the gifts of the Spirit as HE wills.

I agree with this too. One of the professors in my daughter's classes said this same thing. He said that there is the five fold ministry and none are a healing ministry. But the Lord uses faithful people to heal as He wills. He said if more people were willing and faithful there would be no need for the few that people flock too.
I chuckled, and the frauds would be out of business.