T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

[atpollard]

Philemon 2:13 This verse does not exist in Philemon.

My typo ... Philippians 2:13

 

[JLB]

PeterJens and wondering, posts 157 and 158 are beautiful with the pictures you are creating with your words.

Who ever thought that being a slave to something could be a good thing? But, being a slave to love is the only good thing. (that is the paradox here) It is almost against our will, because our will is to be selfish.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Beautiful scripture.

He never gives up on us. I am a living testimony of His faithfulness.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

My typo ... Philippians 2:13

We were discussing what compatible free will is.
And to show what it is, you posted some verses which are all true and which I explained to you as I, and most of Christianity, understand them.

They have nothing to do with compatible free will.
What your verses are discussing is that God helps us in every way to do His will, but He does not force us to do His will,,,,and in a manner unbeknownst to us.

If God impels us to do His will....
even though we THINK we want do....
It is NOT free will.

You could have, instead, explained to everyone reading along YOUR understanding of compatible free will. Why...because the verses you have posted are believed by all Christians that also believe in libertarian free will...the ONLY TRUE free will that exists.

Philippians 2:13 is the same as the other verses.
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

We all believe that God is AT WORK in us ....
HOW He is at work in us is what is different in our understanding.

Please correct me if I'm wrong:

You believe that God makes us want what He wants because our nature has changed and He has given us a new heart. This new heart makes us desire what God would want us to desire.
So.....how come Christians still sin?
Is God not able to stop us from sinning if, indeed, it is HE that is at work in us both to will and to work for His good pleasure?
This theology presents us with quite a problem.
It would make it seem that God is not able to stop His sons from sinning...
OR
He WANTS His sons to sin???
Is this His will and His desire?


What I believe:

Philppians 2:13, and your other verses, are very understandable within the confines of the theology which was present in the time of Jesus and in the Early Church and in the doctrine of major Christian churches. (not that reformed churches are not abundant).

Philippians 2:12 tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. IOW,,,,with obedience to God and with respect toward God. Why is Paul telling me this if GOD is AT WORK IN ME TO DO HIS WILL??

Because it does not mean what you believe it does.
It means that Jesus left this earth and sent us the Holy Spirit to BE OUR GUIDE and HELPER.
John 16:7
7“But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

What is a helper?
Is it someone that forces or impels you to do their will...or is it someone that helps you in doing the right thing?

Philippians 2:1 tells us that there is ENCOURAGEMENT in Christ...He makes us joyful,,,Paul asks if there is any fellowship with him then we should make his (Paul's) joy complete by maintaining the same spirit.

If we will, by nature, do the will of God, why does Paul exhort us to a certain behavior in each of his letters? Wouldn't he have known that we would NATURALLY do what God desires us to do?

You should also check out
Philippians 3:17-19
Interesting verses indeed that prove God does NOT get what He wants from persons.

If you're correct in your theology A...
God is woefully unable to keep His people.

Which would bring us to the Israelites and their misbehavior...
A God that CANNOT achieve HIS OWN WILL to His own people.
A weak God indeed.

 

[JLB]

My typo ... Philippians 2:13

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

This sums up my whole Theology, about how we are to live the Christian life, led by the Spirit.


God gives us the the grace, the power of His Spirit, to do what we could not do without it; Obey Him!

• Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,

• for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

God works in our lives through His Spirit; The Spirit of grace.

Each of us have the choice to yield to, and obey the Spirit in this walk of faith.


Example:


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 22-23

• you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

This scripture show us how we are born again.


again



Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.




JLB

 

[Butch5]

Perseverance of the saints is a concept that began with Luther, Knox, Calvin, etc.

The belief in the reformed faith (commonly known as Calvinism) is that God predestines those that are to be saved.
Since God predestines them...they will persevere to the end of their lives due to the fact that they really do not have free will and thus God will keep them saved.

However, since the reformation in the first part of the 16th century, some denominations have come to hold this belief.

I have studied under two mainline denominational churches--- the Catholic Church and the Nazarene Church; both hold that eternal unconditional security is nowhere to be found in the New Testament. IOW, Perseverance of the Saints is not taught in the N.T. (this is also known as Eternal Security or Once Saved, Always Saved).

It would be good if Christ the King and atpollard gave us their beliefs regarding this....
for those of us who may have questions.

Please us biblical verses if you are able....
and please keep in mind that all of us love Jesus, no matter what our doctrinal stance may be.

What does this mean to you?

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

How could we lose our faith, if your think this is possible?
If it's not possible, why do you believe it is not possible?

The above verses sound very clear....are they?

The Bible doesn't teach OSAS. There is no support for it in the Scriptures. sometimes people will try to defend it with passages of Scripture taken out of context.

 

[PeterJens]

The Bible doesn't teach OSAS. There is no support for it in the Scriptures. sometimes people will try to defend it with passages of Scripture taken out of context.

My heart wants to understand OSAS.
One way of expressing salvation of faithful believers who walk the straight path, they are secure.

Cart before horse is a phrase used against me. The horse is knowing Jesus and loving Him. Everything else flows from this.

The horse used by some is salvation irrespective of heart or faith, which is diluted universalism.

If one knows Jesus, being a sinner does not work. Being a loving follower on the path does, for the path is not the way to the Kingdom, it is the Kingdom.

Clearly God does not change, yet some claim in Jesus we have a cover for evil behaviour. But you have to miss salvation to believe this, like calling a person a cyclist who hates cycles. Does not work. Worse still when called to cycle, just is an accident with no remedy.

 

[Butch5]

My heart wants to understand OSAS.
One way of expressing salvation of faithful believers who walk the straight path, they are secure.

Cart before horse is a phrase used against me. The horse is knowing Jesus and loving Him. Everything else flows from this.

The horse used by some is salvation irrespective of heart or faith, which is diluted universalism.

If one knows Jesus, being a sinner does not work. Being a loving follower on the path does, for the path is not the way to the Kingdom, it is the Kingdom.

Clearly God does not change, yet some claim in Jesus we have a cover for evil behaviour. But you have to miss salvation to believe this, like calling a person a cyclist who hates cycles. Does not work. Worse still when called to cycle, just is an accident with no remedy.

Hi PeterJens,

The doctrine of OSAS comes out of a Gnostic doctrine called Fatalism or Determinism. Fatalism holds that all things are determined by fate and that nothing man can do can change this. Augustine who brought the idea of Perseverance of the Saints to the church was a Manichean before becoming a Christian. He held this doctrine of Fatalism. In his writings on Perseverance of the Saints he basically just exchanged fate with God. All things would be determined by God rather than fate. Augustine's doctrine was rejected by the Catholic Church. Later at the Reformation Calvin and Luther who studied Augustine both espoused this doctrine. That essentially how we have it today.

 

[OzSpen]

The Bible doesn't teach OSAS. There is no support for it in the Scriptures. sometimes people will try to defend it with passages of Scripture taken out of context.

Butch5,

On this forum, we are no longer permitted to discuss OSAS and NOSAS.

We shouldn't stray onto that forbidden topic, but perseverance of the saints is related to it.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible doesn't teach OSAS. There is no support for it in the Scriptures. sometimes people will try to defend it with passages of Scripture taken out of context.

I couldn't agree more.
I firmly believe that if someone comes to the N.T. with no preconceived notions...it's impossible to come away without understanding these facts:

We are sinners
We need a Savior
Jesus is that Savior
We need to FOLLOW HIM and be His disciples
We need to obey
It's possible to fall away,,,not hold on,,,,etc.
If we are not IN CHRIST we will not be saved eternally

Perseverance of the Saints, which is the P in TULIP of calvinism....
means that God KEEPS US SAVED ---- I find that the Holy Spirit helps us to remain saved....but I do not see anywhere in scripture that we are forced to remain saved.

Calvinism depends on Total Depravity and the absence of Free Will for all the doctrine - take those two away and it falls apart.

And, as you've stated, to make this work many verses have to be taken out of context.

John 10:28 is a famous one.
Verse 27 tells WHO will are the sheep,,,,but it is somehow misunderstood.

Jesus GIVES ETERNAL LIFE....
OK
But eternal life begins after death...not right now.
Right now we still have to die once...THEN comes eternal life to THOSE WHO BELIEVE.

Seems so simple, doesn't it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Butch5,

On this forum, we are no longer permitted to discuss OSAS and NOSAS.

We shouldn't stray onto that forbidden topic, but perseverance of the saints is related to it.

Oz

Oz,
In this particular forum we're in right now, we can discuss this as only the invited are permitted to be here....and only those that can discuss topics calmly and without becoming upset are allowed in.

There is no problem in discussing this as long as we remain civil to each other.

Butch5

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi PeterJens,

The doctrine of OSAS comes out of a Gnostic doctrine called Fatalism or Determinism. Fatalism holds that all things are determined by fate and that nothing man can do can change this. Augustine who brought the idea of Perseverance of the Saints to the church was a Manichean before becoming a Christian. He held this doctrine of Fatalism. In his writings on Perseverance of the Saints he basically just exchanged fate with God. All things would be determined by God rather than fate. Augustine's doctrine was rejected by the Catholic Church. Later at the Reformation Calvin and Luther who studied Augustine both espoused this doctrine. That essentially how we have it today.

I saw this after I wrote to you....

Just a comment re Augustine:
You're right that the Catholic Church does not accept all of his theories. They HAVE accepted the theory on Original Sin, which I think is wrong but who am I?

On predestination...Augustine did believe in predestination, as you've stated and for the reasons you've stated which largely go ignored by the reformers that used the part of his theology that they liked....

However, Augustine believed that we are all predestined to be lost and it is up to us to become saved.

Calvinism (the reformed) believes in double predestination...
God picks those that will be lost
AND
God picks those that will be saved.

Not even their hero, Augustine, believed this.

He said something to the effect:
Those that are saved...God saves;
those that are lost...are lost due to their own failing.

Something like that....IOW,, we DO have to possibility of saving ourselves.

 

[GodsGrace]

My heart wants to understand OSAS.
One way of expressing salvation of faithful believers who walk the straight path, they are secure.

Cart before horse is a phrase used against me. The horse is knowing Jesus and loving Him. Everything else flows from this.

The horse used by some is salvation irrespective of heart or faith, which is diluted universalism.

If one knows Jesus, being a sinner does not work. Being a loving follower on the path does, for the path is not the way to the Kingdom, it is the Kingdom.

Clearly God does not change, yet some claim in Jesus we have a cover for evil behaviour. But you have to miss salvation to believe this, like calling a person a cyclist who hates cycles. Does not work. Worse still when called to cycle, just is an accident with no remedy.

I have a feeling that MAYBE those that believe in eternal security (OSAS) are frightened of the fact that they sin...because many times I'm told that SINNING does not make one lose their salvation.

And I'd have to agree with that. Sinning does not make one lose their salvation...even the Early Fathers knew there was a problem after one was baptized and they still sinned. (they did actually believe sinning would stop after baptism).

There is a difference between SINNING
and
LIVING A LIFE OF SIN
and
ABANDONING GOD and becoming an unbeliever again.
(these three are found in scripture....
1 John 1:8-10 this covers sinning
1 John 3:9 this covers a life of sinning
2 Peter 2:20 this covers falling away

A person is forgiven for sinning...
the other two categories present a problem.

Perhaps that fear they have, without really understanding the above? leaves them with the only resource of having to believe that salvation cannot be forfeited....

I don't know.
Maybe some just need a cover for their sinning.
Maybe they want their cake and eat it too.

 

[OzSpen]

I couldn't agree more.
I firmly believe that if someone comes to the N.T. with no preconceived notions...it's impossible to come away without understanding these facts:

We are sinners
We need a Savior
Jesus is that Savior
We need to FOLLOW HIM and be His disciples
We need to obey
It's possible to fall away,,,not hold on,,,,etc.
If we are not IN CHRIST we will not be saved eternally

Perseverance of the Saints, which is the P in TULIP of calvinism....
means that God KEEPS US SAVED ---- I find that the Holy Spirit helps us to remain saved....but I do not see anywhere in scripture that we are forced to remain saved.

Calvinism depends on Total Depravity and the absence of Free Will for all the doctrine - take those two away and it falls apart.

And, as you've stated, to make this work many verses have to be taken out of context.

John 10:28 is a famous one.
Verse 27 tells WHO will are the sheep,,,,but it is somehow misunderstood.

Jesus GIVES ETERNAL LIFE....
OK
But eternal life begins after death...not right now.
Right now we still have to die once...THEN comes eternal life to THOSE WHO BELIEVE.

Seems so simple, doesn't it?

wondering,

Arminius also taught Perseverance of the Saints. It is not only a TULIP position.

See my article:
Arminius on perseverance of the saints

Oz

 

[Butch5]

Butch5,

On this forum, we are no longer permitted to discuss OSAS and NOSAS.

We shouldn't stray onto that forbidden topic, but perseverance of the saints is related to it.

Oz

OK, I used the wrong term. This does go to my point to you in the Trinity thread that different forums have different polices on different doctrines. That was why I asked about the policy.

 

[Butch5]

I couldn't agree more.
I firmly believe that if someone comes to the N.T. with no preconceived notions...it's impossible to come away without understanding these facts:

We are sinners
We need a Savior
Jesus is that Savior
We need to FOLLOW HIM and be His disciples
We need to obey
It's possible to fall away,,,not hold on,,,,etc.
If we are not IN CHRIST we will not be saved eternally

Perseverance of the Saints, which is the P in TULIP of calvinism....
means that God KEEPS US SAVED ---- I find that the Holy Spirit helps us to remain saved....but I do not see anywhere in scripture that we are forced to remain saved.

Calvinism depends on Total Depravity and the absence of Free Will for all the doctrine - take those two away and it falls apart.

And, as you've stated, to make this work many verses have to be taken out of context.

John 10:28 is a famous one.
Verse 27 tells WHO will are the sheep,,,,but it is somehow misunderstood.

Jesus GIVES ETERNAL LIFE....
OK
But eternal life begins after death...not right now.
Right now we still have to die once...THEN comes eternal life to THOSE WHO BELIEVE.

Seems so simple, doesn't it?

Yeah, it does. You touched on two key points. One that Calvinism relies on Total Depravity. However, we see that God calls quite a few people righteous. The second is that eternal life comes after we die, not when we believe. I think the reason many miss this point is because many believe the "Immortal Soul" doctrine. The idea that man is an immortal soul that will live forever in either Heaven or Hell.

 

[Butch5]

I saw this after I wrote to you....

Just a comment re Augustine:
You're right that the Catholic Church does not accept all of his theories. They HAVE accepted the theory on Original Sin, which I think is wrong but who am I?

On predestination...Augustine did believe in predestination, as you've stated and for the reasons you've stated which largely go ignored by the reformers that used the part of his theology that they liked....

However, Augustine believed that we are all predestined to be lost and it is up to us to become saved.

Calvinism (the reformed) believes in double predestination...
God picks those that will be lost
AND
God picks those that will be saved.

Not even their hero, Augustine, believed this.

He said something to the effect:
Those that are saved...God saves;
those that are lost...are lost due to their own failing.

Something like that....IOW,, we DO have to possibility of saving ourselves.

Yeah, the Catholic Church didn't accept all of his ideas. I agree with you that the doctrine of "Original Sin" isn't Biblical. It's stated plainly in the Scriptures that the son shall not die for the sins of the father. That pretty much ends that doctrine right there.

Regarding predestination I believe he was way off base. Predestination in the Bible is not about being saved. It's about God's choosing of Israel. I find it sad when I see Christians debating this subject because both sides are wrong. The Arminian says that God knows who will believe and saves them. The Calvinist says that God chose before creation. Both sides are wrong. It's not about God choosing who will be saved. It's about God choosing Israel.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Arminius also taught Perseverance of the Saints. It is not only a TULIP position.

See my article:
Arminius on perseverance of the saints

Oz

This is very interesting because Calvinists keep telling me I'm an Arminian and I don't even know what he taught.

So there you go....I'm NOT an Arminian because I don't believe in eternal security...but only on conditional eternal security. The condition being that we believe in Christ and are a disciple.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, it does. You touched on two key points. One that Calvinism relies on Total Depravity. However, we see that God calls quite a few people righteous. The second is that eternal life comes after we die, not when we believe. I think the reason many miss this point is because many believe the "Immortal Soul" doctrine. The idea that man is an immortal soul that will live forever in either Heaven or Hell.

Whether one believes in an immortal soul, or annihilation, or soul sleep.....I don't honestly see what difference it makes.

IOW,,, eternal life comes after we die...
but so does annihilation, for instance.
That wouldn't change the concept of Jesus giving us eternal life now,,,,would it?

 

[Butch5]

Whether one believes in an immortal soul, or annihilation, or soul sleep.....I don't honestly see what difference it makes.

IOW,,, eternal life comes after we die...
but so does annihilation, for instance.
That wouldn't change the concept of Jesus giving us eternal life now,,,,would it?

Those who hold the immortal soul doctrine don't believe people die. They believe only the body dies. Since they believe this they already have eternal life. Why would God need to give eternal life to someone who is immortal? Those who don't hold it understand that man dies. If he dies he obviously doesn't have eternal life. So, for him to have eternal life it would have to come after he died.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, the Catholic Church didn't accept all of his ideas. I agree with you that the doctrine of "Original Sin" isn't Biblical. It's stated plainly in the Scriptures that the son shall not die for the sins of the father. That pretty much ends that doctrine right there.

Regarding predestination I believe he was way off base. Predestination in the Bible is not about being saved. It's about God's choosing of Israel. I find it sad when I see Christians debating this subject because both sides are wrong. The Arminian says that God knows who will believe and saves them. The Calvinist says that God chose before creation. Both sides are wrong. It's not about God choosing who will be saved. It's about God choosing Israel.

Do you know the Arminian belief?
Could you explain it please....
I get accused of being an Arminian all the time.
OzSpen wrote an article about it on his site.