T.U.L.I.P. - Perseverance of the Saints

[JLB]

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

I have no idea why you can so clearly see man’s requirements without seeing the empowering means to ensure compliance that God has put in place.

I have always said it is by the Spirit we are able to do these things, however it is up to each one of us to obey the Lord.


We must walk according to the Spirit, rather than walking according to the sinful desires of the flesh.







JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

When you make a false claim that something is not in scripture, and I present scriptures stating what you claim is not there ... that is not “verse ping pong”.

However, your ignoring all of the scripture that I posted to tell me that I am wrong and throw up a verse ripped from context to prove your opinion ... that IS “verse ping pong”.

So I agree that your verse ping pong will get us nowhere.
God bless.

I know you like speaking to JLB more than you like speaking to me...I knew this years ago.

However, I did NOT ask you to disprove a verse by posting another verse.

This is NOT how exegesis is done.

If I post a verse you do not agree with,,,you should explain to me WHY you think I don't understand it properly.

Instead you posted verse,,,the usual ones BTW, trying to disprove MY verse...THIS is verse ping pong.

Now...I can't force you to discuss with me...

However...
LET IT BE KNOWN that you are unable to exegete 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 because it is too plain and simple and understandable.

Better to stick to one of a kind verses that do NOT make a doctrine. As you must surely know,,,,it takes more than one or two verses to create a doctrine around it.

This is also why I was banned from your favorite site....better to ban me than to explain the UNDESIRED verses since they cannot be explained with reformed teachings.

You've also failed to respond to 2 other posts of mine.
I must be a tough nut to crack.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

I have no idea why you can so clearly see man’s requirements without seeing the empowering means to ensure compliance that God has put in place.

WHO said we don't see the empowering means?
EVERYONE on this board knows about the empowering means.

What does this have to do with anything?
1. How they are received.
2. How they are implemented.

If you know what I mean....

 

[JLB]

I know you like speaking to JLB more than you like speaking to me...I knew this years ago.

However, I did NOT ask you to disprove a verse by posting another verse.

This is NOT how exegesis is done.

If I post a verse you do not agree with,,,you should explain to me WHY you think I don't understand it properly.

Instead you posted verse,,,the usual ones BTW, trying to disprove MY verse...THIS is verse ping pong.

Now...I can't force you to discuss with me...

However...
LET IT BE KNOWN that you are unable to exegete 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 because it is too plain and simple and understandable.

Better to stick to one of a kind verses that do NOT make a doctrine. As you must surely know,,,,it takes more than one or two verses to create a doctrine around it.

This is also why I was banned from your favorite site....better to ban me than to explain the UNDESIRED verses since they cannot be explained with reformed teachings.

You've also failed to respond to 2 other posts of mine.
I must be a tough nut to crack.

I think you should each post one verse with context and each person make their case from the verse chosen.

Each side agrees to discuss the verse the other has presented.

Until each person has exhausted their argument.

Or each can start a thread from a verse and stick to discussing that verse, while posting two or three at most other scriptures that support the scripture in discussion.


Which way seems best to you guys?


I know I hate it, when someone else just post’s other scriptures of their choosing rather than address the scripture being discussed.


I will follow these guidelines as well.


JLB

 

[JLB]

WHO said we don't see the empowering means?
EVERYONE on this board knows about the empowering means.

What does this have to do with anything?
1. How they are received.
2. How they are implemented.

If you know what I mean....

To me, the empowering means to live the Christian life is the Holy Spirit.


Here’s how the scriptures instruct us to receive the Holy Spirt.


And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Acts 5:32




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

To me, the empowering means to live the Christian life is the Holy Spirit.


Here’s how the scriptures instruct us to receive the Holy Spirt.


And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Acts 5:32




JLB

Great....
and every teaching in the N.T. supports the fact that we have a part in receiving the Holy Spirit.

TO THOSE WHO OBEY....
GOD SENDS THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Romans 8:14
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

God did not send us a spirit of slavery leading to fear,
but a spirit of adoption as sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

And how do we know we are sons and heirs of God?
Because somehow we have been chosen by God?
No.
But because we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. The N.T. does not teach that God will make us suffer for Him...but that we do this of ourselves. Luke 14:27
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Luke 14:27-28
27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you should each post one verse with context and each person make their case from the verse chosen.

Each side agrees to discuss the verse the other has presented.

Until each person has exhausted their argument.

Or each can start a thread from a verse and stick to discussing that verse, while posting two or three at most other scriptures that support the scripture in discussion.


Which way seems best to you guys?


I know I hate it, when someone else just post’s other scriptures of their choosing rather than address the scripture being discussed.


I will follow these guidelines as well.


JLB

Agreed.

This is also how I understand discussions to be.

I posted 1 Corinthians 15:1-2...I'd like atpollard 's understanding of that verse BEFORE we go on to John 10...which has been discussed so many times - but so be it.

I did NOT see any reply to 1 Cor 15.....
So, yes, I'd agree.

 

[JLB]

Great....
and every teaching in the N.T. supports the fact that we have a part in receiving the Holy Spirit.

TO THOSE WHO OBEY....
GOD SENDS THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Romans 8:14
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

God did not send us a spirit of slavery leading to fear,
but a spirit of adoption as sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

And how do we know we are sons and heirs of God?
Because somehow we have been chosen by God?
No.
But because we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. The N.T. does not teach that God will make us suffer for Him...but that we do this of ourselves. Luke 14:27
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Amen.

Many of us can not relate to suffering for Christ; being persecuted because of our stand as a Christian.


I believe America will face great persecution before the Lord returns. I wonder how many will stand and continue in the faith, while being persecuted for Christ?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Agreed.

This is also how I understand discussions to be.

I posted 1 Corinthians 15:1-2...I'd like atpollard 's understanding of that verse BEFORE we go on to John 10...which has been discussed so many times - but so be it.

I did NOT see any reply to 1 Cor 15.....
So, yes, I'd agree.

Plainly, Paul says....


Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2


If we stop believing, in that we no longer believe in Jesus Christ, our initial believing was done in vain.


So simple.


The condition for salvation; for eternal life is to believe.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen.

Many of us can not relate to suffering for Christ; being persecuted because of our stand as a Christian.


I believe America will face great persecution before the Lord returns. I wonder how many will stand and continue in the faith, while being persecuted for Christ?




JLB

We face small persecutions even now.
I fixed my post no. 86 because I forgot to post Luke ....

As to how many will stand in the face of REAL persecution....
as for myself - I make no claim. Fear does strange things to persons.
Peter denied Christ 3 times...but he remained saved due to his contrite heart.

However, I do agree with you that difficult times are coming.
And may already be here somewhat.

 

[GodsGrace]

Plainly, Paul says....


Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2


If we stop believing, in that we no longer believe in Jesus Christ, our initial believing was done in vain.


So simple.


The condition for salvation; for eternal life is to believe.



JLB

Of course....
If we believe...we're saved.
If we do not believe.....we're not saved....

no matter at what point in our lives we do not believe:
Before, After, At the End....
Belief must be present at death.

For whosoever BELIEVES will be saved.... (it does not say BELIEVED).
John 3:16

 

[JLB]

We face small persecutions even now.
I fixed my post no. 86 because I forgot to post Luke ....

As to how many will stand in the face of REAL persecution....
as for myself - I make no claim. Fear does strange things to persons.
Peter denied Christ 3 times...but he remained saved due to his contrite heart.

However, I do agree with you that difficult times are coming.
And may already be here somewhat.

So true.

None of us, can say. We can prepare and ask the Lord to help us in these things. We can draw near to Him, and dwell in His presence, drawing upon His strength, being filled with His Spirit and love to endure to the end.


Peter was sooooo sure.


Thank goodness he returned to the Lord, and was restored.


He became strong in the face of persecution and death.


Hebrews says it this way —

• out of weakness were made strong

who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. Hebrews 11:33-38

• Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

May His faith and strength fill us in these last days.





JLB

 

[JLB]

BELIEVES

Believe meaning present tense.

 

[JLB]

 

[GodsGrace]

So true.

None of us, can say. We can prepare and ask the Lord to help us in these things. We can draw near to Him, and dwell in His presence, drawing upon His strength, being filled with His Spirit and love to endure to the end.


Peter was sooooo sure.


Thank goodness he returned to the Lord, and was restored.


He became strong in the face of persecution and death.


Hebrews says it this way —

• out of weakness were made strong

who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. Hebrews 11:33-38

• Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

May His faith and strength fill us in these last days.





JLB

Of course, I've considered all of the above.

My only point being that we do not truly know what we would do in any circumstance until we are faced with it.

When I read about how the early martyrs died, I don't quite understand how they had this strength. I can understand the Apostles and Paul,,,but after they all died and persons were still being killed for their faith....I do wonder what I would have done.

We spoke about this one time months ago in bible study.
Some were certain they'd be able to go off to be beheaded or killed or even worse....some of us were not so sure.

 

[JLB]

When I read about how the early martyrs died, I don't quite understand how they had this strength. I can understand the Apostles and Paul,,,but after they all died and persons were still being killed for their faith....I do wonder what I would have done.

Amen.


The New Testament speaks from this perspective quite a bit.

I wonder how people can think there is a Pretrib rapture, when there is no where in the scriptures that teaches this.


I guess people only hear what they want to hear.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen.


The New Testament speaks from this perspective quite a bit.

I wonder how people can think there is a Pretrib rapture, when there is no where in the scriptures that teaches this.


I guess people only hear what they want to hear.





JLB

I don't know much about the end times...
But I do know that there is no rapture...
I don't believe there will be a rapture at any time....
Then the early Christians should have been raptured too. I think.
It would have been some testimony.

And if all born again Christians were raptured at some point....why wouldn't the others left become believers? What doubt would there be then??

I believe those taken away while in the fields has already happened. The Roman soldiers took them away, probably during the seige of Jerusalem in 70AD....the ones LEFT, were the lucky ones.

Jesus is coming back only one time...
not two.

And that's about all I think I know!

 

[JLB]

But I do know that there is no rapture...
I don't believe there will be a rapture at any time....

The rapture or the catching up, is for those who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord.


Think of it as a resurrection for living Christians.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus is coming back only one time...
not two

Amen.


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

The rapture or the catching up, is for those who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord.


Think of it as a resurrection for living Christians.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


JLB

I agree with the above....
this will be at the end time....
those alive will meet with Jesus in the air...
and those in the tomb will resurrect and will join
(it might be V V ).

Those that are alive will immediately, in the twinkling of an eye, have their glorified bodies.

I believe it's at this time that the New Jerusalem (Earth) will come into existence but this time with no satan who will be in the Lake of Fire.