Unfortunately, no matter how hard you and Kermos might try, nor of how persuasive and spiritually correct your arguments might be, it is impossible for those to whom the verses apply, to realize they are actually the ones being spoken about in them (such as with the above verses). Unless and until becoming born again by God, they will remain blind without spiritual discernment or comprehension. It's counter-intuitive, but concerning things spiritual, those of the blind, know not that they're blind. It's not really their fault as we were all born in that state.
Tasted Death for every Man !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Unfortunately, no matter how hard you and Kermos might try, nor of how persuasive and spiritually correct your arguments might be, it is impossible for those to whom the verses apply, to realize they are actually the ones being spoken about in them (such as with the above verses). Unless and until becoming born again by God, they will remain blind without spiritual discernment or comprehension. It's counter-intuitive, but concerning things spiritual, those of the blind, know not that they're blind. It's not really their fault as we were all born in that state.
One who does not believe were never his sheep, period.
Only those who believe are his sheep.
In "John 10:26" Lord Jesus is identifying the sheep that do not belong to him, which are the sheep who do not believe.
In "John 10:27" Lord Jesus is identifying the sheep who are his - the sheep who believe, demonstrated by listening to and following him.
Any sheep who do not listen to and follow Lord Jesus are not his sheep and will never have eternal life.
However, Lord Jesus died on the cross for the whole world, so that those believing in him may have eternal life (John 3:16). And those who believe are the sheep of Lord Jesus. And by believing, we listen to and follow Lord Jesus.
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Besides Saul's encounter with the risen Christ on the road to Damascus where he became converted by Christ and not of himself, where else in the Bible do you find that he believed in Christ before his conversion? I'll save you the trouble, you won't find that because he didn't.
His conversion came first, and from that, Paul's faith came. The sequence of events are not difficult to follow.
You don't understand the verse you quoted, and it means the exact opposite to what you're saying it means. Who do you think the "our hearts" represents? It represents only the saved/born again, not the unsaved - specifically for this verse, those who bring the gospel.
Read closely again the highlighted words and think about what they're saying. They tell us that the light must FIRST shine in the heart in order for it not to be hidden and the knowledge to be gained. IOW, without first having the light no one can gain the knowledge. Since not everyone has the knowledge, then they don't/can't have within themselves the light either - it must first be given to them, but not of themselves, nor it is given to everyone- those who believe have been given that light which of itself gives the knowledge - it is an unconditional association: that a must give b.
It is hidden and remains so until and unless becoming born again by God. What do you think these verses mean?
They mean the spiritually blind cannot give to themselves spiritual sight any more than the spiritually dead cannot give to themselves spiritual life. This same thing is being spoken about in 2 Corinthians 4:4 - that it was HIDDEN from them - not only that it was unknown to them but that it was unknown because it was HIDDEN.
[Jhn 12:38-40 KJV]
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
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The entire NT Gospel refutes your doctrine.
We are not saved so we can believe; rather, according to the NT Gospel, Lord Jesus was crucified as payment for the sins of all mankind so that those believing in him are granted eternal life by the Father (John 3:14-18).
God will harden a sinner’s heart, and also Christian's heart, in punishment, who deliberately keeps on sinning, giving such persons over to their sinfulness (Romans 1:18-32; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Hebrews 10:24-31), whether permanently or temporarily (2 Timothy 2:25-26).
If God has to harden someone's heart for repeatedly refusing his grace, then that means they already had the ability to respond in faith to the Gospel before God hardened them. No special regeneration was required to believe.
That is the Gospel Revelation no matter how much you detest it.
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Do you think God hardens his Elect Israel, the Apple of His Eye, for no reason? Why would God do that to his Elect people? Think.
John 12:35-40 (WEB)
35 Jesus therefore said to them, “Yet a little while the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, that darkness doesn’t overtake you. He who walks in the darkness doesn’t know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become children of light.” Jesus said these things, and he departed and hid himself from them. 37 But though he had done so many signs before them, yet they didn’t believe in him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke,
“Lord, who has believed our report?
To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” [Isaiah 53:1]
39 {{{For this cause}}} they couldn’t believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and he hardened their heart,
lest they should see with their eyes,
and perceive with their heart,
and would turn,
and I would heal them.” [Isaiah 6:10]
41 Isaiah said these things when he saw his glory, and spoke of him. Isaiah 6:1 42 Nevertheless even many of the rulers believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they didn’t confess it, so that they wouldn’t be put out of the synagogue
In context,
- Lord Jesus urged them to believe in him so they may be children of light (John 12:36).
- Lord Jesus did many miracles among them so they would believe in him (John 12:37).
- But because {{{For this cause}}} they still refused to believe in him, then God hardened them in punishment (John 12:40) lest they should repent and he would heal them.
- "Yet even many of the rulers believed in him. (John 12:42)" So, they were not all hardened - only those who refused to believe.
God will harden a sinner’s heart, and also Christian's heart, in punishment, who deliberately keeps on sinning, giving such persons over to their sinfulness (Romans 1:18-32; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Hebrews 10:24-31), whether permanently or temporarily (2 Timothy 2:25-26).
If God has to harden someone's heart for repeatedly refusing his grace, then that means they already had the ability to respond in faith to the Gospel before God hardened them. No special regeneration was required to believe.
Romans 1:22-26 (WEB) 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools… 24 Therefore (for this reason) God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves; 25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (ENIV) They perish because {{they refused to love the truth}} and so be saved. 11 {{{For this reason}}} God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned {{who have not believed the truth}} but have delighted in wickedness.
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Again:
One has to be a Sheep that Christ died for before they are granted the Gift of believing, otherwise the Gospel is permanently hid from them, and they will never believe.
People dont believe Jn 3:18,36 simply because they were not Sheep for whom Christ died Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
There is no granting the gift of believing for salvation; Not in the Gospel of the NT.
Okay, brightfame52. Go on your way now. I leave you to your doctrines.
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Who do you mean by "his Elect Israel"? Certainly not the earthly nation of Israel, because no earthly
nation is His elect nation, only the spiritual Israel is. God gives sight to His elect, not takes it away from them.
And if you actually read and understood Gal 4:4, you would
see it is the god of this world who does it. I would say to you to think but until
you're born again, your conclusions will only bring you back to where you already are which conclusions are wrong
and have led you away from Christ. But then, that you have placed yourself above Christ as Saviour is evidenced by making of yourself your own saviour instead of Christ.
Did you understand the "could not believe". No, it doesn't say "didn't believe"; it says "could not believe"- big difference- meaning that it was impossible for them to believe. You've attempted to change it so you're the one who needs to be doing some serious thinking and quickly.
[Jhn 12:39 KJV] 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
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Romans 11:28-32 (WEB) 28 Concerning the Good News, they (Israel) are enemies for your sake. But {{{concerning the election}}}, they are beloved for the fathers’ [Patriarchs] sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they may also obtain mercy. 32 For God has bound all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.
[Rom 11:5 KJV] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[Rom 9:6-8 KJV]
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
[Rom 11:14 KJV] 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
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Are you trying to use these Passages to cancel out or refute Romans 11:28-32? It seems that way.
Israel will always remain the Elect of God, that is irrevocable. Nevertheless, individuals in Israel are cut off because they fell by disobedience (Romans 11:11-24).
They stumbled over the stumbling stone:
Romans 9:30-34 (WEB)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone; 33 even as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense; and no one who believes in him will be disappointed.” [Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]
Therefore, as regards individuals in Israel, all through Israel's history, there has always been a faithful remnant, and God accredited to them righteousness. These are the ones who are elected by the grace of God through faith.
For instance, Paul uses the example of the 5000 who did not bow the knee to Baal. God elected them by his grace because of their faithfulness.
Romans 11:1-8 (WEB)
I ask then, did God reject his people? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God didn’t reject his people, which he foreknew. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says about Elijah? How he pleads with God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have broken down your altars. I am left alone, and they seek my life.” [1 Kings 19:10,14] 4 But how does God answer him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” [1 Kings 19:18] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? That which Israel seeks for, that he didn’t obtain, but the chosen ones obtained it, and the rest were hardened. 8 According as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.” [Deuteronomy 29:4; Isaiah 29:10] 9 David says, “Let their table be made a snare, a trap, a stumbling block, and a retribution to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see. Always keep their backs bent.” [Psalm 69:22,23]
Why did David curse Israel? "Psalms 69" gives us the context. Israels sins are the reason David cursed them. David would not curse his own people without a reason. However, he does give comforting words to the humble ones in Israel. All through the history of Israel, and of mankind, there have always been a remnant who believed.
God hardens persons, even those of His own Elect Israel, because they continually rejected his grace. And so, God, in punishment, gives them over to their sins, so they can never repent or believe again.
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Do you often denigrate obedience to God in your doctrines ?
God made it possible FOR US TO WALK IN THE LIGHT.
If you can put one foot in front of the other, you are walking.
I'll give myself credit all day long for walking where I am supposed to.
It is my choice, you know.
As I will suffer for not walking in the light, I will also be rewarded for remaining true to the Lord.
Is answering the "call" also precluded in your doctrines ?
Is that also taking credit for myself ?
That is correct
I identify with the first part of the verse...which you omitted.
It is written..."And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."
There are two realms mentioned there, God's and the devil's.
Which one are "of" ?
Sure, as reality isn't something to admit.
OK, the entire world has the opportunity to avail themselves of the Advocate.
Do you have a question regarding that ?
The dead have no access to the Advocate, so you are already on the wrong street.
The advocacy of the Lord is of no use to those who will not submit to Him and His Father.
I'm sorry you see it that way.
If they had asked the Lord for His advocacy, He would have granted it.
Your doctrine frowns on doing anything for yourself though, so advocacy may be out of your reach.
Thanks be to God for allowing us the choice of whether or not to seek the Advocate's help.
Well, I am refuting your interpretation of them. Israel, as an earthly nation, no longer has special standing with God. There are two Israels mentioned in the Bible: 1) the earthly, and 2) the spiritual. It is the spiritual alone as a nation that has special standing with God through Jesus Christ. The saved are the citizens of spiritual Israel and is that Israel alone which of concern to God. Whenever Israel is mentioned in the Bible, we need to distinguish which one is in view and not automatically always assume it is earthly Israel. The elect are not the children of the flesh but of God's promise. Spiritual Israel is comprised of the children of God's promise, selected from across all nations, races, lineages, families, etc. They are not just Jews neither because they are Jews. Some of them are Jews, just as there are people from all other linages, etc. who are, but only because they were so chosen for it individually by God.
[Gal 3:27-29 KJV]
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
[Rom 11:28 KJV] 28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
IOW, those of the election, but not everyone of earthly Israel, are the beloved of the Father.
God divorced the nation of Israel for their spiritual fornication with other Gods as He warned them repeatedly that He would do. Once divorced, He cannot remarry them, or He would be in violation of His own law. So their special standing with Him was terminated by Him.
[Jer 3:8 KJV] 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[Deu 24:4 KJV]
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.
Based upon your posts, I believe the basic difference between our points of view is that you believe salvation is dependent upon, and achievable though man's willingness and desire to work for it. I believe the polar opposite true - that it is completely outside of and unachievable in any sense whatsoever by man - that it can only be a gift from God and a gift at its fullest, deepest, and profound meaning.
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The Lord Jesus Christ, who is God Himself, says that a Christian's faith/belief is a work of God; therefore, Christians hold to this Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) pronounced by the Christ says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), but your "whatever is meant by what Jesus wrote in 'John 6:29' cannot refute all those other Passages that teach us that our faith in Christ is not a work", so your heart does not receive Christ's sayings of which Christ says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).
Other passages in the New Testament explain that faith/belief is not a work of man, yet other passages in the New Testament explain that faith/belief is an act of God in man (for example, see the rogerg post here for many New Testament passages that the faith/belief in Christians is of Jesus Christ). For example, the Apostle Paul wrote that faith/belief in a Christian is an act of God with:
by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
Behold, "we are His work" in Ephesians 2:10.
None, absolutely none of the passages you cited state that a Christian's faith/belief is not a work of God.
You lied when you wrote "No Passages teaches us that God gives anyone the faith to be saved" because the Christ of us Christians says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as well as the Apostle Paul literally attributing Christian's faith/belief as a "gift of God" along with this faith/belief not being of man (Ephesians 2:8-10, quoted above), and this same Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life" (John 6:47). Your free-willian philosophy must nullify much of Christ's words!
You wrote ""In response to the Jews asking Jesus what 'work' must they do to be saved, Jesus answers them that the work of God (what God requires) is that they believe in him" as your free-willian philosophical interpretation of John 6:25-29, and as recorded in this post, you wrote "The Spirit leads, but only as we, by faith, drink, live, walk, and sow to the Spirit who dwells in and leads those who believe", so your statement there sounds remarkably similar to the Jews inquiry of "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God" (John 6:29).
Notice that Lord Jesus eliminates the "work of man" from His response of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), and no New Testament book diverges from this Truth (John 14:6) that a Christian's faith/belief is a work of God and not a work of man.
Your free-willian philosophy that man manipulates his faith/belief to point at Lord Jesus is opposite of the Christ of us Christians proclamation of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)!
Sorry but the whole phony Calvinism doctrine of the lost being lost permanantly falks apart with the salvation of Saul of Tarsus.
Calvinism is the doctrine of man.
JLB
You changed the word "world" to "realm" in what appears to be your "work" to conceal the fact that the word "world" is affected by context, but the Apostle wrote "world" in "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
Furthermore, you changed the phrase "evil one" to "wickedness".
The word "world" of 1 John 5:19 is not every person in all of time.
Just as the word "world" of 1 John 5:19 is not every person in all of time (you admitted this much), likewise the word "world" of 1 John 2:2 is not every person in all of time.
The Apostle John proclaims
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
(1 John 2:1-2)
My precious and loving Advocate succeeds in every single one of His advocacies, so this Advocate's success in the propitiation of every single Christian's sins requires that the word "world" is limited exclusively to us current Christians and future Christians.
You think "the entire world has the opportunity to avail themselves of the Advocate" which by extension means that you think that Jesus the Advocate propitiated for the sins of persons who never believed in Jesus throughout their life, for example, some Muslim who never believed in Jesus, that Muslim who lived in the year 1502 in the middle of the Ottoman Empire.
That non-Christian Muslim unbeliever had his sins covered by Christ according to your free-willian philosophical statement, but that Muslim died hell-bound, so the Advocate that you preach about is not the Advocate whom the Apostle John proclaims because your Advocate attempts but fails to cover sin resulting in your Advocate failing to give life, but the Advocate of John and I faithfully covers sin resulting in our Advocate giving Life (John 14:6) eternal to God's chosen persons (John 15:16).
The conclusion of your "the whole world" meaning "every person everywhere in all time" in 1 John 2:2 is that Christ the Advocate is a failure, and no Christian believes that Christ is a failure.
We Christians have the perfect Advocate!
We Christians believe the Christ exclusively chooses persons unto salvation:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
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My interpretation is wrong? You say God’s plans for natural Israel has been cancelled? Let us review those Passages again, and you tell me who is wrong.
Romans 11:28-32 (WEB) 28 Concerning the Good News, {{{they}}} are enemies for your sake. But {{{concerning the election}}}, {{{they}}} are beloved for the fathers’ [the Patriarchs] sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, 31 even so {{{these}}} also have now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they may also obtain mercy. 32 For God has bound all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. 26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, “There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob 27 This is my covenant with {{{them}}} [natural Israel], when I will take away their sins.” [Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34]
Who is the {{{they}}} and {{{them}}} that Paul speaks of?
Let’s look at the next Passage I listed…
Romans 11:11-24 (WEB) 11 I ask then, did {{{they}}} stumble that they might fall? May it never be!
But by {{{their}}} fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if {{{their}}} fall is the riches of the world, and {{{their}}} loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? 13 For I speak to you who are Gentiles. Since then as I am an apostle to Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy {{{those}}} who are {{{my flesh}}}, and may save some of {{{them}}}. 15 For if the rejection of {{{them}}} is the reconciling of the world, what would {{{their}}} acceptance be, but life from the dead? 16 If the first fruit is holy, so is the lump. If the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches [individual Jews] were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among {{{them}}} and became partaker with {{{them}}} of the root and of the richness of the olive tree, 18 don’t boast over the branches [individual Jews]. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You [individual Gentile] will say then, “Branches [individual Jews] were broken off, that I [individual Gentile] might be grafted in.” 20 True; by their [individual Jews] unbelief they [individual Jews] were broken off, and you [individual Gentiles] stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches [individual Jews who fell], neither will he spare you [individual Gentiles who were grafted in]. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those [individual Jews] who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you [individual Gentiles] continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 They [natural Jews] also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you [Gentile believers] were cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more will these [natural Jews], which are the natural branches [natural Jews], be grafted into their [natural Jews] own olive tree?
Let’s look at the next Passage I quoted:
Romans 9:30-34 (WEB)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because {{{they}}} didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone; 33 even as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense; and no one who believes in him will be disappointed.” [Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]
Continued. . .