Tasted Death for every Man !

[setst777]

Well, I am refuting your interpretation of them. Israel, as an earthly nation, no longer has special standing with God. There are two Israels mentioned in the Bible: 1) the earthly, and 2) the spiritual.

Continued. . .
Let’s look at the next Passage I quoted:

Romans 11:1-14 (WEB) I ask then, did God reject {{{his people}}}? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God didn’t reject {{{his people, whom he foreknew}}}. Or don’t you know what the Scripture says about Elijah? How he pleads with God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have broken down your altars. I am left alone, and they seek my life.” [1 Kings 19:10,14] 4 But how does God answer him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” [1 Kings 19:18] 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? That which {{{Israel}}} seeks for, that he didn’t obtain, but the chosen ones obtained it, and the rest were hardened. 8 According as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.” [Deuteronomy 29:4; Isaiah 29:10] 9 David says, “Let their table be made a snare, a trap, a stumbling block, and a retribution to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see. Always keep their backs bent.” [Psalm 69:22,23]
11 I ask then, did {{{they}}} [Israel] stumble beyond recovery? May it never be! But by {{{their}}} fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke {{{them}}} to jealousy. 12 Now if {{{their}}} fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more {{{their}}} fullness? 13 For I speak to you who are Gentiles. Since then as I am an apostle to Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy {{{those who are my flesh}}}, and may save some of them.

The fact is, God still has plans for natural Israel. During the Tribulation, God will protect natural Israel from the Dragon (working through the anti-Christ government). And so, the Dragon will become angry, and will go after Israel’s other offspring (Christians).

Revelation 12:14-16 (WEB) 13 When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman [Israel] who gave birth to the male child. 14 Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman [Israel], that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, so that she might be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 The serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream. 16 The earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth. 17 The dragon grew angry with the woman [Israel], and went away to make war with the rest of her offspring, [Christians] who keep God’s commandments and hold Jesus’ testimony.

At the Battle of Armageddon, when all the nations comes against Israel to make war with her, God himself (in the person of Christ) will fight for her. Then it will be that, in the Millennial Kingdom, God will fulfill His plans for natural Israel.

Revelation 12:1-11 (WEB) A revelation: Yahweh’s word concerning Israel. Yahweh, who stretches out the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him says: 2 “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of reeling to all the surrounding peoples, and it will also be on Judah in the siege against Jerusalem. 3 It will happen in that day, that I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all the peoples. All who burden themselves with it will be severely wounded, and all the nations of the earth will be gathered together against it. 4 In that day,” says Yahweh, “I will strike every horse with terror, and his rider with madness; and I will open my eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 The chieftains of Judah will say in their heart, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in Yahweh of Armies their God.’ 6 In that day I will make the chieftains of Judah like a pan of fire among wood, and like a flaming torch among sheaves; and they will devour all the surrounding peoples, on the right hand and on the left; and Jerusalem will yet again dwell in their own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 Yahweh also will save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of David’s house and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem not be magnified above Judah. 8 In that day Yahweh will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem. He who is feeble among them at that day will be like David, and David’s house will be like God, like Yahweh’s angel before them. 9 It will happen in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 I will pour on David’s house, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn. 11 In that day there will be a great mourning in Jerusalem

Revelation 14:1-9 (WEB) Behold, a day of Yahweh comes, when your plunder will be divided within you. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city will be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go out into captivity, and the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then Yahweh will go out and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in two, from east to west, making a very great valley. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 You shall flee by the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azel; yes, you shall flee, just like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Yahweh my God will come, and all the holy ones with you. 6 It will happen in that day, that there will not be light, cold, or frost. 7 It will be a unique day which is known to Yahweh; not day, and not night; but it will come to pass, that at evening time there will be light.
8 It will happen in that day, that living waters will go out from Jerusalem: half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea. It will be so in summer and in winter.
9 Yahweh will be King over all the earth. In that day Yahweh will be one, and his name one.

 

[setst777]

The Lord Jesus Christ, who is God Himself, says that a Christian's faith/belief is a work of God; therefore, Christians hold to this Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) pronounced by the Christ says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), but your "whatever is meant by what Jesus wrote in 'John 6:29' cannot refute all those other Passages that teach us that our faith in Christ is not a work", so your heart does not receive Christ's sayings of which Christ says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Other passages in the New Testament explain that faith/belief is not a work of man, yet other passages in the New Testament explain that faith/belief is an act of God in man (for example, see the rogerg post here for many New Testament passages that the faith/belief in Christians is of Jesus Christ). For example, the Apostle Paul wrote that faith/belief in a Christian is an act of God with:

​

by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

​

Behold, "we are His work" in Ephesians 2:10.

None, absolutely none of the passages you cited state that a Christian's faith/belief is not a work of God.



You lied when you wrote "No Passages teaches us that God gives anyone the faith to be saved" because the Christ of us Christians says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as well as the Apostle Paul literally attributing Christian's faith/belief as a "gift of God" along with this faith/belief not being of man (Ephesians 2:8-10, quoted above), and this same Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life" (John 6:47). Your free-willian philosophy must nullify much of Christ's words!



You wrote ""In response to the Jews asking Jesus what 'work' must they do to be saved, Jesus answers them that the work of God (what God requires) is that they believe in him" as your free-willian philosophical interpretation of John 6:25-29, and as recorded in this post, you wrote "The Spirit leads, but only as we, by faith, drink, live, walk, and sow to the Spirit who dwells in and leads those who believe", so your statement there sounds remarkably similar to the Jews inquiry of "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God" (John 6:29).

Notice that Lord Jesus eliminates the "work of man" from His response of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), and no New Testament book diverges from this Truth (John 14:6) that a Christian's faith/belief is a work of God and not a work of man.

Your free-willian philosophy that man manipulates his faith/belief to point at Lord Jesus is opposite of the Christ of us Christians proclamation of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)!

Your whole argument and doctrine rests upon "Ephesians 2:8-10," because in "John 6:29," Lord Jesus is not teaching anything about faith being a work.

Nowhere in Scripture is faith ever taught to be a work. But you go ahead now and believe that faith is a work. That is your choice and free will.

In addition, no Passage of Scripture in the entire Bible does it ever teach that God gives faith to anyone to be saved. Your assumption that God gives us our faith to be saved is false. You are adding your own doctrine to the Scriptures.

However, even in "Ephesians 2:8-10," faith is not the work; rather, those of faith were created in Christ for good works.

As well, in "Ephesians 2:8-9," faith is not the gift of God, but rather, the grace of salvation is the gift because "gift" is neuter singular just like the verbal concept "by grace you are saved." They both must match in grammar (neuter singular) - the "gift" (neuter singular) refers back to the verbal concept "by grace you are saved" (neuter singular) and the pronoun "this is" is also (neuter singular). Notice that they all three match, being "neuter singular."

In Ephesians 2:8-9, the grace is the indirect object for salvation in "you are saved."

We receive that grace of salvation by faith (feminine genitive noun showing possession of the grace of salvation) - the faith that can only result in good works (Ephesians 2:10), because faith is not a work.

Faith is not part of the grace of salvation that is received by faith because faith modifies the grace of salvation, showing possession of it.
In addition, faith is not part of the grace of salvation because, "by grace you are saved" is a neuter verbal concept taken from Chapter 7 and forwarded to Chapter 8 for further discussion. Faith is added later showing possession of the verbal concept "by grace you are saved."

Ephesians 2:8-9 (WEB) 8 for by grace you have been saved (neuter verbal concept - the subject) through faith (noun Genitive Singular, showing possession of salvation) and that not of yourselves; it is (neuter pronoun phrase referring to the neuter singular verbal concept "by grace you are saved" which is the gift of God (neuter, singular), because it matches the grammar of the verbal concept, being neuter singular), 9 not of works, that no one would boast.

To summarize:

***"Grace" is a feminine noun acting as an indirect object for the subject/verbal concept " by grace you have been saved."
***"Faith" is a feminine noun genitive, showing possession of the verbal concept "by grace you have been saved."
***"By grace you have been saved" is a singular verbal concept, taken from the previous chapter 7, and so is neuter by default.
***"Not of yourselves, it is" is a singular neuter pronoun phrase because it is referring back to the singular neuter verbal concept "By grace you are saved."
***"Not of yourselves, it is" is also is genitive, and so can only refer back to the neuter verbal concept {{{"by grace you have been saved."}}}
***"The gift" is a neuter singular noun, and so refers back to what that gift is, which is the neuter singular subject {{{"by grace you have been saved."}}}. They must match in grammar because "the gift" is referring back to the subject, which is "By grace you are saved."

Consequently, "by grace you have been saved" is also the only subject in Ephesians 2:8-9. And a pronoun can only refer back the closest subject noun or verbal concept, because the verbal concept acts in place of a subject noun when a subject noun does not exist in the sentence, which is the case in "Ephesians 2:8-9."

 

[Hopeful 2]

You changed the word "world" to "realm" in what appears to be your "work" to conceal the fact that the word "world" is affected by context,

Not really.
I was just giving it a different facet.

but the Apostle wrote "world" in "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

If you want to go down that path, you are saying Jesus is evil.
Some are "not of this world".

Furthermore, you changed the phrase "evil one" to "wickedness".

I quoted the scripture as it was written.

The word "world" of 1 John 5:19 is not every person in all of time.

The world isn't in some people at all, after a real conversion.

Just as the word "world" of 1 John 5:19 is not every person in all of time (you admitted this much), likewise the word "world" of 1 John 2:2 is not every person in all of time.

Right, as there are two "realms" being written of.
God's, and the world's.

The Apostle John proclaims

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.​

(1 John 2:1-2)​

Right.
I just wish everyone would avail themselves of His advocacy.

My precious and loving Advocate succeeds in every single one of His advocacies, so this Advocate's success in the propitiation of every single Christian's sins requires that the word "world" is limited exclusively to us current Christians and future Christians.

Thanks be to God.
I just wish everyone would avail themselves of His advocacy.

You think "the entire world has the opportunity to avail themselves of the Advocate" which by extension means that you think that Jesus the Advocate propitiated for the sins of persons who never believed in Jesus throughout their life, for example, some Muslim who never believed in Jesus, that Muslim who lived in the year 1502 in the middle of the Ottoman Empire.

Yes; Jesus will not deny His grace and love, His advocacy, to anyone.
But they must want it.

That non-Christian Muslim unbeliever had his sins covered by Christ

Only if they turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.

according to your free-willian philosophical statement, but that Muslim died hell-bound, so the Advocate that you preach about is not the Advocate whom the Apostle John proclaims because your Advocate attempts but fails to cover sin resulting in your Advocate failing to give life, but the Advocate of John and I faithfully covers sin resulting in our Advocate giving Life (John 14:6) eternal to God's chosen persons (John 15:16).

The Advocate is available to anyone who will submit to God.
Jesus' advocacy requires our submission.

The conclusion of your "the whole world" meaning "every person everywhere in all time" in 1 John 2:2 is that Christ the Advocate is a failure, and no Christian believes that Christ is a failure.

Sorry you feel that way.
You think Jesus is denying His advocacy based on something, but you never say what it is.
It is their unwillingness to submit to Him.
You are intent on avoiding our own responsibility in the matter.

We Christians have the perfect Advocate!
We Christians believe the Christ exclusively chooses persons unto salvation:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16),

Said to the twelve apostles.

• so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

How do you know you were "chosen" ?

 

[rogerg]

Romans 11:28-32 (WEB) 28 Concerning the Good News, {{{they}}} are enemies for your sake. But {{{concerning the election}}}, {{{they}}} are beloved for the fathers’ [the Patriarchs] sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, 31 even so {{{these}}} also have now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they may also obtain mercy. 32 For God has bound all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. 26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, “There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob 27 This is my covenant with {{{them}}} [natural Israel], when I will take away their sins.” [Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34]

Who is the {{{they}}} and {{{them}}} that Paul speaks of?

The "they" Paul speaks of are the elect. Some of them are Jews. The "fulness" refers to the fullness of the Jews who are of the elect, but not all Jews are. The Israel of "all Israel" is spiritual Israel, not earthly Israel. All of the elect were all born disobedient as non-believers. None are righteous. Since none is any better than the other, and all are unworthy sinners, then God can grant His mercy upon them all (of them) equally.
That Jacob was mentioned, demonstrates that earthly Israel cannot be the one in view, otherwise, Esau would have had to be mentioned too, but he wasn't - because both were in the physical line of Abraham, yet only Jacob is of God's promise. Read these verses closely - they explain a lot. Hopefully, they will clarify the points I've been trying to make. From them, you can see that earthly Israel is the Israel of the bondwoman, but spiritual Israel is the Israel of God's promise - and which is the Israel above- spiritual Israel - the free Israel. So, there are two Israels not one, each representing a different covenant.

[Rom 9:7-8 KJV]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[Gal 4:22-26, 28 KJV]
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. ...
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

God will never forgive the sins of the non-elect, even of earthly Israel. Have all the Jews of earthy Israel been saved? Have they all come to faith in Christ to demonstrate that salvation? Will they? No! The only ones who have, and will, are the elect/saved Jews. If not all of earthly Israel becomes saved, then it is not possible that earthly Israel has a spiritual position with God. Otherwise, all of its Jews would become saved simply because they are of Israel, but they will not be. However, all who comprise spiritual Israel, both Jews and non-Jews alike, will and must become saved. This means that spiritual Israel has become the new bride, replacing earthly Israel, thereby being receiving the blessing and honor of being His bride, through Christ.
BYW - you added "natural Israel" to Isaiah 59" - not cool.
In the verses I provided previously to you, did you see that God divorced earthly Israel? Don't ignore it as it is a very important and pivotal point. Due to their infidelity and that divorce, as a nation, in terms of salvation, God ended His relationship with them.
I'll try to continue tomorrow to address some of your other points.

 

[brightfame52]

setst777

There is no granting the gift of believing for salvation; Not in the Gospel of the NT.

Oh yes it, its given in behalf of Christ to believe on Him for Salvation Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

That word given denotes a Gift of Grace, its the greek word charizomai:
to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to, gratify

1. to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent
2. to grant forgiveness, to pardon
3. to give graciously, give freely, bestow

The word is derived from charis:

1. a gift of grace

So we believe by grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Apparently you know nothing about Salvation by Grace, its all a Gift, even the Believing Faith

 

[brightfame52]

Do you often denigrate obedience to God in your doctrines ?
God made it possible FOR US TO WALK IN THE LIGHT.
If you can put one foot in front of the other, you are walking.
I'll give myself credit all day long for walking where I am supposed to.
It is my choice, you know.
As I will suffer for not walking in the light, I will also be rewarded for remaining true to the Lord.

Is answering the "call" also precluded in your doctrines ?
Is that also taking credit for myself ?

So God made it possible, you did the most important and effectual part.

 

[setst777]

The "they" Paul speaks of are the elect. Some of them are Jews. The "fulness" refers to the fullness of the Jews who are of the elect, but not all Jews are. The Israel of "all Israel" is spiritual Israel, not earthly Israel. All of the elect were all born disobedient as non-believers. None are righteous. Since none is any better than the other, and all are unworthy sinners, then God can grant His mercy upon them all (of them) equally.
That Jacob was mentioned, demonstrates that earthly Israel cannot be the one in view, otherwise, Esau would have had to be mentioned too, but he wasn't - because both were in the physical line of Abraham, yet only Jacob is of God's promise. Read these verses closely - they explain a lot. Hopefully, they will clarify the points I've been trying to make. From them, you can see that earthly Israel is the Israel of the bondwoman, but spiritual Israel is the Israel of God's promise - and which is the Israel above- spiritual Israel - the free Israel. So, there are two Israels not one, each representing a different covenant.

[Rom 9:7-8 KJV]
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[Gal 4:22-26, 28 KJV]
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. ...
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

God will never forgive the sins of the non-elect, even of earthly Israel. Have all the Jews of earthy Israel been saved? Have they all come to faith in Christ to demonstrate that salvation? Will they? No! The only ones who have, and will, are the elect/saved Jews. If not all of earthly Israel becomes saved, then it is not possible that earthly Israel has a spiritual position with God. Otherwise, all of its Jews would become saved simply because they are of Israel, but they will not be. However, all who comprise spiritual Israel, both Jews and non-Jews alike, will and must become saved. This means that spiritual Israel has become the new bride, replacing earthly Israel, thereby b eing receiving the blessing and honor of being His bride, through Christ.
BYW - you added "natural Israel" to Isaiah 59" - not cool.
In the verses I provided previously to you, did you see that God divorced earthly Israel? Don't ignore it as it is a very important and pivotal point. Due to their infidelity and that divorce, as a nation, in terms of salvation, God ended His relationship with them.
I'll try to continue tomorrow to address some of your other points.

Regarding the Passages I quoted, "they" and "them" are referring to Israel and Jews in context. You can deny it, but the Passages were clearly presented, which anyone on these boards will see, because these messages remain on these boards forever. Your denying that the "them" and "they" are referring to Israel will also permanently remain on these boards for anyone to see.

Israel is irrevocably God's Elect (Romans 11:28-29), but many Jews in Israel fell (Romans 11:22), and so they were "cut off." The ones "cut off" are no longer part of Elect Israel - the Olive Tree. Only those Jews who fear God remain Elect in Israel.

And the same is true for Christians. Christians become part of Elect Israel by faith, but they also can be cut off if they do not remain in the faith.

Romans 11:20-23 (WEB) 20 True; by their [natural Jews] unbelief they [natural Jews] were broken off, and you [Gentiles] stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches [natural Jews], neither will he spare you [Gentiles]. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell [natural Jews], severity; but toward you [Gentiles], goodness, if you [Gentiles] continue in his goodness; otherwise you [Gentiles] also will be cut off.

In "Romans 9:7-8" in the context, starting with "verse 1," and ends with Romans 11, does not negate the Passages I quoted regarding Israel; rather, in "Romans 9"Paul is differentiating natural Israel from those who are saved by grace through faith - Jews and Gentiles - the "children of the Promise" that began with Abraham, a righteousness that is by faith. And there were many natural Israelites who were faithful to God, starting with Abel in Genesis, and of which "Hebrews 11" gives us examples of the faith of the OT saints.

God will surely fulfill all His promises to natural Israel, the natural branches, just as God foretold.

Yes, God hardened Israel so they could not believe, repent, and so be saved. But God did not harden them for no reason. God hardened them because of their obstinately refusing him. God is just and holy, and will not purposely harden and eternally condemn anyone who did not deserve it.

If you feel that God will deliberately harden and eternally condemn people so they can never believe without a good reason, then I want no part of the god you believe in. My God, the God of the Bible, is righteous, holy, merciful, patient. God is Love. God is righteous in His judgments.

God mercy has its limits. God will even harden his own Elect, those that are part of Elect Israel, if they continually refuse His grace.

God will harden a sinner’s heart, and also will harden a Christian's heart, in punishment, who deliberately keeps on sinning, giving such persons over to their sinfulness (Romans 1:18-32; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Hebrews 10:24-31), whether permanently or temporarily (2 Timothy 2:25-26).

Once again,

If God has to harden someone's heart for repeatedly refusing his grace, then that means they already had the ability to respond in faith to the Gospel before God hardened them. No special regeneration was required to believe.

Romans 1:22-26 (WEB) 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools… 24 Therefore (for this reason) God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves; 25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (NIV) They perish because {{they refused to love the truth}} and so be saved. 11 {{{For this reason}}} God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned {{who have not believed the truth}} but have delighted in wickedness.

Israel, as a whole, refused God, and delighted in wickedness, and that is why God punished them with hardening.

Romans 10:21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” [Isaiah 65:2].

 

[setst777]

setst777



Oh yes it, its given in behalf of Christ to believe on Him for Salvation Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

That word given denotes a Gift of Grace, its the greek word charizomai:
to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favour to, gratify

1. to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent
2. to grant forgiveness, to pardon
3. to give graciously, give freely, bestow

The word is derived from charis:

1. a gift of grace

So we believe by grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Apparently you know nothing about Salvation by Grace, its all a Gift, even the Believing Faith

Philippians 1:29 (WEB) 29 Because it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf,

In the context of Philippians 1:29, God is not said to be the one granting, rather, this is what happens - it is granted to you. Therefore, “Philippians 1:29” is not saying God is giving you faith and suffering, but that it is freely granted to you to believe and suffer for him.

"It has been granted to you ... to believe... to suffer." The granting is to you to believe and to suffer for him.

The quote does not say:

"God gives you faith and suffering."

It is granted to you to believe and to suffer for Christ's sake. "Philippians 1:29" does not state that God gives us faith or suffering.

The word “given” means “granted” in context, and implies a fact and condition for belonging to Christ; in that, we are to not only believe in Jesus, but also to suffer for His sake, so that we may also share in His glory.

For instance: It is given on behalf of your graduation, not only to get a passing grade, but to also do much study to obtain that goal. So too, it is through faith and suffering that we obtain the salvation we seek. This process to salvation through faith and suffering is granted by God.

Romans 8:17 (WEB) and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

Acts 14:22 (WEB) strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many afflictions we must enter into God’s Kingdom.

The word “given” implies the plan of God for salvation in that, through the Gospel of Christ, we are invited to believe, and we are also promised suffering for Lord Jesus as a result. All are invited - Jew and Gentile alike.

Many are invited or called, but few will accept the invitation, and fewer yet will remain faithful to the end through the sufferings that the Christian will endure.

When God calls all people everywhere to salvation through faith in His Son, God does not show partiality (Matthew 22:1-14) or favoritism (Acts 10:34-35).

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (WEB) 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 22:9 (WEB) Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.

Acts 13:47 (WEB)
For so has the Lord commanded us, saying, ‘I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.’” [Isaiah 49:6]

Romans 11:32 (WEB) 32 For God has bound all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.

Isaiah 45:22 (WEB)
Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

However, God’s plan of election is to save whosoever believes (John 3:14-17). Those who refuse God’s grace, remained condemned (John 3:18). The Scriptures always teach that the responsibility is on each person to believe or reject the grace of God.

John 3:14-18 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

The Gift of Grace is received by faith (John 3:16).

In "Acts 18:27-28," no one could believe in Lord Jesus if not for the grace of the Gospel extended to them. However, extending the Gospel to them, does not guarantee that all will believe in God's gracious provision. Nevertheless, it is because of the Gospel that we come to believe in Lord Jesus (Romans 10:17).

That is what that Passage is stating:

Acts 18:27-28 (WEB) 27 When he had determined to pass over into Achaia, the brothers encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him. When he had come, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; 28 {{{for}}} he powerfully refuted the Jews, publicly showing by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

The reason given after word "for" (vs. 28) is telling us how they believed through grace. Notice, the grace was offered to them by the Gospel word ("the Scriptures") that was preached. Therefore; after hearing The Gospel Word (the grace offered), many did believe. They believed because of the grace extended to them by the Gospel Message.

 

[JLB]

Ludicrous reply. You understand neither salvation nor Calvinism and your reply demonstrates that.
You would do yourself well just to remain silent.

You will have to do better than just slandering me.

Attacking me and the scriptural position I have conveyed seems to be the standard MO of the Calvinist spirit.


Saul of Tarsus was lost; a Pharisee that persecuted the Church.

He considered Jesus a false teacher and a false prophet like the rest of Judaism. Saul of Tarsus considered His followers the same way.

He became saved, and became a follower of Jesus Christ, and was eventually after many years made an apostle.

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 1 Timothy 1:12-16


So the idea that Saul of Tarsus was lost and permanently lost forever s nothing but rubbish and false doctrine. This is what brightfame52 is trying to teach this community.

Is this what you believe as well?







JLB

 

[rogerg]

Regarding the Passages I quoted, "they" and "them" are referring to Israel and Jews in context. You can deny it, but the Passages were clearly presented, which anyone on these boards will see, because these messages remain on these boards forever. Your denying that the "them" and "they" are referring to Israel will also permanently remain on these boards for anyone to see.

Israel is irrevocably God's Elect (Romans 11:28-29), but many Jews in Israel fell (Romans 11:22), and so they were "cut off." The ones "cut off" are no longer part of Elect Israel - the Olive Tree. Only those Jews who fear God remain Elect in Israel.

And the same is true for Christians. Christians become part of Elect Israel by faith, but they also can be cut off if they do not remain in the faith.

Romans 11:20-23 (WEB) 20 True; by their [natural Jews] unbelief they [natural Jews] were broken off, and you [Gentiles] stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches [natural Jews], neither will he spare you [Gentiles]. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell [natural Jews], severity; but toward you [Gentiles], goodness, if you [Gentiles] continue in his goodness; otherwise you [Gentiles] also will be cut off.

In "Romans 9:7-8" in the context, starting with "verse 1," and ends with Romans 11, does not negate the Passages I quoted regarding Israel; rather, in "Romans 9"Paul is differentiating natural Israel from those who are saved by grace through faith - Jews and Gentiles - the "children of the Promise" that began with Abraham, a righteousness that is by faith. And there were many natural Israelites who were faithful to God, starting with Abel in Genesis, and of which "Hebrews 11" gives us examples of the faith of the OT saints.

God will surely fulfill all His promises to natural Israel, the natural branches, just as God foretold.

Yes, God hardened Israel so they could not believe, repent, and so be saved. But God did not harden them for no reason. God hardened them because of their obstinately refusing him. God is just and holy, and will not purposely harden and eternally condemn anyone who did not deserve it.

If you feel that God will deliberately harden and eternally condemn people so they can never believe without a good reason, then I want no part of the god you believe in. My God, the God of the Bible, is righteous, holy, merciful, patient. God is Love. God is righteous in His judgments.

God mercy has its limits. God will even harden his own Elect, those that are part of Elect Israel, if they continually refuse His grace.

God will harden a sinner’s heart, and also will harden a Christian's heart, in punishment, who deliberately keeps on sinning, giving such persons over to their sinfulness (Romans 1:18-32; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Hebrews 10:24-31), whether permanently or temporarily (2 Timothy 2:25-26).

Once again,

If God has to harden someone's heart for repeatedly refusing his grace, then that means they already had the ability to respond in faith to the Gospel before God hardened them. No special regeneration was required to believe.

Romans 1:22-26 (WEB) 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools… 24 Therefore (for this reason) God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves; 25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (NIV) They perish because {{they refused to love the truth}} and so be saved. 11 {{{For this reason}}} God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned {{who have not believed the truth}} but have delighted in wickedness.

Israel, as a whole, refused God, and delighted in wickedness, and that is why God punished them with hardening.

Romans 10:21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” [Isaiah 65:2].

Okay, once again, I see you are unable to grasp that salvation is only by Christ and not by linage. I clearly showed
you from the Bible that it tells us of two different Israels, symbolic of two different covenants: one of grace through Christ, one of works. The covenant of works is earthly Israel, but for some reason, you are unable or unwilling to accept or comprehend that. God set forth only ONE true salvation and that is through/by Christ alone, not by nation nor by any other grouping. If you can't accept Christ as the Saviour, and instead choose to manufacture a different salvation plan when no other salvation plan is possible, then I don't know how else to explain it to you: you reject the most fundamental tenet of Christianity and the Bible, upon which, all the rest of it has been built by God, and therefore, in effect, you reject Christianity as a whole.
I will tell you that I am not going to put forth the time and effort to reply to each and every one of your points (though I could), which you've based upon false doctrine and false understanding, because to do so, would be meaningless and a waste of time - and you wouldn't comprehend it anyway.
Do you consider yourself a Christan? If so, then how is it that do you not believe in Christ alone as the Saviour?

 

[rogerg]

Attacking me at the scriptural position I have conveyed seems to be the standard MO of the Calvinist spirit.


Saul of Tarsus was lost; a Pharisee that persecuted the Church.

He considered Jesus a false teacher and a false prophet like the rest of Judaism. Saul of Tarsus considered His followers the same way.

He became saved, and became a follower of Jesus Christ, and was eventually after many years made an apostle.

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 1 Timothy 1:12-16


So the idea that Saul of Tarsus was lost and permanently lost forever s nothing but rubbish and false doctrine. This is what brightfame52 is trying to teach this community.

Is this what you believe as well?







JLB

Wrong! You do not understand the doctrine and you're as far wrong as you could be. Permanently lost? That's absurd! If you did find it somewhere, then repost it so we can see it and understand where you're coming from.
It makes no sense. In fact, we say just the opposite, and I can't see how it is possible for you to have reasonably and fairly come to that conclusion.

 

[setst777]

Okay, once again, I see you are unable to grasp that salvation is only by Christ and not by linage. I clearly showed
you from the Bible that it tells us of two different Israels, symbolic of two different covenants: one of grace through Christ, one of works. The covenant of works is earthly Israel, but for some reason, you are unable or unwilling to accept or comprehend that. God set forth only ONE true salvation and that is through/by Christ alone, not by nation nor by any other grouping. If you can't accept Christ as the Saviour, and instead choose to manufacture a different salvation plan when no other salvation plan is possible, then I don't know how else to explain it to you: you reject the most fundamental tenet of Christianity and the Bible, upon which, all the rest of it has been built by God, and therefore, in effect, you reject Christianity as a whole.
I will tell you that I am not going to put forth the time and effort to reply to each and every one of your points (though I could), which you've based upon false doctrine and false understanding, because to do so, would be meaningless and a waste of time - and you wouldn't comprehend it anyway.
Do you consider yourself a Christan? If so, then how is it that do you not believe in Christ alone as the Saviour?

These are your unfounded opinions. My message, that you just replied to, I clearly differentiated the New Covenant in Christ from the Old Covenant.

In my post, which you quoted, and just replied to, here is what I wrote concerning the covenants, which you stated I am unwilling or unable to accept or comprehend. Anyone can see for themselves that your opinions cannot be trusted.

<<<
setst777 said:
In "Romans 9:7-8" in the context, starting with "verse 1," and ends with Romans 11, does not negate the Passages I quoted regarding Israel; rather, in "Romans 9" Paul is differentiating natural Israel from those who are saved by grace through faith - Jews and Gentiles - the "children of the Promise" that began with Abraham, a righteousness that is by faith. And there were many natural Israelites who were faithful to God, starting with Abel in Genesis, and of which "Hebrews 11" gives us examples of the faith of the OT saints.
>>>

As well, how many times have I quoted "John 3:14-18," clearly revealing what the Gospel of the NT is in contrast to Calvinist, who teach that God discriminately elects and saves some so they can believe. In striking contrast to what the Calvinists teach as the Gospel, "John 3:14-18" teaches that God loves the world, and gave His Son, so that whosoever believes has eternal life.

If you feel that God will deliberately harden and eternally condemn people so they can never believe without a good reason, then I want no part of the god you believe in. My God, the God of the Bible, is righteous, holy, merciful, patient. God is Love. God is righteous in His judgments.

God mercy has its limits. God will even harden his own Elect, those that are part of Elect Israel, if they continually refuse His grace.

God will harden a sinner’s heart, and also will harden a Christian's heart, in punishment, who deliberately keeps on sinning, giving such persons over to their sinfulness (Romans 1:18-32; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Hebrews 10:24-31), whether permanently or temporarily (2 Timothy 2:25-26).

Once again,

If God has to harden someone's heart for repeatedly refusing his grace, then that means they already had the ability to respond in faith to the Gospel before God hardened them.

No regeneration was required to believe.

Romans 1:22-26 (WEB) 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools… 24 Therefore (for this reason) God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves; 25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (NIV) They perish because {{they refused to love the truth}} and so be saved. 11 {{{For this reason}}} God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned {{who have not believed the truth}} but have delighted in wickedness.

Israel, as a whole, refused God, and delighted in wickedness, and that is why God punished them with hardening.

Romans 10:21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” [Isaiah 65:2].

 

[rogerg]

These are your unfounded opinions. My message, that you just replied to, I clearly differentiated the New Covenant in Christ from the Old Covenant.

In my post, which you quoted, and just replied to, here is what I wrote concerning the covenants, which you stated I am unwilling or unable to accept or comprehend. Anyone can see for themselves that your opinions cannot be trusted.

<<<
setst777 said:
In "Romans 9:7-8" in the context, starting with "verse 1," and ends with Romans 11, does not negate the Passages I quoted regarding Israel; rather, in "Romans 9" Paul is differentiating natural Israel from those who are saved by grace through faith - Jews and Gentiles - the "children of the Promise" that began with Abraham, a righteousness that is by faith. And there were many natural Israelites who were faithful to God, starting with Abel in Genesis, and of which "Hebrews 11" gives us examples of the faith of the OT saints.
>>>

As well, how many times have I quoted "John 3:14-18," clearly revealing what the Gospel of the NT is in contrast to Calvinist, who teach that God discriminately elects and saves some so they can believe. In striking contrast to what the Calvinists teach as the Gospel, "John 3:14-18" teaches that God loves the world, and gave His Son, so that whosoever believes has eternal life.

If you feel that God will deliberately harden and eternally condemn people so they can never believe without a good reason, then I want no part of the god you believe in. My God, the God of the Bible, is righteous, holy, merciful, patient. God is Love. God is righteous in His judgments.

God mercy has its limits. God will even harden his own Elect, those that are part of Elect Israel, if they continually refuse His grace.

God will harden a sinner’s heart, and also will harden a Christian's heart, in punishment, who deliberately keeps on sinning, giving such persons over to their sinfulness (Romans 1:18-32; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Hebrews 10:24-31), whether permanently or temporarily (2 Timothy 2:25-26).

Once again,

If God has to harden someone's heart for repeatedly refusing his grace, then that means they already had the ability to respond in faith to the Gospel before God hardened them.

No regeneration was required to believe.

Romans 1:22-26 (WEB) 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools… 24 Therefore (for this reason) God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves; 25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason, God gave them up to vile passions.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (NIV) They perish because {{they refused to love the truth}} and so be saved. 11 {{{For this reason}}} God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned {{who have not believed the truth}} but have delighted in wickedness.

Israel, as a whole, refused God, and delighted in wickedness, and that is why God punished them with hardening.

Romans 10:21 But about Israel he says, “All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” [Isaiah 65:2].

Do you believe that anyone is, or can be saved outside of Christ? Yes, or no?

 

[setst777]

Do you believe that anyone is, or can be saved outside of Christ? Yes, or no?

No

 

[rogerg]

No

Then you can't believe that earthly Israel is God's nation. If you do, then you contradict yourself because that would not by Christ but by earthly Israel. You can't have it both ways.

 

[brightfame52]

Philippians 1:29 (WEB) 29 Because it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf,

In the context of Philippians 1:29, God is not said to be the one granting, rather, this is what happens - it is granted to you. Therefore, “Philippians 1:29” is not saying God is giving you faith and suffering, but that it is freely granted to you to believe and suffer for him.

"It has been granted to you ... to believe... to suffer." The granting is to you to believe and to suffer for him.

The quote does not say:

"God gives you faith and suffering."

It is granted to you to believe and to suffer for Christ's sake. "Philippians 1:29" does not state that God gives us faith or suffering.

The word “given” means “granted” in context, and implies a fact and condition for belonging to Christ; in that, we are to not only believe in Jesus, but also to suffer for His sake, so that we may also share in His glory.

For instance: It is given on behalf of your graduation, not only to get a passing grade, but to also do much study to obtain that goal. So too, it is through faith and suffering that we obtain the salvation we seek. This process to salvation through faith and suffering is granted by God.

Romans 8:17 (WEB) and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

Acts 14:22 (WEB) strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many afflictions we must enter into God’s Kingdom.

The word “given” implies the plan of God for salvation in that, through the Gospel of Christ, we are invited to believe, and we are also promised suffering for Lord Jesus as a result. All are invited - Jew and Gentile alike.

Many are invited or called, but few will accept the invitation, and fewer yet will remain faithful to the end through the sufferings that the Christian will endure.

When God calls all people everywhere to salvation through faith in His Son, God does not show partiality (Matthew 22:1-14) or favoritism (Acts 10:34-35).

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (WEB) 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 22:9 (WEB) Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.

Acts 13:47 (WEB)
For so has the Lord commanded us, saying, ‘I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.’” [Isaiah 49:6]

Romans 11:32 (WEB) 32 For God has bound all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.

Isaiah 45:22 (WEB)
Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

However, God’s plan of election is to save whosoever believes (John 3:14-17). Those who refuse God’s grace, remained condemned (John 3:18). The Scriptures always teach that the responsibility is on each person to believe or reject the grace of God.

John 3:14-18 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

The Gift of Grace is received by faith (John 3:16).

In "Acts 18:27-28," no one could believe in Lord Jesus if not for the grace of the Gospel extended to them. However, extending the Gospel to them, does not guarantee that all will believe in God's gracious provision. Nevertheless, it is because of the Gospel that we come to believe in Lord Jesus (Romans 10:17).

That is what that Passage is stating:

Acts 18:27-28 (WEB) 27 When he had determined to pass over into Achaia, the brothers encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him. When he had come, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; 28 {{{for}}} he powerfully refuted the Jews, publicly showing by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

The reason given after word "for" (vs. 28) is telling us how they believed through grace. Notice, the grace was offered to them by the Gospel word ("the Scriptures") that was preached. Therefore; after hearing The Gospel Word (the grace offered), many did believe. They believed because of the grace extended to them by the Gospel Message.

Show you scripture truth and you explain it away. Believing in Christ is a gift of grace.

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

So the idea that Saul of Tarsus was lost and permanently lost forever s nothing but rubbish and false doctrine. This is what @brightfame52 is trying to teach this community.

I never said Paul was permanently lost forever, so please remove that post !

 

[brother Paul]

The writer of Hebrews wrote Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Now honestly, did the writer write here that Christ tasted death for all mankind without exception here ? Nope he did not. In the original man isnt in the verse:

τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν Ἰησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου

Man was added by the translators. The word pas can refer to all the whole, the sum total of all the group intended. Context is important n determining the group that the writer has in mind. Lets look at the very next verse 10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Bingo, its the many sons that e suffered and died for, or tasted death for, The word many polys:

many, much, large, many, numerous, great

He tasted death for many Sons, a great number of them, everyone of them. This is important,, because later in the same epistle the writer uses the adjective many again to denote who He tasted death for Heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

See to taste death back in Heb 2:9 is the exact same thing as " to bear the sins of many;" again, the many Sons of vs 10, everyone of the sons is who He tasted death for, not all of mankind without exception.

See Isa 53:11

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

He tasted death for ALL but only those who accept Him and the work He was sent to do will gain the benefit. Read Revelations 3:20 for one example (there are many) where it reads "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

He is knocking on ALL doors, but not ALL will open (they choose to be their own lord - Genesis 3:5)! As John says in chapter 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to BECOME the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name..."!

 

[brightfame52]

He tasted death for ALL but only those who accept Him and the work He was sent to do gains the benefit. Reas Revelations 3:20 for one example (there are many) where it reads "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

He is knocking on ALL doors but not ALL will open! As John says as many as receive Him BECOME,,,the children of God

All for whom He tasted death for, that taste of death brings them to Glory Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

If a person doesnt make it to Glory, then Jesus didnt taste death for them, simple as that.

 

[JLB]

JLB


I never said Paul was permanently lost forever, so please remove that post !

From your post 1927 —

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

The lost can never believe it, because its hid. The word hid here is in the perfect tense, so its done once and for all !

This is the phrase I am referring to —

• so its done once and for all !

Paul was lost at one time, being a Pharisee and a persecutor of the Church.


Paul is a biblically example of why the lost can indeed be saved, and why your false doctrine is poison to Church Community.




JLB