The 7th-Day Sabbath?

[reba]

Re: What is your belief about the 7th. Day Sabbath?

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[Joe Domingo]

Re: What is your belief about the 7th. Day Sabbath?

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

Fixed

 

[reba]

Re: What is your belief about the 7th. Day Sabbath?

My post was not AT any one member.... just a reminder to all members Thanks Joe

 

[George Muller]

Well I will let the scriptures speak for themself, I think most
Christians can understand the point of these scriptures?

George - those scriptures do not contradict with anything that I have said in my post? They agree with all that I have said.

I am not trying to "contradict" just expressing the righteousness of the New Covenant and how through the Spirit the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us.

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

 

[JCitoL]

Re: What is your belief about the 7th. Day Sabbath?

Wow. That is about the most detailed explanation I've seen in quite awhile. It's actually pretty interesting. Having spent a little time on the Sabbath matters with various camps the above is very similar to a Christian/Kabbalistic mystic blend that carries the general connotation that the Sabbath as it pertains to GODS RESTING is, for all intents and purposes, 'The GOD WHO LOST HIMSELF' on that 'Day.' I find such depictions, shall we say, interesting, primarily because the handlers have put some thought to the matters. Not that I would accept that other than as it may particular apply to this dimension of creation or some other possibility, that God is tied up doing something else in some other arena. Maybe visiting with His Eternal Buddies somewhere in the great undefined?

the true God is in a state of half-sleep so that He is so (much) awake as far as to uphold at least e.g. the atoms and molecules so as not to disintegrate, and to gives some life to the human/ensouled beings

Meaning 'perpetual Sabbath' above or what? Not clear on how you are trying to tie those matters together to the ones prior. s

the true God must be awoken until He is already completely and permanently awake

Blessings

 

[JCitoL]

Re: What is your belief about the 7th. Day Sabbath?

Wow, that's one long sentence. I need an 8th Day's rest, and a long breath, after that Who "awakened" God to send Jesus while he was "snoozing"?

He is always more or less awake, because He is in a state of half-sleep, (and) then He can be more awake for some people, while less awake for others - He can turn out awake to a different extent for every human depending on/according to the relevant factors, e.g. see how much He was awake for Jesus and His disciples after They were able to purify, save, heal and resurrect so many people - the act of the right faith wakes Him

Blessings

 

[smaller]

Re: What is your belief about the 7th. Day Sabbath?

Wow. That is about the most detailed explanation I've seen in quite awhile. It's actually pretty interesting. Having spent a little time on the Sabbath matters with various camps the above is very similar to a Christian/Kabbalistic mystic blend that carries the general connotation that the Sabbath as it pertains to GODS RESTING is, for all intents and purposes, 'The GOD WHO LOST HIMSELF' on that 'Day.' I find such depictions, shall we say, interesting, primarily because the handlers have put some thought to the matters. Not that I would accept that other than as it may particular apply to this dimension of creation or some other possibility, that God is tied up doing something else in some other arena. Maybe visiting with His Eternal Buddies somewhere in the great undefined?

the true God is in a state of half-sleep so that He is so (much) awake as far as to uphold at least e.g. the atoms and molecules so as not to disintegrate, and to gives some life to the human/ensouled beings

Meaning 'perpetual Sabbath' above or what? Not clear on how you are trying to tie those matters together to the ones prior. s

the true God must be awoken until He is already completely and permanently awake

Blessings

Technically speaking in the 'spiritual sense' (I know, a paradox) The Sabbath has already been made and entered into by God.

And it is also interestingly true that His Spirit remains at work and in force.

There may be several ways to approach the understandings of Sabbath. For example, God, having therein entered already knows the end game and is happily engaged in suffering with us through to the end because He Is Resting in the conclusion already.

So, picture God in two general arena's. Still suffering with His creation in 'patience' mode, which is btw a characteristic of His Eternal Spirit, long suffering. And Him also resting in the finality of the exercises, knowing the outcome will be spiritually (technically) Perfect, exactly as designed and planned.

In the Spiritual Sabbath that is yet to come, the suffering part is finalized and will no longer exist. This is in fact part of the promises of the Gospel. The ending of death and suffering.

Having to view the matters of Sabbath as some day of the week and an exercise in men's trumped up rituals in a gathering (as if that somehow changes the present facts of our realities) for me will remain a rather entirely lame approach to the subject matter.

And equally lame is the demand to respect opinions of 'believers' who seek to eternally kill or eternally damage other believers over the subject matter. Such really just need an upgrade in their own heads and hearts IMHO.

s

 

[Joe Domingo]

And equally lame is the demand to respect opinions of 'believers' who seek to
eternally kill or eternally damage other believers over the subject matter.
Such really just need an upgrade in their own heads and hearts IMHO.

This is your opinion. No one has power to "eternally kill" anyone sir.

Jesus said, do not fear him who can destroy your body, but be very afraid of him that can destroy both body and soul in hell fire.

So far as I'm concern - you are simply trying to manipulate with these words that you tend to repeat over and over.

May I add that it is never a bad thing to promote the blessings of God. It can only improve a person's life. I have acknowledged the seventh day Sabbath since I was 15 years old - I have never felt burdened by it. I always felt good about it.

An even deeper part of this discussion is this ...

What IF ...

What if it is the ultimate Satanic plan to keep God's children in a constant state of rebellion by a continuous breaking of God's Holy and Royal Law?

 

[smaller]

Someone had asked me on another thread - how do I observe the Sabbath?

My answer to that question comes in the form of a question - How do you commit adultery in your Heart?

I often try to 'discuss' this subject with legalists. It's a difficult conversation to have.

From a christian perspective, most sensible christians know they have bad thoughts, and such bad thoughts often come out of left field when we least expect them. Blindsided some call it.

Jesus was clear that evil thoughts defile us.

It is therefore pointless to sit in a pew on Saturday or any other day of the week thinking ourselves 'legally compliant' when we know that bad thoughts defile us, even IMperfect thoughts, and therefore the external exercises are just a show, not a truthful reflection of 'internally defiled factual reality.'

That 'false show' I can not participate in if that is what is held up as the 'agreement' to participate because to me that is sanctioning a lie and participating in a lie. I first came into this understanding several decades ago when after going through certain 'ritualistic demands' of a certain sect, repentance, confession, contrition, communion, that even before I got the infamous wafer in my mouth my mind had already been hacked and attacked by evil/defiling thoughts. Which 'fact' by the Spirit of Truth led me on quite a long scriptural journey to discover why that is a fact.

The main goal being to defeat my own mind.

I have been successfully defeated. No smart comments required.

enjoy!

s

 

[Joe Domingo]

It is therefore pointless to sit in a pew on Saturday or any other day of the
week thinking ourselves 'legally compliant'

Here is where I think you lack a clear understanding.

I have never thought myself as legally compliant by sitting on a pew on the Sabbath.

What I have always thought is that I get to enjoy such a great benefit of exiting out of the World if you will for a whole day. It is entirely up to me what I do with it. I can worship, sing, praise, witness, sleep, climb a mountain and enjoy God's creation. But what I will not do is stay busy with the affairs of the world. Sabbath for me is ME and God time.

You do greatly misunderstand.

 

[smaller]

This is your opinion. No one has power to "eternally kill" anyone sir.

That's really not the point. The 'point' is that such have merely taken that 'thought' and 'intention' into their own heart. The reality of it is as you say, only in their own mind. And in that they have done themselves no favors.

Jesus expanded on this matter when He told the Pharisees that they were trying to kill Him over Sabbath issues. They were incredulous at the disclosure. "Who is trying to kill you!?" was their response.

Well, that 'inner intention' eventually made it's way to the exterior didn't it?

Many 'christians' only accelerate the matter to other believers where it's no longer stoning, but now a more polite measure of eternal death or dismemberment.

Is it more civil? Probably not in my mind. Just an unfortunate mindset for them is all.

In my view God can wipe that away anytime HE wants to, but He doesn't. In fact God more often pours gasoline on such things over the courses of time so that the problem is recognized and an opportunity to repent and change comes about, which is a much more pleasant experience internally.

Jesus said, do not fear him who can destroy your body, but be very afraid of him that can destroy both body and soul in hell fire.

So far as I'm concern - you are simply trying to manipulate with these words that you tend to repeat over and over.

Actually it's usually a fact right out of the mouths of the carriers. I merely observe it.

May I add that it is never a bad thing to promote the blessings of God. It cannot only improve a person's life. I have acknowledged the seventh day Sabbath since I was 15 years old - I have never felt burdened by it. I always felt good about it.

An even deeper part of this discussion is this ...

What IF ...

What if it is the ultimate Satanic plan to keep God's children in a constant state of rebellion by a continuous breaking of God's Holy and Royal Law?

The fact of this matter ended for me when I discerned that the tempter was the source of the internal hacking and evil thoughts.

I no longer consider that it is possible to make that bad actor 'legally obedient' or 'under Grace.' Because 'in that effort' I am trying to sneak the tempter into the equation. That can not happen. It is also the 'reason' why most of us can't align on these issues.

There are more interesting ways to deal with this subject matter.

s

 

[Joe Domingo]

Let me bring this back to the forefront...

What if it is the ultimate Satanic plan to keep God's children in a constant state of rebellion by a continuous breaking of God's Holy and Royal Law?

Now in the Mosaic law of penalties and sacrifices, a provision is made not just for willful sins and but sins committed unknowingly as well.

So how does that translate to Jesus Christ.

Well we know that Jesus' blood was shed for the sins of the World, both for willful sinners and unwitting sinners as well. Such as little children who are born sinners.

It let's me know that even when God's children transgress the Sabbath God still forgives them through the blood of the Lamb. The same can be said for any Commandment that is transgressed. But when one steals or cheats and is a Christian - what does one do? But of course, they repent, they feel sorry. We all know that =- and the Lord is faithful and just to forgive us says the Word.

But how can you repent of something you don't know is wrong? Or something you have been taught is not a transgression? You don't.

Edit: Smaller, please spare me the pain. You win. Can this thread move on without anyone else being killed please lol

Actually - I'm out of it LOL

These types of thread are useless. Those of us who want to observe the Sabbath don't need anyone's permission. But I cvan promise you this - you Christians who oppose it DO THINK that we are UNDER THE LAW and therefore you do condemn us. I have family members that think this way so I know what I'm talking about. You are only fooling yourselves.

Let me expand on this (You are only fooling yourselves) before I leave.

What I mean is this.

Some of you think we are being judgmental and condemning those who do not observe the Sabbath, but I have found it to be true the other way as well. So when you think about it, any of us that fall into these two patterns are just hypocrites. Because we are all condemning each other.

 

[smaller]

Let me bring this back to the forefront...

What if it is the ultimate Satanic plan to keep God's children in a constant state of rebellion by a continuous breaking of God's Holy and Royal Law?

There isn't 'a plan,' but has been a fact from the beginning.

There should be no doubt by any of us after a read through the Gospels that Satan operates 'in man' and does so primarily as both tempter and Word thief. This factually happens to all of us.

Belief doesn't grant us immunity from the internal battles Joe. If anything those battles are meant to strengthen our faith and our resolve against that worker and his intentions. SO, in effect, when the fact is recognized that 'tension bringer' is actually a reverse form of A SERVANT to us. We are demanded by our Father to REIGN OVER Satan in our own minds and bodies.

We don't 'do that' by ignoring the fact of the presence of the tempter within our minds and hearts.

We get to who 'we' are by division, knowing we are not that worker. The Spiritual tool of honesty is the first tool that God in Christ puts into our hand.

Now in the Mosaic law of penalties and sacrifices, a provision is made not just for willful sins and but sins committed unknowingly as well.

There is no ritual or practice that is going rid us of the tempter, or to sanctify that worker. It's a futile quest.

Where we read that Jesus came not for peace, but brings a SWORD this is meant to be swung 'INTERNALLY' against our 'internal adversary.'

I admit to having little patience with believers who have not yet come to the table of facts on this matter. And instead perpetually overlook the matters. That is in fact a sign of what is going on within them. They just don't know.

So how does that translate to Jesus Christ.

Well we know that Jesus' blood was shed for the sins of the World, both for willful sinners and unwitting sinners as well. Such as little children who are born sinners.

It let's me know that even when God's children transgress the Sabbath God still forgives them through the blood of the Lamb. The same can be said for any Commandment that is transgressed. But when one steals or cheats and is a Christian - what does one do? But of course, they repent, they feel sorry. We all know that =- and the Lord is faithful and just to forgive us says the Word.

We, all of us who believe, were entirely sanctified by HIS ACTION on the Cross. There is no payment remaining to be met.

None of that working and action is or can be effective for the tempter that we also carry.

When this is understood by any believer, the horizons begin to clear up considerably.

But how can you repent of something you don't know is wrong? Or something you have been taught is not a transgression? You don't.

One can hold up the law all the day long and the tempter within will violate it every single time by vile thoughts.

It's a fact of our present construction that is unavoidable. And it is the condition of all mankind, presently.

s

 

[Joe Domingo]

Wow! The Tempter is busy! Sounds like the Tempter needs a Sabbath Rest:toofunny

I'm sorry! I know I promised to exit out of this but I had to put out a funny! Maybe that's the better way to leave - go out with a bang! LOL

It's been real.

 

[smaller]

Wow! The Tempter is busy! Sounds like the Tempter needs a Sabbath Rest:

I'm sorry! I know I promised to exit out of this but I had to put out a funny! Maybe that's the better way to leave - go out with a bang! LOL

It's been real.

If you ever figure out that is a real internal working you'll never ever sit in the pew thinking you are 'legally obedient,' ever again.

At that point DECEPTION stops.

s

 

[chessman]

because He is in a state of half-sleep, (and) then He can be more awake for some people, while less awake for others - He can turn out awake to a different extent for every human depending on/according to the relevant factors

JC, I’m not sure how literally (versus figuratively) you mean this statement and others like it. I’m just not the type of person that speaks figuratively. I also recognize that at places within Scripture God does use figurative language (parables and such) to prove His point. But, on the other hand, the points that He makes are not figurative, just the language used.

So in trying to determine what Scripture actually teaches about the significance of the 7th Day Sabbath, when I read the Bible starting at Gen 1:1 and read God created the heavens and the Earth. That doesn’t sound like He was in a “half-sleep” or that He was “depending on the relevant factors [meaning humans]”. Obviously He could not then be depending on any relevant factors attributable to any human as there were no humans for God to be dependent on. Ah, yes. But that was One Day and prior to the 7th-Day Sabbath.

When I read further and God’s Word first discusses the 7th Day (Sabbath) it says:

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
​

So at this point in God’s Word, the 7th Day (Sabbath) is introduced to us, it simply indicates the reality that God rested from His work of creation that He had done [Heavens, Earth, Land masses, plants, animals, man]. It does not indicate that He is “snoozing” or “asleep” in any way other than there is no more creative acts (And God said…) occurring. No more “higher animals/creatures” beyond the first humans, Adam/Eve, that is. [A fact plainly observable in Nature that Atheists and Materialists struggle to explain why that is the case, to this day] As a side note, if someone reading this doesn’t believe it’s a struggle for them, then read “Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False, Thomas Nagal” straight from an Atheist/Materialist’s mouth. http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Cosmos-M...8&qid=1367590070&sr=1-1&keywords=thomas+nagel

But I then read on studying more about the significance of the Sabbath, the very first use of the word “Sabbath” is in Ex 16 and God’s Word there says:

Exodus 16:29 See, the Lord has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”
​

The literal point here (again not figuratively speaking) as I read is that the Sabbath was given by the Lord to His people, not the other way around. I don’t see any contingency of God via people’s actions, introduced here. I also read on and find out why He gave the Sabbath to His people. For what purpose that is. What is the Sabbath FOR (the therefore in Deut 5 and Ex 31)

Exodus 31: 14 Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. … 17 It [Sabbath] is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.

Deuteronomy 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.
​

So God’s Word tells me once again, that it’s God’s “mighty hand” and “outstretched hand” that brought His people out of Egypt [sin], not the other way around. His Sabbath day command was “therefore” a sign (yes a “command” but also a sign) that literally showed His people just how powerful, effective and loving toward His people He could be (plagues, parting of the Red Sea, manna, etc.). But my point here is that again, I don’t see any contingency in God relative to the Sabbath observance as your statement indicates by “depending on/according to the relevant factors”. If anything, it’s plain from Scripture that the Sabbath was for man’s benefit, not God’s “awakening” from ”a state of half-sleep”.

Ah, yes, someone might say but that’s all Old Testament. So what/how does Jesus and the New Covenant change any contingency of God relative to the Sabbath or “awaken” God from his “half-sleep”.

So I read on into the New Testament (covenant) what God’s Word says about Sabbath. Its first mention is in Matt 12:

Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
​

So here we see straight away, in a very literal way, that Jesus and His disciples did what was “un-lawful” in the minds of the Pharisees. To my way of thinking, that’s a very real indication that something’s up here with regard to a New Sabbath for a New Covenant. But, that’s not my point here. It’s more about finding where in Scripture that it teaches this “awakening” of God and God “depending on relative factors” that you mention about the 7th Day Sabbath.
But I read on and Jesus himself says:

8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
​

Again, that doesn’t teach there’s a dependence element to the Sabbath or that God is awakened by any action of man via Sabbath observance (day 1 or day 7).

Then Mark’s Gospel records Jesus making this point even clearer:

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
​

Then John records why it is we should take Jesus’ words about the Sabbath literally:

John 5:18 [ Jesus’ Equality with God ] For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
​

Then I read Paul the apostle’s point about the Sabbath:

Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
​

Then I read in Hebrews all about the entire purpose, history and meaning of the Sabbath in Hebrews (the whole book really) but I’ll just point to:

Hebrews 4: 8 For if Joshua [old law/commandment/covenant] had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that [Jesus]. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God….

11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
​

So my question for you is where do you get this idea of

because He is in a state of half-sleep, (and) then He can be more awake for some people, while less awake for others - He can turn out awake to a different extent for every human depending on/according to the relevant factors

when God’s Word says all that I have posted above and “there is no creature hidden from His sight”?

It just doesn’t indicate that God is ever in a “state of half-sleep” or “awake for some”.

Can you provide some Scripture that supports your statement?

 

[Joe Domingo]

If you ever figure out that is a real internal working you'll never ever sit
in the pew thinking you are 'legally obedient,' ever again.

I don't want you to get away with that stab so I sent you a PM.

As I said. I am out of this useless conversation.

 

[smaller]

If you ever figure out that is a real internal working you'll never ever sit
in the pew thinking you are 'legally obedient,' ever again.

I don't want you to get away with that stab so I sent you a PM.

As I said. I am out of this useless conversation.

If you think the facts noted have no bearing on the subject that is certainly an opinion. And you certainly don't have to state why having disobedient temptation within would not effect a believers status as 'supposedly legally compliant.' But I know that's a stretch if believers haven't thought about it at all.

Oh well.

s

 

[John 8:32]

Would you make the same comments about legally compliant concerning the 6th Commandment?

 

[smaller]

Moving past some of the more 'elemental reasoning' factors on the Sabbath, the issue of Gods Sabbath was also placed on the table.

Paul basically shows how this current environment is set up regarding the role of God the Father and God in the Son in 1 Cor. 15 that sheds a bit more light on the particulars of the 'shadow of rest' we have in the Sabbath Law(s) and the coming reality:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The True Sabbath Rest is when 'all' enemies are defeated.

No one rests when there are still 'enemies.'

When some posters may say that the Sabbath that God entered into was 'sleep' or that 'God lost Himself' I try not to be alarmist on principles, but to understand it more that our present creation was placed entirely UNDER THE SON OF GOD until many certain matters are completed. And God in the meantime has been in fact RESTING, waiting for the Son to complete ALL HIS WORK that has been assigned to Him.

Then comes the final rest, when ALL the enemies are eradicated and we all know The Father in the most intimate fashions that we can not currently imagine.

That is all on the horizon, aka The Sabbath Rest, currently conveyed into our present shadow land environment.

No use straining at the inevitable. In the meantime we all have our exercises and our orders to follow.

The Sabbath, in the Spirit, will be the entering of that LAST DAY when the power of death is PRIOR destroyed that our current creation suffers under. The Saturday Last Day Spiritual event of the Sabbath we go INTO apart from that ENEMY and all enemies and we ALL REST with The Father and The Son.

What many see in the 'external calendar' on Saturday, a day of the physical week sense, is merely a shadow of what is to come.

s